Picture my surprise. Of course you ignore anything that proves you wrong. You were clearly shown that your calculation was very wrong and BSM is not strong for 26/33 matchups, but only to 8/22, so you're obviously wrong about its performance against "most decks". Nerfs made more decks able to deal with BSM and even after it evolved it lost a lot of its popularity. Yes, it is still strong, popular, able to highroll, but it's not a major problem anymore.
And 2 more things - you try to use data to say Mage is the second most successful class. Which is very deceptive and irrelevant, because we discuss BSM not Mage as a class. Mage has other sucessful decks, namely Elemental Mage and Spell Mage. Elemental Mage gets better winrate than BSM after nerfs even at lower ranks. And it doesn't have this highroll pattern you mentioned.
You also try to prove your point that it's specifically Mage that gets these highroll archetypes, which is again not true at all as I mentioned other classes in history of Hearthstone that also got such archetypes.
And although I know you ignore data, but I'll still quote Vicious Syndicate:
Big-Spell Mage’s performance has significantly declined outside of legend, while remaining unchanged at legend. It’s not difficult to explain this. The deck has undoubtedly gotten weaker, with its power relaxing for the large majority of players. At higher levels of play, players are more effective at targeting decks in general. With Big-Spell Mage’s play rate on the decline, there is less incentive to target it at the expense of other matchups, so even though it’s a worse deck in a vacuum, it’s facing a more comfortable field. Note that Big-Spell Mage’s play rate could settle near a 10% play rate at top legend when the dust settles.
The balance changes were clearly successful at curbing the deck, without outright killing it. There are plenty of decks on ladder that perform at the same level or better, but Big-Spell Mage remains very popular. This supports the notion that its popularity was not just a function of its power, but there’s a strong audience for its playstyle.
"I hate this deck because it feels so bad to lose to" is a perfectly reasonable position and has been the reason for nerfs for loads of decks throughout Hearthstone's lifespan. There's nothing wrong with saying that's the reason you hate a deck.
If you add "...and it's objectively too strong and it doesn't have enough bad matchups" as a reason then you open yourself up to people looking at its winrate and matchups. Which is what people have been doing here.
The issue the BSM haters have is the former not the latter. Arguing that the latter is true, and then continuing to do so when you're presented with evidence that disproves it, looks a bit silly. It's fine, you got that bit wrong, maybe the deck still needs a nerf but just because of how it feels to play against, not because it's crushing the meta.
I'm agnostic on whether it should be nerfed more or not. Personally I haven't had bad experiences with it, seems like it's in an OK place to me. If enough people are finding it so frustrating as TheMage obviously is then sure, go ahead and nerf it again. I haven't seen anyone talking about how great the deck is and how much fun they're having playing it.
And I can only speak anecdotally here because there isn't data to support the position that it needs more nerfs.
Bob wants to buy a new spoon. He goes to a kitchen appliance store with his friend. The salesman says, I've got these two spoons, spoon A and spoon B. He says, spoon A is 500$. The Bob's friend says: ''Wow! What a rip off!'' The salesman says: ''Ok but Spoon B is 5000$''. Bob says: ''Well turns out spoon A wasn't a rip off after all!''
(a spoon normally costs 10$).
Moral of the story: if A is bad and B is worse, it doesn't mean that A isn't bad. It just means they're both bad and one is even worse than the other. The more you know!
Bob wants to buy a new spoon. He goes to a kitchen appliance store with his friend. The salesman says, I've got these two spoons, spoon A and spoon B. He says, spoon A is 500$. The Bob's friend says: ''Wow! What a rip off!'' The salesman says: ''Ok but Spoon B is 5000$''. Bob says: ''Well turns out spoon A wasn't a rip off after all!''
(a spoon normally costs 10$).
Moral of the story: if A is bad and B is worse, it doesn't mean that A isn't bad. It just means they're both bad and one is even worse than the other. The more you know!
