This is not ment to be a rant, but I want to share my thoughts on the current meta and rotation.
Every year when the first expansion comes around and three old expansions rotate to wild the total amount of playable cards is reduced substantially, and even though it is necessary to keep standard fresh I often feel like the new meta settles too quickly and there's just not enough cards/archetypes to try out. This time with the core set introduction the problem seems to be more apparent than in previous years.
It feels like some classes were chosen to be strong whereas others were deliberately left behind, and the strong classes usually only have one viable archetype because its available cards are simply stronger than the available cards of other archetypes for that class. Warlock for example can only be played as control because of the huge amount of removal, healing, disruption and the infinite value of Jarraxus they have. This in turn makes every other control deck unviable because no other class can compare to the tools that Warlock has (especially the corrupt and soul fragment packages). On the flip side Warlock really only has the right tools for a control deck. Zoolock and the new deck burn Warlock simply don't have enough support to build a full deck around. The same can be said for Paladin and Hunter. Paladin seems to only work with the secret and libarm packages and Hunter is only strong as an aggro deck that curves into Warsong Wrangler -> Trampling Kodo.
In my opinion, the main difference is that these classes have functional synergies and win conditions to work with. Classes like Shaman and Priest on the other hand may have some strong cards but no real synergy to build a deck around.
Another problem for me is the fact that we only have 4 expansions and the core set to work with. This makes it so that every class has a lot of cards to automatically include because the card pool is so small, meaning there is a noticeable lack of options. This way different decks for any class mostly feel like a worse version of the existing strongest deck for that specific class.
Don't get me wrong. I think the current meta is fairly diverse and fun to play, but the size of the card pool feels very restrictive when looking for new combinations and archetypes. Perhaps it would be better if Blizzard rotated one expansion at a time whenever a new expansion is released, though it wouldn't fit into their Year of the Gryphon/Mammoth/Phoenix/etc structure.
With more options before this expansion I agree that it felt better to play. You just have to soldier on for now and you can always take a 'if you can't beat them, join them' approach. If winning is important to you, you have very good Paladin and Hunter decks to play right now. Once at Diamond 5/Legend (or any other point earlier), you can experiment. That is what I do. I still like my rewards and additional stars so try to get to Diamond 5 asap, using a HSreplay deck of the month, unashamedly (even though, I dislike playing them). Then I spend the rest of the month experimenting with my homebrews not caring about results and having a blast. And if I climb the ladder with it, even better. That is how the game is structured; the fact that you can't drop ranks at the thresholds is a godsend.
There aren't many tools right now but there are still a lot of cards to play, get creative with what you've got and don't be afraid to let go of archetypes/specific cards. Nothing is auto-include. I like to work off win conditions and then building my deck around them and including some tech cards to counter the current meta. Tweak and adjust as it changes. Sometimes no matter what you do there is no answer, I feel this way with Hunter right now and sometimes Paladin - they are too fast with loads of card draw. When I play as those classes, I feel sorry for my opponents as I know that they will probably not be able to answer the onslaught. This is a problem but thanks to these decks I can climb the ladder easily to my designated point so...
And 1 thing that makes standard / HS in general a really bad are those forced synergies that force certain archtypes and makes only a couple decks viable. I think the game would be much better if people would come up with cool ideas instead of Blizz forcing players to play 1 of 6 possible decks they had in mind.Ofc other meta decks arise but i think the discrepancy of power level wouldnt be that insanely high between tier 1 2 3 decks, allowing experienced players to win with worse decks. And that is like a nogo for years now- only the powerlevel of a deck counts and the level of knowledge of the game doesnt transfere to winrates.
Standard is just really fucked. Its very boring meta. Its like people play some super op cards in the first 7 turns and the game ends with no answer possible. And that is most of the games. Its really awful and almost no strategy at all. If the game happens to be longer the rock scissor paper system makes most of the matches not better.
I rarely have the feeling or the idea that i make mistakes in standard. Its just stupid things happen and you watch a movie. I wud love to get better- but there is rarely any room to improve on cuz the RNG is basically 90% of standards playout.
I started playing Wild and i have to say i have way more fun because right now the power level seems more balanced in wild than in standard- which is crazy. I only made it to gold so far so it could also be the case that most people until now didnt really care about meta it seems.
