Hearthpwn

Quote from Andrei2007 >>

Quote from SirJohn13 >>

Apart from the fact that various decks have an answer to this, the offender here is 100% Switcheroo and definitely not Twin-Fin

 if we talk natural counters, a.k.a. cards being played naturally in the deck without the purpose of hard countering twin fin, priest decks have silence and druids run one copy of the silence minion. And control paladins, which are rare, run equality. Nothing else can reliably stop them, maybe shaman if they manage to chain enough freezes. If every other deck starts including mass silence just for this marginal bad, 48% winrate deck, they make all their matchups worse. 

 Hunter plays freezing trap, all warrior decks should include execute, shaman has freezes and hex, priest it’s not a problem for, mage has a ton of freeze and shatter… the list goes on. The issue is that the meta right now is drastically invested in board position, to the point where mech mage and pirate warrior are top decks running no more than 2 spells. So we get the opposite of the inch-deep mile-wide strategy, a deck that runs 2 minions and all spells.

I think that both strategies are bad and the real culprit is there is a lack of mass board removal that allows the flood decks to prosper right now. Without the fear of over-investing into a wide board, we get little to no interaction minion decks. That reduces the need for single target removal, because there is no reason to pick off 1 of 7 targets, you’ll lose just the same. If the next mini set or expansion includes 4 or 5 cost board wipes for priest, warrior, shaman, mage, warlock and maybe even Paladin at this point, we will see the scales tip back to investing in a few targets that are more value based instead of efficient and thus single target removal will make more sense.

tldr: Switcheroo is the same problem as mech mage, it’s a 4-set problem.

I assume you're a priest main, asking for lots of cheap board clears in the meta. Expecting all decks to run specific removal and tech, no matter what their game plan is, sounds like a healthy thing. Remember evolve shaman-stickyfingers meta? That's pretty warped. 

Arguing that deck is bad or priest is underperforming doesn't even matter in this debate. The sole question is, should 2 12-12s with rush be a thing in standard that early and the answer is quite obvious. Only thing that matters is how they get around to fixing things.

just always mulligan or draw the silence minion on turn 3 noobs 

froge is me

Quote from JJSawry >>

I assume you're a priest main, asking for lots of cheap board clears in the meta. Expecting all decks to run specific removal and tech, no matter what their game plan is, sounds like a healthy thing. Remember evolve shaman-stickyfingers meta? That's pretty warped. 

Arguing that deck is bad or priest is underperforming doesn't even matter in this debate. The sole question is, should 2 12-12s with rush be a thing in standard that early and the answer is quite obvious. Only thing that matters is how they get around to fixing things.

 Sticky fingers shaman wasn’t about removal. If you are having fun playing mech mage and pirate warrior, more power to you, but after rotation a lot of removal tools were lost for every class and few were printed. With core rotation and set rotation, there is a small amount of cards in the standard pool and the result is a very simple meta where bad decks win games. It has nothing to do with which class I like most, even if it is the one everyone is crying about and has a horrible win rate, and more to do with a balanced set of cards to make decks with. You can make 4 of the top decks right now with the search function and nothing else, don’t even need to read the cards.

Also, I think a pair of 12/12 rush turn 4 is fine. There are plenty of decks that can do 24 damage by turn 5, you just need a way to answer the 12/12, and there are plenty that nobody uses.

Kelthas druid need ban...switcheroopriest is easy. Druid is busted cu*t.

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Quote from JJSawry >>

I assume you're a priest main, asking for lots of cheap board clears in the meta. Expecting all decks to run specific removal and tech, no matter what their game plan is, sounds like a healthy thing. Remember evolve shaman-stickyfingers meta? That's pretty warped. 

Arguing that deck is bad or priest is underperforming doesn't even matter in this debate. The sole question is, should 2 12-12s with rush be a thing in standard that early and the answer is quite obvious. Only thing that matters is how they get around to fixing things.

 Sticky fingers shaman wasn’t about removal. If you are having fun playing mech mage and pirate warrior, more power to you, but after rotation a lot of removal tools were lost for every class and few were printed. With core rotation and set rotation, there is a small amount of cards in the standard pool and the result is a very simple meta where bad decks win games. It has nothing to do with which class I like most, even if it is the one everyone is crying about and has a horrible win rate, and more to do with a balanced set of cards to make decks with. You can make 4 of the top decks right now with the search function and nothing else, don’t even need to read the cards.

Also, I think a pair of 12/12 rush turn 4 is fine. There are plenty of decks that can do 24 damage by turn 5, you just need a way to answer the 12/12, and there are plenty that nobody uses.