Pretty on point. If i post several screens of Games against mage that goes that way (not really uncommon) one can guess what answer of "sure that just happen the 0,0...............% of the time" but hey, its a cool screen.
It is ridiculous even trying to compare board that Mage can make turn 4 to this. But sure, you made a point and you must stick to it no matter what, I'll go for this laugh I promised.
Zizka, some people will argue about a rip off long after the spoon that costed 500$ doesn't cost 500$ anymore ;) and strangely they will say nothing about these 5000$ spoons that still exist. How blind can they be?
Moral of the story: if A is bad and B is worse, it doesn't mean that A isn't bad. It just means they're both bad and one is even worse than the other. The more you know!
Either you have some fancy spoons or you're spending too much on spoons.
I row 1h30 every day seven days a week and when I do, I always watch streamers playing HS. I’ve never once seen that Druid screenshot happen to any of the streamers I’ve watched. On the other hand, before the patch, I’ve seen BSM pull tsunami turn 4-5 so often I’d tell myself “here we go again”. Granted, that t4 druid is bullshit and shouldn’t happen (as it’s borderline unwinnable even more so than t4 tsunami with BSM) but unless I’ve just been in a vacuum and it’s a common thing, it’s not frequent enough to warrant nerfing the cards involved. If it were common, there’d be an outcry about it just like there was with BSM. I’m sure we could have a high roll thread where everyone posts screenshots of that lucky/unlucky time.
I think the patch did do something. It’s still not a deck I’d find fun playing/play against but it did turn it down significantly. I find most decks in the current meta to be boring DH, pain/insanity warlock, mage, armor warrior so I’ll stick to my decision to wait. Most fun deck I’ve seen this meta is tesspiomage rogue with to a or randomness and heroes but it’s never played because it can’t compete in most control games and you have to be really good at the game to run it. If they ever allow us to block a class (like they choose to do in tournaments), that’d change my mind. I’d block mage and start playing again.
I wish there was a way to encourage off-meta decks but I don’t know how this could be implemented. I can’t imagine playing this meta for a few more months before the next expansion. I can’t recall an expansion becoming stale this quick, which might be because how little impact the miniset had. They could switch things up by buffing some miniset cards so that they would see play.
Sure, but no reason to discuss what happened before patch. I agree patch was needed. I just wanted to show Druid can be a bigger highroller than Mage.
Is waiting for new meta a good choice though? I don't think it will be better. Wishing Well Rogue is tier 4 just like it was tier 4 before mini set which boosted BSM and Ramp Druid. I also don't think this meta is very stale yet, for example Mech Tourist Rogue is a new approach to an old archetype, same with Odin Warrior, some older archetypes returned even without playing new cards, like Rainbow Shaman.
So meta is not very stale, but you could say nothing really new emerged in a long time (BSM was there before miniset release).
“I agree patch was needed.” I thought you were part of the “just adapt to the meta” crowd where no design mistakes are ever done and it’s just up to the players to adapt to whatever is out there. Glad to see you’re not.
It doesn’t matter if Druid can high roll BSM in a more egregious way if it seldom/very rarely happens. It’s a moot point not worth bringing up as as a comparative argument since BSM high rolled much more reliably which warranted the patch to drop. Case closed.
As for the meta, you have a higher tolerance to playing identical decks than I do. Like, just thinking about facing another DH makes me shiver. I usually crush that deck mind you as I run tons of removal but it’s boring after 200 times. The play pattern is borderline identical. Once in a blue moon you’d face snake warlock. One game out of a 100? Less? Opponent? Warlock. T1 gem elemental: conclusion? Popgsr + crescendo incoming. For some people, that’s fine. They can bear the repetitiveness. I find there are a lot of things I enjoy more than experiencing the same play patterns.
I haven’t played since miniset but decks I’d find tolerable/fun to play against are DK, priest and control warrior (I play wheel) and sometimes Druid (provided it’s not seabreeze chalice). The rest I find horrid. I’ve watched people play weapon rogue and that doesn’t strike me as fun either. Cliff dive shaman looks fun to play against too.
