I don’t understand why they don’t make a quick easy change to brann, something like “your first battlecry every turn is doubled”. Would help stop some of the BS combos that are around. Also the card was given for free for the season they should be gutting that card while it’s in standard, After the first few months of abuse.
It’s simple: people are buying packs in order to get certain cards that combo well with Brann. Nerfing Brann would be a big punch in the face for those players. But don’t worry, a sec assured us that Brann will be on vacation next rotation. How long will his vacation last? I don’t know, we’ll see.
I have zero hope for the game now. They keep printing mana cheating cards which result in stupidly early, game winning plays. This expac. has created an OTK deck using Thadius that can kill on turn 6 and shaman decks that can reliably get a good 10 mana minion on turn 2 - 4. Even a relatively "fair" paladin deck can dump a colossal amount of stats on turn 6/7 then follow up with (you guessed it) more mana cheat to steal games in the late game.
We're back to an OTK-aggro counter meta which is just shit and basically represents the battle of "who drew the best". So much fun!
I firmly believe the devs have zero idea what they're doing at this stage (or are cynically just milking the player base for every last cent before it dies).
I think there's a reason why content creators are moving away from HS to other games - they're just not having fun, and if you're playing 5 days a week there has to be some enjoyment.
p.s. "Discover" as a key-word needs to die. It's an over used, un-fun mechanic which, like other keywords, should have stayed with the expac it was created in.
I for once like mana cheat if it’s not too early, and random / discover cards are the prime reason why hs is still fun, and the big difference to real life card games
I have zero hope for the game now. They keep printing mana cheating cards which result in stupidly early, game winning plays. This expac. has created an OTK deck using Thadius that can kill on turn 6 and shaman decks that can reliably get a good 10 mana minion on turn 2 - 4. Even a relatively "fair" paladin deck can dump a colossal amount of stats on turn 6/7 then follow up with (you guessed it) more mana cheat to steal games in the late game.
We're back to an OTK-aggro counter meta which is just shit and basically represents the battle of "who drew the best". So much fun!
I firmly believe the devs have zero idea what they're doing at this stage (or are cynically just milking the player base for every last cent before it dies).
I think there's a reason why content creators are moving away from HS to other games - they're just not having fun, and if you're playing 5 days a week there has to be some enjoyment.
p.s. "Discover" as a key-word needs to die. It's an over used, un-fun mechanic which, like other keywords, should have stayed with the expac it was created in.
I for once like mana cheat if it’s not too early, and random / discover cards are the prime reason why hs is still fun, and the big difference to real life card games
Mana cheat and discover can be fun and do add variance to most games - I agree.
The problem is that right now mana cheat is so aggressive and is happening on early game turns when there's very little you can do about it.
OTK's just shouldn't be able to pop off on turn 6. You shouldnt be able to get 10 mana minions down on turn 2. These plays are often game winning on their own. No skill, no thought, just flat out luck and/or overpowered and badly designed cards.
The designers love affair with discounting mana has taken this game in a terrible direction imo. Pretty much every problem interaction/combo can be traced back to mana discounts in some way (or having > 10 mana). Often these are completely broken, other times they're just really unfun and unfair to play against if you're playing one of the negelcted classes which cant cheat. I don't want to watch my opponent destroy my board, play a bunch of minions, draw some cards and still have mana left over at the end. I also don't want to watch the 4th Rune of the Archmage being played before the mage is even at 9 mana.
As for discover - I loved it as a mechanic when it first came out. Now it's been overused, particularly in Death Knight where it's become another tiresome mechanic. "Oh look - I need to play around a 7 mana "The Scourge" against a blood DK. Look how I was outplayed". Great - he got a Brann -> School Teacher - > Antimagic shell (x2) for a mini bloodlust board buff. Should have played around that too. Wow - 3 Mograines...
You get the picture.
I've said it before in other threads, but Blizz needs to go back to basics about how cards games are meant to work. There are "rules" that need to be followed otherwise things break.
Mana = power. Things should cost mana. Similar mana cost cards should have similar power.
Card draw = cost. Cards are resources - they should cost mana and tempo. You give up tempo now for more options later.
Resources are finite = you shouldn't be able to just dump your hand over and over and created endless boards of stuff. Aggro should run out of resources eventualy.
There are lots of issues with the game right now. You just don't get to see them now because Thadius has killed you on turn 2....