 I'm talking about the prenerf bogspine meta where people were teching sticking fingers against it, it's just a good example of how pushing a meta too deep in tech makes it warped.

And if you think two 12-12 with rush on turn 4 in standard is ok you should move to wild. And probably spam switcheroo priest or kael druid there. Blaming it on 4set meta is just denying defining traits of the game mode.

Quote from JJSawry >>

Quote from RendInFriend >>

Quote from JJSawry >>

I assume you're a priest main, asking for lots of cheap board clears in the meta. Expecting all decks to run specific removal and tech, no matter what their game plan is, sounds like a healthy thing. Remember evolve shaman-stickyfingers meta? That's pretty warped. 

Arguing that deck is bad or priest is underperforming doesn't even matter in this debate. The sole question is, should 2 12-12s with rush be a thing in standard that early and the answer is quite obvious. Only thing that matters is how they get around to fixing things.

 Sticky fingers shaman wasn’t about removal. If you are having fun playing mech mage and pirate warrior, more power to you, but after rotation a lot of removal tools were lost for every class and few were printed. With core rotation and set rotation, there is a small amount of cards in the standard pool and the result is a very simple meta where bad decks win games. It has nothing to do with which class I like most, even if it is the one everyone is crying about and has a horrible win rate, and more to do with a balanced set of cards to make decks with. You can make 4 of the top decks right now with the search function and nothing else, don’t even need to read the cards.

Also, I think a pair of 12/12 rush turn 4 is fine. There are plenty of decks that can do 24 damage by turn 5, you just need a way to answer the 12/12, and there are plenty that nobody uses.

 I'm talking about the prenerf bogspine meta where people were teching sticking fingers against it, it's just a good example of how pushing a meta too deep in tech makes it warped.

And if you think two 12-12 with rush on turn 4 in standard is ok you should move to wild. And probably spam switcheroo priest or kael druid there. Blaming it on 4set meta is just denying defining traits of the game mode.

 This isn’t tech though. Sticky fingers was used just for boggspine. Running execute in pirate warrior isn’t just for surfers. Packing a freezing trap in hunter is probably not a bad idea. I can’t help you if you can’t see the difference and think that switcheroo priest is a problem. It’s a meme deck that beats bad decks. If a deck is going to make you this salty, at least make it a deck that wins. Imagine being this tilted over an F-tier meme, the literal worst deck in standard.

Big difference though: Evolve Shaman had up to 60% WR and 20%+ playrate. Switcheroo Priest in standard is a 45% WR deck that is barely even played anymore. So even though the deck might be stupid and unhealthy for the game, if it's not a power or a popularity outlier, there is no need for an adjustment (at least from standard's point of view). If there are 10 people out there who want to donate wins to ladder by playing this deck, so be it...

Quote from kwikill >>

Quote from CodyCandy >>

I really don’t think that’s necessary….if you’re mainly upset about the boar priest deck then it’s win rate is painfully low so I’ll take the free win 4 out of 5 games I face them. 

Otherwise I don’t understand why people are so irritated with it…

 You don't understand why people have a problem with a deck that either concedes on draw or deals 40 damage from hand on turn 4?

Not everyone cares about "free wins".. some people want to, yanno, actually play the game.

 Ok let’s “play the game”. This deck is hardly played. Let’s say you come against it 1/15 games. It’s either a free win or it’s over in 2 minutes because they win t4. I don’t see the problem hahaha. I’ll take this any time over a 20min control priest game you win anyways

I think that people are too hooked on the “it’s only a 47% win rate and 5% play rate.” At the end of the day this type of deck is flat out not fun, interactive, or really fair. The average person who plays a couple games a day that doesn’t look up statistics on play rate and other such things, is gonna be really turned off when they run into decks like this. Maybe even enough so to just stop playing the game.

Less players is not good for the game, and this deck will probably cause less players to play the game even if not a ton.

The power level and win rate of the deck isn't the problem, it is the coin flip nature that prevents both players from enjoying a game that should be calculated and thought out. 

I'm posting this with the hindsight that it has already been banned, but I've said it in a similar post before and it fits the switcheroo scenario quite well.

If blizzard made a card which said " Destroy one hero at random" it would be perfectly balanced in the outcome.  The winrate of the deck playing it would probably go up by a little bit (as the owern of the card chooses when to play it), but the card itself would have no more than a 50% chance to win. 

It would be bullshit thought and people would rightly be angry such a card was printed.  Switcheroo in practice is exactly this (with some extra steps).  Either you draw switcheroo and no minions (and you almost certainly win) or you don't (and you definitely lose).  That makes for a very engaging game!