I choose to do things I enjoy so it’s the right choice for me, yes.
Yeah, this sucks, LOL. Its just 3 massive mana cheat decks with a few outliers sprinkled in. Its BS Mage, Or whichever Druid/Shaman deck that pulls 3 HUGE minions out of their deck on like turn 5/6. Thats fair and fun. You need to git gud and play around it. :). I know.
Really though....what is the point? How much longer until they do something about this? Your only option is to play hand barf demon hunter then? Gee.
Wait, Warrior is back to being unbeatable. LOL. The taunt mech version or Brann/ Reno. Terrific. Love this meta and the direction of the game. It’s fun. Excellent.
This is one of those bad metas, where if you make a deck that consistently loses to the top 7(ish) decks and the top 5 classes it's really hard to climb.
Watched Kibler playing Reno Priest today. He stopped a couple of hours in. I went to check to get how much time he played when but it switched to a Magic the Gathering Stream. I think he must've played for a couple of hours? Maybe less? This is based off memory.
He's a fairly calm and collected person. Anyways, he lost I think most games but the way he lost. I wish I had taken some notes but it was mostly tons of damage directly from hand as in, the opponents killed straight from hand without any previous setup (or simply having a the windfury horn in hand). He said that it was, in his opinion, that it was a design flaw and the goal of HS is actually the opposite. He added that some major design choices would need to be made to turn back that current trend which is, according to him, a mistake. He then quit and played Magic.
You could argue that it did require setup because the opponent had to have enough time to draw the necessary combo to OTK but I don't think this is a philosophy which would carry a card game in the long run. It's unfortunate but he did what I did, stopped playing until things change.
This is one of those bad metas, where if you make a deck that consistently loses to the top 7(ish) decks and the top 5 classes it's really hard to climb.
Yeah, something like that. Game sucks right now. Fact.
Nobody plays these decks now, everyone is just going XL DK.
Edit: ok, I'm wrong, seems XLBSM is the best deck right now, lol.
The funniest thing is that it's not Skyla or King Tide that make it problematic. It was unrefined before trying to be a gimmick deck instead of control and not playing its best card, the Galactic Projection Orb. With current iteration it's a completely different deck and completely different discussion.
Guys, do yourself a favor and stop arguing with people that will not listen to you and just blatantly ignore your arguments and given stats.
They do not want to discuss, they want to reinforce their own opinion. It sucks, but some people are just like that.
And also from reading the posts here, I am most certainly sure that "TheMage" is a rage bait troll, so please do not feed them...
Picture my surprise. Of course you ignore anything that proves you wrong. You were clearly shown that your calculation was very wrong and BSM is not strong for 26/33 matchups, but only to 8/22, so you're obviously wrong about its performance against "most decks". Nerfs made more decks able to deal with BSM and even after it evolved it lost a lot of its popularity. Yes, it is still strong, popular, able to highroll, but it's not a major problem anymore.
And 2 more things - you try to use data to say Mage is the second most successful class. Which is very deceptive and irrelevant, because we discuss BSM not Mage as a class. Mage has other sucessful decks, namely Elemental Mage and Spell Mage. Elemental Mage gets better winrate than BSM after nerfs even at lower ranks. And it doesn't have this highroll pattern you mentioned.
You also try to prove your point that it's specifically Mage that gets these highroll archetypes, which is again not true at all as I mentioned other classes in history of Hearthstone that also got such archetypes.
And although I know you ignore data, but I'll still quote Vicious Syndicate:
"I hate this deck because it feels so bad to lose to" is a perfectly reasonable position and has been the reason for nerfs for loads of decks throughout Hearthstone's lifespan. There's nothing wrong with saying that's the reason you hate a deck.