Anyway it is just way more fun for me than standard.
And 1 thing that makes standard / HS in general a really bad are those forced synergies that force certain archtypes and makes only a couple decks viable. I think the game would be much better if people would come up with cool ideas instead of Blizz forcing players to play 1 of 6 possible decks they had in mind.
The problem with HS in general compared to some of the other card games is exactly that. There is too little synergy between different "packages", so they simply add 2-3 (more or less functional) packages per set that don't work together. Rank spells and caravans aren't really archetypes, so what has barrens really introduced in that regard? Frenzy? Lol.
There are basically 3-4 decks tops that actually win. Nothing else. This game didnt used to be like this but it sure is now. The busted stuff is so relentless and impossible to screw up too. There are NO mislplays with Paladin, Hunterd, etc. There cant be. The game is in a perfect state to play whilst taking a dump or while in a zoom meeting at work. Thats probably by design.
Best of luck trying something off meta. I have. Its a joke. You'll get run out of town faster than you can blink an eye.
There are basically 3-4 decks tops that actually win. Nothing else. This game didnt used to be like this but it sure is now. The busted stuff is so relentless and impossible to screw up too. There are NO mislplays with Paladin, Hunterd, etc. There cant be. The game is in a perfect state to play whilst taking a dump or while in a zoom meeting at work. Thats probably by design.
Best of luck trying something off meta. I have. Its a joke. You'll get run out of town faster than you can blink an eye.
On an individual player level (the only level that matters with regards to player experience), the claim that there are only 3-4 decks that can win is just objectively false. There have been . . . 3 months since legend existed that I haven't made legend and I nearly always end somewhere in the top #200 legend. In the entirety of the game, there have only been two moments when the meta has truly been restricted that badly: pre-nerf Undertaker Hunter and the Midrange Shaman deck that had a favorable matchup against the entire rest of the field.
In every other meta, there have been 6 classes at a minimum that could compete at high legend. I know because I did it.
You want something different? Play Silas Warrior. I'm collecting stats until I get 200 Tickatus matchups, and its a favorable matchup, so don't despair.
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Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
My issue? They played it way too safe with the core set. I know they wanted to keep the power lvl down but I feel like they could have gone way more wacky and experimental witg the set they gave us
I think you're wrong about there only being a few decks that work. I just took a homebrew hunter deck to legend. It uses 6 cards that agro hunter might use out of 30. Someone posted their homebrew Priest deck that got to legend and it's currently on the front page.
People exchanging few cards from already existing decks and pretending its a total new deck. This meme is going on for years now.
" Oh i made this total incredible revolutionary new face hunter deck, nothing like this ever existed. This is the proof guys, you can play everything only your imagination is your limitation."
If I'm not mistaken (and i am frequently mistaken) the Core Set has fewer cards than the original Basic/Classic combo, at least for Classes. Also, most of those cards seem/feel lower in power level than their predecessors, which doesn't really bother me because that liberates design space in future expansions to be more fun and powerful. Hunter's most powerful cards were removed, for example - while that brought me complete and utter despair originally I've begun to cling to the idea that this means they'll be given more interesting designs than they've been getting since... well... 2015.
So yeah, the Core Set being what it is - in my opinion - is a good thing, though it does carry downsides. Until we get more content (give it another month and we'll get another mini-set shadowdropped on us) all of the classes have much less wiggle room for deckbuilding. Hunter is still pretty much designed for aggression and some beast synergies, though Primordial Protector and Jewel of N'Zoth have made for an interesting Deathrattle control kind of deck in standard recently.
So in a sense, OP is right that options are more limited, however this isn't all downside. "Restrictions breed creativity" as they say, and plenty of unique decks have cropped up, you just have to go looking for them. If somebody is having a harder time coming up with innovative new deck ideas, they could always borrow inspiration from somebody else to get started. Would the Write Brothers have bothered coming up with airplanes if there were no flying animals? I dunno. Probably not. Though given enough time somebody may have said "let's try swimming but in the sky" or something. I've gotten off track.