I don’t understand why they don’t make a quick easy change to brann, something like “your first battlecry every turn is doubled”. Would help stop some of the BS combos that are around. Also the card was given for free for the season they should be gutting that card while it’s in standard, After the first few months of abuse.
It’s simple: people are buying packs in order to get certain cards that combo well with Brann. Nerfing Brann would be a big punch in the face for those players. But don’t worry, a sec assured us that Brann will be on vacation next rotation. How long will his vacation last? I don’t know, we’ll see.
True.
That said, though, a big punch in the face is most probably what all those players would actually deserve. And I mean it literally, not only metaphorically.
I've said it before in other threads, but Blizz needs to go back to basics about how cards games are meant to work. There are "rules" that need to be followed otherwise things break.
True, but they have a new target audience and this new target audience doesn't care about traditional card game design or balanced gameplay. They demand big spectacular turns and short games. And the only way to combine that is by allowing players to make these big turns early in the game. It sucks but it's the only reasonable explanation why they keep doubling down on this direction of the game despite the backlash of many players imo.
There isn't a "game" if they allow these things to exist. Right now the design essentially means there's 2 people playing their own deck trying to win first. Interaction with the opponent is pretty minimal. I'm sure some people must find it fun, but personally I dont, and I can't understand the logic behind these design decisions.
I'm all for spectacular turns (to a point) but these should be at 10 mana (or require a bit of set up). Take the priest Hero. In theory her battle cry could be extremely powerful, but it requires multiple turns of setting things up before it does anything good. That's the type of big turns the game should be looking to encourage, not some high-roll turn 2 nonsense. We've endured a year of bullshit with the latest sets. Denathrius, Astalor, Guff, DH OTK, Big Spell Mage, Brann, Theif Rogue, Deathrattle rogue - all contributed to an extremely un-fun game (imo). Now they've printed more and we can expect more shit for the next year.
It's almost like Blizz decides which class will be OP for the next cycle and prints hugely synergistic cards for that class. Look at imp-lock. A deck which was already doing OK and can do some stupidly powerful stuff early doors to end games fast. It can already build massive boards quickly, draw cards cheaply, buff single minions, curse the opponent (if you go down that line), mini bloodlust effect/buff. Now it can have a sticky board for 2 mana. "But there are drawbacks to these cards - they limit you to imps!" I hear you say. Such a drawback in a deck built around imp synergy.
Funny because imp lock is way closer to traditional hs decks then the other things mentioned. It’s more like modern day token druid.
mana cheat always depends on the amount of mana cheated and the timing. Cheating big undeads turn 5/6 with warlock slime or big demons back in the day is fine. It’s a big swing at a point of time where many decks could have answers if they decide to play them. Turn 2 10 drop in shaman is to early (as is turn 3 neptulon in wild with big priest) because it wins the game on the spot most of the time. The balance is very difficult, since without mana cheat the game would be boring as fuck.
discover is easily fixed: it’s never ever a problem in wild because of the large pool of bad cards (only dk has a good spell pool, but that deck (blood) really needs this since it sucks balls, even unholy dk doesn’t run discover cards). The solution for standard is simple: just let the cards discover from the wild card pool. Yes, there will be highrolls. But most of the time the cards will be horrible. Same with evolve pool, just make it so that it includes all cards. Deck of lunacy is another great example: was busted in standard with limited pool, and was always bad in wild
I honestly wish that every time a card is revealed in some expansion, they would tell us their thought process.
I genuinely am curious as to how they thought this Mini-Set would be fine. Like why would you make evolves even more consistent now? They already have efficient mass evolves through Convincing Disguise or Primordial Wave. Who honestly thought that printing Blazing Transmutation and Thaddius, Monstrosity at the same time would be an awesome idea? Especially since Shamans can cheat out a Goldshire Gnoll as early as Turn 2 thanks to Schooling.
The problem isnt shaman- the problem is the game is fucking ass because the skill level is almost non existent anymore. Everytime i play it - i turn it off after 1 game because its just sooo dumb. The people who play are mostly very slow players, who need to rope every turn to figure out the most obvious shit and then again its just dumb af. Losing to someone who isnt able to count to 13- seems like a good game!
but no, srsly outsmarting the meta is also part of the game. Miniset got us comboing so im gonna try and play around by disrupting combo pieces.
My first take is Shaman Murloc package - Clownfish into Mutanus, Bolner into double Parrot. This new freeze card can even get us another copy of any of this.