If you add "...and it's objectively too strong and it doesn't have enough bad matchups" as a reason then you open yourself up to people looking at its winrate and matchups. Which is what people have been doing here.
The issue the BSM haters have is the former not the latter. Arguing that the latter is true, and then continuing to do so when you're presented with evidence that disproves it, looks a bit silly. It's fine, you got that bit wrong, maybe the deck still needs a nerf but just because of how it feels to play against, not because it's crushing the meta.
I'm agnostic on whether it should be nerfed more or not. Personally I haven't had bad experiences with it, seems like it's in an OK place to me. If enough people are finding it so frustrating as TheMage obviously is then sure, go ahead and nerf it again. I haven't seen anyone talking about how great the deck is and how much fun they're having playing it.
And I can only speak anecdotally here because there isn't data to support the position that it needs more nerfs.
One more time anyone tries to mention how Mage is the best highroll deck and I will start laughing hysterically...
Bob wants to buy a new spoon. He goes to a kitchen appliance store with his friend. The salesman says, I've got these two spoons, spoon A and spoon B. He says, spoon A is 500$. The Bob's friend says: ''Wow! What a rip off!'' The salesman says: ''Ok but Spoon B is 5000$''. Bob says: ''Well turns out spoon A wasn't a rip off after all!''
(a spoon normally costs 10$).
Moral of the story: if A is bad and B is worse, it doesn't mean that A isn't bad. It just means they're both bad and one is even worse than the other. The more you know!
Pretty on point. If i post several screens of Games against mage that goes that way (not really uncommon) one can guess what answer of "sure that just happen the 0,0...............% of the time" but hey, its a cool screen.
It is ridiculous even trying to compare board that Mage can make turn 4 to this. But sure, you made a point and you must stick to it no matter what, I'll go for this laugh I promised.
Zizka, some people will argue about a rip off long after the spoon that costed 500$ doesn't cost 500$ anymore ;) and strangely they will say nothing about these 5000$ spoons that still exist. How blind can they be?
This is 500$ spoon game (yep, believe it or not, after turn 4 skyla into tsunami)
Either you have some fancy spoons or you're spending too much on spoons.
I row 1h30 every day seven days a week and when I do, I always watch streamers playing HS. I’ve never once seen that Druid screenshot happen to any of the streamers I’ve watched. On the other hand, before the patch, I’ve seen BSM pull tsunami turn 4-5 so often I’d tell myself “here we go again”. Granted, that t4 druid is bullshit and shouldn’t happen (as it’s borderline unwinnable even more so than t4 tsunami with BSM) but unless I’ve just been in a vacuum and it’s a common thing, it’s not frequent enough to warrant nerfing the cards involved. If it were common, there’d be an outcry about it just like there was with BSM. I’m sure we could have a high roll thread where everyone posts screenshots of that lucky/unlucky time.
I think the patch did do something. It’s still not a deck I’d find fun playing/play against but it did turn it down significantly. I find most decks in the current meta to be boring DH, pain/insanity warlock, mage, armor warrior so I’ll stick to my decision to wait. Most fun deck I’ve seen this meta is tesspiomage rogue with to a or randomness and heroes but it’s never played because it can’t compete in most control games and you have to be really good at the game to run it. If they ever allow us to block a class (like they choose to do in tournaments), that’d change my mind. I’d block mage and start playing again.
I wish there was a way to encourage off-meta decks but I don’t know how this could be implemented. I can’t imagine playing this meta for a few more months before the next expansion. I can’t recall an expansion becoming stale this quick, which might be because how little impact the miniset had. They could switch things up by buffing some miniset cards so that they would see play.
Sure, but no reason to discuss what happened before patch. I agree patch was needed. I just wanted to show Druid can be a bigger highroller than Mage.
Is waiting for new meta a good choice though? I don't think it will be better. Wishing Well Rogue is tier 4 just like it was tier 4 before mini set which boosted BSM and Ramp Druid. I also don't think this meta is very stale yet, for example Mech Tourist Rogue is a new approach to an old archetype, same with Odin Warrior, some older archetypes returned even without playing new cards, like Rainbow Shaman.