If I'm not mistaken (and i am frequently mistaken) the Core Set has fewer cards than the original Basic/Classic combo, at least for Classes. Also, most of those cards seem/feel lower in power level than their predecessors, which doesn't really bother me because that liberates design space in future expansions to be more fun and powerful. Hunter's most powerful cards were removed, for example - while that brought me complete and utter despair originally I've begun to cling to the idea that this means they'll be given more interesting designs than they've been getting since... well... 2015.
So yeah, the Core Set being what it is - in my opinion - is a good thing, though it does carry downsides. Until we get more content (give it another month and we'll get another mini-set shadowdropped on us) all of the classes have much less wiggle room for deckbuilding. Hunter is still pretty much designed for aggression and some beast synergies, though Primordial Protector and Jewel of N'Zoth have made for an interesting Deathrattle control kind of deck in standard recently.
So in a sense, OP is right that options are more limited, however this isn't all downside. "Restrictions breed creativity" as they say, and plenty of unique decks have cropped up, you just have to go looking for them. If somebody is having a harder time coming up with innovative new deck ideas, they could always borrow inspiration from somebody else to get started. Would the Write Brothers have bothered coming up with airplanes if there were no flying animals? I dunno. Probably not. Though given enough time somebody may have said "let's try swimming but in the sky" or something. I've gotten off track.
I just took a hunter deck with Primordial Protector and Jewel of N'Zoth to legend. Hunter doesn't need to be agro right now. I honestly think the meta straight up hasn't been solved. There are a lot of decks that could be good but nobody is playing them.
Paladin is an absolute joke right now. They have the most abusive deck on the ladder. In an expansion where a lot of removal and cycle mechanics were taken out of rotation paladin has retained its massive board developing tools. Divine shields, big 6/6-8/8 minions which also come with either a heal or a 3/3 weapon, secrets that are drawn into play develop board and counterspells. Blessing of might , blessing of kings, bless my ass with 24 stats. It’s just ridiculous and it’s all anyone is playing at legend because frankly they want to win. Shit is stale and I am having way less fun than I did at the Faire.
Someone needs to bust the myth that Control warlock is the cause of control decks struggling in this meta. Take control shamen for example: yes, it has an abismal matchup vs control warlock, but it also loses to pretty much every other meta deck, and that's why it's not viable. Same with control warrior. Control Warlock just isn't dominant enough to surpress decks that way. Stop whining.
This is the flawed logic people really need to stop using. It has nothing to do with representation in the meta and all your percentages, but the fact that with Control Warrior, Shaman, Paladin and Priest you just have such a small chance to win the game against Warlocks. And it's just such a bad feeling when Tickatus comes down and there is basically nothing you can do about it.
Why do everyone think you have to have a good matchup against every deck? There aren't nearly enough control Warlocks for it to kill you playing a control deck. The fact is there are multiple decks which beat the crap out of most control decks, and that is why.
But if you can make a deck with good matchups against secret paladin, rush warrior and face hunter, you can get to legend in the current meta. The control package is just not strong enough in standard at this moment. You will have the option to play wild og classic instead
Ticatus is sucking the life out of the game for me. Just finished a game whereby turn 5/6 i had had 15 cards burnt by 3xTicatus and facing a 3x 8/8 board. Yes, he drew well, but I had a slow deck. I could just about deal with the board but I had 3 cards left. I just turned the game off. I don't net deck and always try to make some daft combo or control style deck. I appreciate I will lose and don't mind losing, but that 1 card just spoils the game for me, its not down to my bad play or the opponent's good play, they just burn half my deck and I've lost.
And 1 thing that makes standard / HS in general a really bad are those forced synergies that force certain archtypes and makes only a couple decks viable. I think the game would be much better if people would come up with cool ideas instead of Blizz forcing players to play 1 of 6 possible decks they had in mind.Ofc other meta decks arise but i think the discrepancy of power level wouldnt be that insanely high between tier 1 2 3 decks, allowing experienced players to win with worse decks. And that is like a nogo for years now- only the powerlevel of a deck counts and the level of knowledge of the game doesnt transfere to winrates.
Standard is just really fucked. Its very boring meta. Its like people play some super op cards in the first 7 turns and the game ends with no answer possible. And that is most of the games. Its really awful and almost no strategy at all. If the game happens to be longer the rock scissor paper system makes most of the matches not better.