Also win to autoconcede on turn1 bc opp thinks u play evolve
I'm not really sure how anyone can defend the current state of shaman, and the notion that dirsuption effects are going to do the job is very misguided. Most disruption effects come online by turn 6 or 7 - you're dead by then against shaman. Freeze and chip damage just delay the problem till next turn, and a 10/10 is still a big problem. Even if you can remove it you've used up a bunch of turns and resources and the shaman just does it again the next turn.
The only class that can reasonably counter turn 2/3, 10 mana minions is priest, and priest has a whole lot of other problems to make it a class not worth playing.
I know these get posted all the time, but this is turn 4. I've also played Bru'kan in addition to the two 10 mana minions. So we have ~ 32 mana worth of stuff on the board at turn 4. All this without schooling being played. He should have have played around it suppose....
I know these get posted all the time, but this is turn 4. I've also played Bru'kan in addition to the two 10 mana minions. So we have ~ 32 mana worth of stuff on the board at turn 4. All this without schooling being played. He should have have played around it suppose....
I'm not really sure how anyone can defend the current state of shaman, and the notion that dirsuption effects are going to do the job is very misguided. Most disruption effects come online by turn 6 or 7 - you're dead by then against shaman. Freeze and chip damage just delay the problem till next turn, and a 10/10 is still a big problem. Even if you can remove it you've used up a bunch of turns and resources and the shaman just does it again the next turn.
The only class that can reasonably counter turn 2/3, 10 mana minions is priest, and priest has a whole lot of other problems to make it a class not worth playing.
i see ur points as well as i agree with you all i already poured my salt above, just wanted to give options and thoughts
Ive been playing standard for years, through the release of DH, the Galakrond Shaman fiasco, that one Topsy Turvy Priest deck during Boomsday, and when Switcheroo used to swap minions’ attack as well as health, among many others. But i still don’t think i have ever seen something as ridiculous as a turn 2 11/11 with taunt. They essentially turned standard into wild.
Rumour has it Team 5 is a bunch of actors who learn their scripts when it comes to make announcements. The real think tank, the one behind lock and key, is actually a bunch of contraband chimpanzees chained to their typewriters. Whoever can type a coherent sentence first gets a banana. This explains the sometimes questionnable decisions such as Denathtrius, buffing Implock and evolve shaman.
Just a bunch of primates doing their best.
@lvbunch of numbers: Honestly, why do you even play that broken trash anyway? I swear, the userbase is as much a problem as Team 5 relentless incompetence.
i have been playing since the beta of this game, believe me close to every expansion use to have this where 1 deck is really strong and overtook the meta. back then you saw jades every single game and there wasnt a really clear counter to them, druid just ramped up. armored threw it and if you werent playing any sort of face hunter deck you just lost
What frustrates me the most is that these things are often easily predictable in advance of the cards being released. People theorycraft broken stuff literally minutes after the cards are released, and yet Blizz seam unable or cynically unwilling (more sales) to forecast these problems.
When demon hunter was released everyone could see that the cards were completely broken. And lo and behold - DH was broken. The same is true for shaman. As soon as Thaddius, Monstrosity and Blazing Transmutation were revealed people were saying it would be broken, and as sure as shit, it's broken.
I'm prepared to give Blizz the benefit of the doubt when an unexpected overpowered deck emerges using old un-played cards. But when a tier 1 deck gets a new card which is obviously overpowered and a new mana cheating minion is released benefiting the same deck, you have to assume it's incompetance.
Personally I think the cleanest way to resolve this is to fix mana costs (and spell costs) to the value that they cost when played. i.e a gnoll played for 4 mana becomes a 5 mana minion when evolved (or it's cost on board remains "live" based on hand size). A mage spell discounted below 5 mana wont get replayed with Grey Sage Parrot.) I actually think there's potential for a whole new genre of spells that effect minions based on mana cost that could be exploited with "live" mana costs, but that's an aside...
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It’s simple: people are buying packs in order to get certain cards that combo well with Brann. Nerfing Brann would be a big punch in the face for those players. But don’t worry, a sec assured us that Brann will be on vacation next rotation. How long will his vacation last? I don’t know, we’ll see.
It doesn’t make sense to nerf a card that was wild and will be wild in 2 months for standard when it never was a problem in wild
I for once like mana cheat if it’s not too early, and random / discover cards are the prime reason why hs is still fun, and the big difference to real life card games
Mana cheat and discover can be fun and do add variance to most games - I agree.
The problem is that right now mana cheat is so aggressive and is happening on early game turns when there's very little you can do about it.