So meta is not very stale, but you could say nothing really new emerged in a long time (BSM was there before miniset release).
“I agree patch was needed.”
I thought you were part of the “just adapt to the meta” crowd where no design mistakes are ever done and it’s just up to the players to adapt to whatever is out there. Glad to see you’re not.
It doesn’t matter if Druid can high roll BSM in a more egregious way if it seldom/very rarely happens. It’s a moot point not worth bringing up as as a comparative argument since BSM high rolled much more reliably which warranted the patch to drop. Case closed.
As for the meta, you have a higher tolerance to playing identical decks than I do. Like, just thinking about facing another DH makes me shiver. I usually crush that deck mind you as I run tons of removal but it’s boring after 200 times. The play pattern is borderline identical. Once in a blue moon you’d face snake warlock. One game out of a 100? Less? Opponent? Warlock. T1 gem elemental: conclusion? Popgsr + crescendo incoming. For some people, that’s fine. They can bear the repetitiveness. I find there are a lot of things I enjoy more than experiencing the same play patterns.
I haven’t played since miniset but decks I’d find tolerable/fun to play against are DK, priest and control warrior (I play wheel) and sometimes Druid (provided it’s not seabreeze chalice). The rest I find horrid. I’ve watched people play weapon rogue and that doesn’t strike me as fun either. Cliff dive shaman looks fun to play against too.
I choose to do things I enjoy so it’s the right choice for me, yes.
Yeah, this sucks, LOL. Its just 3 massive mana cheat decks with a few outliers sprinkled in. Its BS Mage, Or whichever Druid/Shaman deck that pulls 3 HUGE minions out of their deck on like turn 5/6. Thats fair and fun. You need to git gud and play around it. :). I know.
Really though....what is the point? How much longer until they do something about this? Your only option is to play hand barf demon hunter then? Gee.
Wait, Warrior is back to being unbeatable. LOL. The taunt mech version or Brann/ Reno. Terrific. Love this meta and the direction of the game. It’s fun. Excellent.
So the problems are:
1. Big spell Mage
2. Elemental Mage
3. Whichever druid deck
4. whichever shaman deck
5. Hand barf demon hunter
6. Taunt mech Warrior
7. Highlander Warrior
This is one of those bad metas, where if you make a deck that consistently loses to the top 7(ish) decks and the top 5 classes it's really hard to climb.
Watched Kibler playing Reno Priest today. He stopped a couple of hours in. I went to check to get how much time he played when but it switched to a Magic the Gathering Stream. I think he must've played for a couple of hours? Maybe less? This is based off memory.
He's a fairly calm and collected person. Anyways, he lost I think most games but the way he lost. I wish I had taken some notes but it was mostly tons of damage directly from hand as in, the opponents killed straight from hand without any previous setup (or simply having a the windfury horn in hand). He said that it was, in his opinion, that it was a design flaw and the goal of HS is actually the opposite. He added that some major design choices would need to be made to turn back that current trend which is, according to him, a mistake. He then quit and played Magic.
You could argue that it did require setup because the opponent had to have enough time to draw the necessary combo to OTK but I don't think this is a philosophy which would carry a card game in the long run. It's unfortunate but he did what I did, stopped playing until things change.
Ok, we got Renathal back, happy now? :P
Yeah, something like that. Game sucks right now. Fact.
Nobody plays these decks now, everyone is just going XL DK.
Edit: ok, I'm wrong, seems XLBSM is the best deck right now, lol.
The funniest thing is that it's not Skyla or King Tide that make it problematic. It was unrefined before trying to be a gimmick deck instead of control and not playing its best card, the Galactic Projection Orb. With current iteration it's a completely different deck and completely different discussion.
Got a link to prove this? ** Found the Spell Mage player **. As you were. :)