I rarely have the feeling or the idea that i make mistakes in standard. Its just stupid things happen and you watch a movie. I wud love to get better- but there is rarely any room to improve on cuz the RNG is basically 90% of standards playout.
I started playing Wild and i have to say i have way more fun because right now the power level seems more balanced in wild than in standard- which is crazy. I only made it to gold so far so it could also be the case that most people until now didnt really care about meta it seems.
Anyway it is just way more fun for me than standard.
My thoughts exactly. It seems to me they always print cards for one specific archetype and the rest is just a bunch of random cards or support for previous, already established decks. More random options would be fun
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This is not ment to be a rant, but I want to share my thoughts on the current meta and rotation.
Every year when the first expansion comes around and three old expansions rotate to wild the total amount of playable cards is reduced substantially, and even though it is necessary to keep standard fresh I often feel like the new meta settles too quickly and there's just not enough cards/archetypes to try out. This time with the core set introduction the problem seems to be more apparent than in previous years.
It feels like some classes were chosen to be strong whereas others were deliberately left behind, and the strong classes usually only have one viable archetype because its available cards are simply stronger than the available cards of other archetypes for that class. Warlock for example can only be played as control because of the huge amount of removal, healing, disruption and the infinite value of Jarraxus they have. This in turn makes every other control deck unviable because no other class can compare to the tools that Warlock has (especially the corrupt and soul fragment packages). On the flip side Warlock really only has the right tools for a control deck. Zoolock and the new deck burn Warlock simply don't have enough support to build a full deck around. The same can be said for Paladin and Hunter. Paladin seems to only work with the secret and libarm packages and Hunter is only strong as an aggro deck that curves into Warsong Wrangler -> Trampling Kodo.
In my opinion, the main difference is that these classes have functional synergies and win conditions to work with. Classes like Shaman and Priest on the other hand may have some strong cards but no real synergy to build a deck around.
Another problem for me is the fact that we only have 4 expansions and the core set to work with. This makes it so that every class has a lot of cards to automatically include because the card pool is so small, meaning there is a noticeable lack of options. This way different decks for any class mostly feel like a worse version of the existing strongest deck for that specific class.
Don't get me wrong. I think the current meta is fairly diverse and fun to play, but the size of the card pool feels very restrictive when looking for new combinations and archetypes. Perhaps it would be better if Blizzard rotated one expansion at a time whenever a new expansion is released, though it wouldn't fit into their Year of the Gryphon/Mammoth/Phoenix/etc structure.
What do you guys think about this?
With more options before this expansion I agree that it felt better to play. You just have to soldier on for now and you can always take a 'if you can't beat them, join them' approach. If winning is important to you, you have very good Paladin and Hunter decks to play right now. Once at Diamond 5/Legend (or any other point earlier), you can experiment. That is what I do. I still like my rewards and additional stars so try to get to Diamond 5 asap, using a HSreplay deck of the month, unashamedly (even though, I dislike playing them). Then I spend the rest of the month experimenting with my homebrews not caring about results and having a blast. And if I climb the ladder with it, even better. That is how the game is structured; the fact that you can't drop ranks at the thresholds is a godsend.
There aren't many tools right now but there are still a lot of cards to play, get creative with what you've got and don't be afraid to let go of archetypes/specific cards. Nothing is auto-include. I like to work off win conditions and then building my deck around them and including some tech cards to counter the current meta. Tweak and adjust as it changes. Sometimes no matter what you do there is no answer, I feel this way with Hunter right now and sometimes Paladin - they are too fast with loads of card draw. When I play as those classes, I feel sorry for my opponents as I know that they will probably not be able to answer the onslaught. This is a problem but thanks to these decks I can climb the ladder easily to my designated point so...
And 1 thing that makes standard / HS in general a really bad are those forced synergies that force certain archtypes and makes only a couple decks viable. I think the game would be much better if people would come up with cool ideas instead of Blizz forcing players to play 1 of 6 possible decks they had in mind.Ofc other meta decks arise but i think the discrepancy of power level wouldnt be that insanely high between tier 1 2 3 decks, allowing experienced players to win with worse decks. And that is like a nogo for years now- only the powerlevel of a deck counts and the level of knowledge of the game doesnt transfere to winrates.