OTK's just shouldn't be able to pop off on turn 6. You shouldnt be able to get 10 mana minions down on turn 2. These plays are often game winning on their own. No skill, no thought, just flat out luck and/or overpowered and badly designed cards.
The designers love affair with discounting mana has taken this game in a terrible direction imo. Pretty much every problem interaction/combo can be traced back to mana discounts in some way (or having > 10 mana). Often these are completely broken, other times they're just really unfun and unfair to play against if you're playing one of the negelcted classes which cant cheat. I don't want to watch my opponent destroy my board, play a bunch of minions, draw some cards and still have mana left over at the end. I also don't want to watch the 4th Rune of the Archmage being played before the mage is even at 9 mana.
As for discover - I loved it as a mechanic when it first came out. Now it's been overused, particularly in Death Knight where it's become another tiresome mechanic. "Oh look - I need to play around a 7 mana "The Scourge" against a blood DK. Look how I was outplayed". Great - he got a Brann -> School Teacher - > Antimagic shell (x2) for a mini bloodlust board buff. Should have played around that too. Wow - 3 Mograines...
You get the picture.
I've said it before in other threads, but Blizz needs to go back to basics about how cards games are meant to work. There are "rules" that need to be followed otherwise things break.
Mana = power. Things should cost mana. Similar mana cost cards should have similar power.
Card draw = cost. Cards are resources - they should cost mana and tempo. You give up tempo now for more options later.
Resources are finite = you shouldn't be able to just dump your hand over and over and created endless boards of stuff. Aggro should run out of resources eventualy.
There are lots of issues with the game right now. You just don't get to see them now because Thadius has killed you on turn 2....
True.
That said, though, a big punch in the face is most probably what all those players would actually deserve. And I mean it literally, not only metaphorically.
True, but they have a new target audience and this new target audience doesn't care about traditional card game design or balanced gameplay.
They demand big spectacular turns and short games.
And the only way to combine that is by allowing players to make these big turns early in the game.
It sucks but it's the only reasonable explanation why they keep doubling down on this direction of the game despite the backlash of many players imo.
There isn't a "game" if they allow these things to exist. Right now the design essentially means there's 2 people playing their own deck trying to win first. Interaction with the opponent is pretty minimal. I'm sure some people must find it fun, but personally I dont, and I can't understand the logic behind these design decisions.
I'm all for spectacular turns (to a point) but these should be at 10 mana (or require a bit of set up). Take the priest Hero. In theory her battle cry could be extremely powerful, but it requires multiple turns of setting things up before it does anything good. That's the type of big turns the game should be looking to encourage, not some high-roll turn 2 nonsense. We've endured a year of bullshit with the latest sets. Denathrius, Astalor, Guff, DH OTK, Big Spell Mage, Brann, Theif Rogue, Deathrattle rogue - all contributed to an extremely un-fun game (imo). Now they've printed more and we can expect more shit for the next year.
It's almost like Blizz decides which class will be OP for the next cycle and prints hugely synergistic cards for that class. Look at imp-lock. A deck which was already doing OK and can do some stupidly powerful stuff early doors to end games fast. It can already build massive boards quickly, draw cards cheaply, buff single minions, curse the opponent (if you go down that line), mini bloodlust effect/buff. Now it can have a sticky board for 2 mana. "But there are drawbacks to these cards - they limit you to imps!" I hear you say. Such a drawback in a deck built around imp synergy.
Funny because imp lock is way closer to traditional hs decks then the other things mentioned. It’s more like modern day token druid.
mana cheat always depends on the amount of mana cheated and the timing. Cheating big undeads turn 5/6 with warlock slime or big demons back in the day is fine. It’s a big swing at a point of time where many decks could have answers if they decide to play them. Turn 2 10 drop in shaman is to early (as is turn 3 neptulon in wild with big priest) because it wins the game on the spot most of the time. The balance is very difficult, since without mana cheat the game would be boring as fuck.
discover is easily fixed: it’s never ever a problem in wild because of the large pool of bad cards (only dk has a good spell pool, but that deck (blood) really needs this since it sucks balls, even unholy dk doesn’t run discover cards). The solution for standard is simple: just let the cards discover from the wild card pool. Yes, there will be highrolls. But most of the time the cards will be horrible. Same with evolve pool, just make it so that it includes all cards. Deck of lunacy is another great example: was busted in standard with limited pool, and was always bad in wild
I honestly wish that every time a card is revealed in some expansion, they would tell us their thought process.