Standard is just really fucked. Its very boring meta. Its like people play some super op cards in the first 7 turns and the game ends with no answer possible. And that is most of the games. Its really awful and almost no strategy at all. If the game happens to be longer the rock scissor paper system makes most of the matches not better.
I rarely have the feeling or the idea that i make mistakes in standard. Its just stupid things happen and you watch a movie. I wud love to get better- but there is rarely any room to improve on cuz the RNG is basically 90% of standards playout.
I started playing Wild and i have to say i have way more fun because right now the power level seems more balanced in wild than in standard- which is crazy. I only made it to gold so far so it could also be the case that most people until now didnt really care about meta it seems.
Anyway it is just way more fun for me than standard.
The problem with HS in general compared to some of the other card games is exactly that. There is too little synergy between different "packages", so they simply add 2-3 (more or less functional) packages per set that don't work together. Rank spells and caravans aren't really archetypes, so what has barrens really introduced in that regard? Frenzy? Lol.
There are basically 3-4 decks tops that actually win. Nothing else. This game didnt used to be like this but it sure is now. The busted stuff is so relentless and impossible to screw up too. There are NO mislplays with Paladin, Hunterd, etc. There cant be. The game is in a perfect state to play whilst taking a dump or while in a zoom meeting at work. Thats probably by design.
Best of luck trying something off meta. I have. Its a joke. You'll get run out of town faster than you can blink an eye.
On an individual player level (the only level that matters with regards to player experience), the claim that there are only 3-4 decks that can win is just objectively false. There have been . . . 3 months since legend existed that I haven't made legend and I nearly always end somewhere in the top #200 legend. In the entirety of the game, there have only been two moments when the meta has truly been restricted that badly: pre-nerf Undertaker Hunter and the Midrange Shaman deck that had a favorable matchup against the entire rest of the field.
In every other meta, there have been 6 classes at a minimum that could compete at high legend. I know because I did it.
You want something different? Play Silas Warrior. I'm collecting stats until I get 200 Tickatus matchups, and its a favorable matchup, so don't despair.
Helpful Clarification on Forbidden Topics for Hearthstone Forums:
Enjoying Americans winning in the Olympics is forbidden because it is political. A 14 plus page discussion of state-sponsored lawsuits against a multi-national corporation based on harassment, discrimination, and wrongful death allegations is apparently not political enough to raise an issue.
My issue? They played it way too safe with the core set. I know they wanted to keep the power lvl down but I feel like they could have gone way more wacky and experimental witg the set they gave us
I think you're wrong about there only being a few decks that work. I just took a homebrew hunter deck to legend. It uses 6 cards that agro hunter might use out of 30. Someone posted their homebrew Priest deck that got to legend and it's currently on the front page.
I thought it was really sad when they nerfed the posts. It took one more avenue for deck building off the table.
But, there is still space to explore. How about making a warrior rush deck with N'zoth?
I don't know if it will be terrible or not, but I tried just now.
[deck]### N'Zoth Warrior
# Class: Warrior
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Gryphon
#
# 2x (1) Athletic Studies
# 2x (1) Stage Dive
# 2x (2) Bumper Car
# 2x (2) Conditioning (Rank 1)
# 1x (2) E.T.C., God of Metal
# 2x (2) Execute
# 2x (2) Imprisoned Vilefiend
# 1x (3) Playmaker
# 2x (4) Fishy Flyer
# 2x (5) Derailed Coaster
# 2x (5) Fleethoof Pearltusk
# 1x (5) Overlord Runthak
# 1x (5) Ringmaster Whatley
# 2x (5) Steward of Scrolls
# 2x (5) Stonemaul Anchorman
# 2x (6) Onyx Magescribe
# 1x (10) C'Thun, the Shattered
# 1x (10) N'Zoth, God of the Deep
#
AAECAQcG3c0Dm9gDwN4Dzt4Dv+ADqooEDPS7A9vMA+LMA5PNA4fUA9zbA7reA8HeA+rhA5jtA9XxA5+fBAA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone[/deck]
But, my point is, there are still cards like N'Zoth that are just waiting for someone to find a use for.