I genuinely am curious as to how they thought this Mini-Set would be fine. Like why would you make evolves even more consistent now? They already have efficient mass evolves through Convincing Disguise or Primordial Wave. Who honestly thought that printing Blazing Transmutation and Thaddius, Monstrosity at the same time would be an awesome idea? Especially since Shamans can cheat out a Goldshire Gnoll as early as Turn 2 thanks to Schooling.
Was friends with Paladin, now Death Knights are my homies.
The problem isnt shaman- the problem is the game is fucking ass because the skill level is almost non existent anymore. Everytime i play it - i turn it off after 1 game because its just sooo dumb. The people who play are mostly very slow players, who need to rope every turn to figure out the most obvious shit and then again its just dumb af. Losing to someone who isnt able to count to 13- seems like a good game!
this is kind of a self roast those are rare lol.
but no, srsly outsmarting the meta is also part of the game. Miniset got us comboing so im gonna try and play around by disrupting combo pieces.
My first take is Shaman Murloc package - Clownfish into Mutanus, Bolner into double Parrot. This new freeze card can even get us another copy of any of this.
Also win to autoconcede on turn1 bc opp thinks u play evolve
Non brainer incoming... You dont even understand the point cuz your so used to this dumbery! Dumb mfer!
always nice to have a fun and interactive clean discussion with very good arguments and contributions from both sides
I'm not really sure how anyone can defend the current state of shaman, and the notion that dirsuption effects are going to do the job is very misguided. Most disruption effects come online by turn 6 or 7 - you're dead by then against shaman. Freeze and chip damage just delay the problem till next turn, and a 10/10 is still a big problem. Even if you can remove it you've used up a bunch of turns and resources and the shaman just does it again the next turn.
The only class that can reasonably counter turn 2/3, 10 mana minions is priest, and priest has a whole lot of other problems to make it a class not worth playing.
I know these get posted all the time, but this is turn 4. I've also played Bru'kan in addition to the two 10 mana minions. So we have ~ 32 mana worth of stuff on the board at turn 4. All this without schooling being played. He should have have played around it suppose....
i see ur points as well as i agree with you all i already poured my salt above, just wanted to give options and thoughts
Ive been playing standard for years, through the release of DH, the Galakrond Shaman fiasco, that one Topsy Turvy Priest deck during Boomsday, and when Switcheroo used to swap minions’ attack as well as health, among many others. But i still don’t think i have ever seen something as ridiculous as a turn 2 11/11 with taunt. They essentially turned standard into wild.
Rumour has it Team 5 is a bunch of actors who learn their scripts when it comes to make announcements. The real think tank, the one behind lock and key, is actually a bunch of contraband chimpanzees chained to their typewriters. Whoever can type a coherent sentence first gets a banana. This explains the sometimes questionnable decisions such as Denathtrius, buffing Implock and evolve shaman.
Just a bunch of primates doing their best.
@lvbunch of numbers: Honestly, why do you even play that broken trash anyway? I swear, the userbase is as much a problem as Team 5 relentless incompetence.
i have been playing since the beta of this game, believe me close to every expansion use to have this where 1 deck is really strong and overtook the meta. back then you saw jades every single game and there wasnt a really clear counter to them, druid just ramped up. armored threw it and if you werent playing any sort of face hunter deck you just lost
What frustrates me the most is that these things are often easily predictable in advance of the cards being released. People theorycraft broken stuff literally minutes after the cards are released, and yet Blizz seam unable or cynically unwilling (more sales) to forecast these problems.
When demon hunter was released everyone could see that the cards were completely broken. And lo and behold - DH was broken. The same is true for shaman. As soon as Thaddius, Monstrosity and Blazing Transmutation were revealed people were saying it would be broken, and as sure as shit, it's broken.
I'm prepared to give Blizz the benefit of the doubt when an unexpected overpowered deck emerges using old un-played cards. But when a tier 1 deck gets a new card which is obviously overpowered and a new mana cheating minion is released benefiting the same deck, you have to assume it's incompetance.
Personally I think the cleanest way to resolve this is to fix mana costs (and spell costs) to the value that they cost when played. i.e a gnoll played for 4 mana becomes a 5 mana minion when evolved (or it's cost on board remains "live" based on hand size). A mage spell discounted below 5 mana wont get replayed with Grey Sage Parrot.) I actually think there's potential for a whole new genre of spells that effect minions based on mana cost that could be exploited with "live" mana costs, but that's an aside...