Galavant Animation
People exchanging few cards from already existing decks and pretending its a total new deck. This meme is going on for years now.
" Oh i made this total incredible revolutionary new face hunter deck, nothing like this ever existed. This is the proof guys, you can play everything only your imagination is your limitation."
I’m playing dekkster’s freeze mage and absolutely loving it. It feels like what mage was supposed to be instead of dumb lunacy mage.
If I'm not mistaken (and i am frequently mistaken) the Core Set has fewer cards than the original Basic/Classic combo, at least for Classes. Also, most of those cards seem/feel lower in power level than their predecessors, which doesn't really bother me because that liberates design space in future expansions to be more fun and powerful. Hunter's most powerful cards were removed, for example - while that brought me complete and utter despair originally I've begun to cling to the idea that this means they'll be given more interesting designs than they've been getting since... well... 2015.
So yeah, the Core Set being what it is - in my opinion - is a good thing, though it does carry downsides. Until we get more content (give it another month and we'll get another mini-set shadowdropped on us) all of the classes have much less wiggle room for deckbuilding. Hunter is still pretty much designed for aggression and some beast synergies, though Primordial Protector and Jewel of N'Zoth have made for an interesting Deathrattle control kind of deck in standard recently.
So in a sense, OP is right that options are more limited, however this isn't all downside. "Restrictions breed creativity" as they say, and plenty of unique decks have cropped up, you just have to go looking for them. If somebody is having a harder time coming up with innovative new deck ideas, they could always borrow inspiration from somebody else to get started. Would the Write Brothers have bothered coming up with airplanes if there were no flying animals? I dunno. Probably not. Though given enough time somebody may have said "let's try swimming but in the sky" or something. I've gotten off track.
please don't bully my son
I just took a hunter deck with Primordial Protector and Jewel of N'Zoth to legend. Hunter doesn't need to be agro right now. I honestly think the meta straight up hasn't been solved. There are a lot of decks that could be good but nobody is playing them.
Paladin is an absolute joke right now. They have the most abusive deck on the ladder. In an expansion where a lot of removal and cycle mechanics were taken out of rotation paladin has retained its massive board developing tools. Divine shields, big 6/6-8/8 minions which also come with either a heal or a 3/3 weapon, secrets that are drawn into play develop board and counterspells. Blessing of might , blessing of kings, bless my ass with 24 stats. It’s just ridiculous and it’s all anyone is playing at legend because frankly they want to win. Shit is stale and I am having way less fun than I did at the Faire.
Someone needs to bust the myth that Control warlock is the cause of control decks struggling in this meta. Take control shamen for example: yes, it has an abismal matchup vs control warlock, but it also loses to pretty much every other meta deck, and that's why it's not viable. Same with control warrior. Control Warlock just isn't dominant enough to surpress decks that way. Stop whining.
Hard to experiment with control decks when Warlock is cheating and nothing is done about it.
This is the flawed logic people really need to stop using. It has nothing to do with representation in the meta and all your percentages, but the fact that with Control Warrior, Shaman, Paladin and Priest you just have such a small chance to win the game against Warlocks. And it's just such a bad feeling when Tickatus comes down and there is basically nothing you can do about it.
Why do everyone think you have to have a good matchup against every deck? There aren't nearly enough control Warlocks for it to kill you playing a control deck. The fact is there are multiple decks which beat the crap out of most control decks, and that is why.
But if you can make a deck with good matchups against secret paladin, rush warrior and face hunter, you can get to legend in the current meta. The control package is just not strong enough in standard at this moment. You will have the option to play wild og classic instead
Silver Hand Recruit
Ticatus is sucking the life out of the game for me. Just finished a game whereby turn 5/6 i had had 15 cards burnt by 3xTicatus and facing a 3x 8/8 board. Yes, he drew well, but I had a slow deck. I could just about deal with the board but I had 3 cards left. I just turned the game off. I don't net deck and always try to make some daft combo or control style deck. I appreciate I will lose and don't mind losing, but that 1 card just spoils the game for me, its not down to my bad play or the opponent's good play, they just burn half my deck and I've lost.
My thoughts exactly. It seems to me they always print cards for one specific archetype and the rest is just a bunch of random cards or support for previous, already established decks. More random options would be fun