The only 5+ mana cards that worth putting in your standard deck usually are the ones that can be cheated or is in themselves cheat mana. You get Librams that gets discounted, Skull of Gul'dan that discount a potential 9 mana and Jandice Barov that potentially cheats out two 5 mana minions as examples.
I don't understand why time and time again does this game favor aggro decks. Aggro decks are cheap to craft and they have a low mana curve so over the course of many games you rarely have a turn where you don't have anything to play on turn 1, 2 and 3. Every match I play control vs aggro I keep contemplating why aren't I playing a cheap aggro deck while I have all of my early game cards at the bottom while my health is at 10 if not 0 by turn 4.
There are more issues with high cost cards, specifically minions that cost 7+. Aside from needing 7+ mana (basically you get to play one card at a time at this point) they can be dealt with by cheap answers. Again I ask myself why would I play control, barely survive until turn 7-10 then my 7+ minion gets easily dealt by a 2 mana Sap, Freezing Trap or worse like 3 of my +7 minions get dealt by a 3 mana Blade Dance.
This brings me to my discussion point. Either aggro cards need to be seriously toned down or high cost cards (specifically minions) gets a huge buff that makes them actually worth spending all that mana on.
The more expensive a card is, the more impact it needs to have to be playable. Most big cards start to shine when there are ways to cheat them out on like turn 5. There were some big cards that saw a lot of normal play, like the original N'zoth, but it had a massive impact when it came down and could win a game by himself.
Everytime the meta is aggro-oriented we get a dozen articles like this, until a balance patch happens and you look for new things to blame for your inability to climb. Git Gud.
Everytime the meta is aggro-oriented we get a dozen articles like this, until a balance patch happens and you look for new things to blame for your inability to climb. Git Gud.
I haven't played HS for some years now because of how "balanced" it is. No salt from me, just my point of view.
Everytime the meta is aggro-oriented we get a dozen articles like this, until a balance patch happens and you look for new things to blame for your inability to climb. Git Gud.
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
I remember a period of the game during the release of I think of Knights of the frozen throne where the meta was generally pretty slow with 5 mana Spreading Plague, raza priest, Bloodreaver Gul'dan and the lich king being really popular.
during this meta people were complaining because the best decks were too expensive. The aggro decks were cheap, but they weren't really that good because they so punished by spreading plague and big priest.
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
I don't want to waste time doing research for this nonsense thread so i will just speak of my own personal experience.
This month i hit legend (after a long time) by playing Pure Paladin. My list ran four 5-drops and two 7-drops that cannot be discounted, plus another two 5-drops, two 6-drops and two 9-drops that can conditionally cost less.
To be fair, this was before Nitroboost Poison got released, but once that card gets nerfed we will be back to a healthy meta.
I have not played pure aggro deck with <4 mana curve for at least a year now. There has always been several decks with high cost cards in them with really good winrates. Ramp + Libram paladin is dominating the meta as of now. Not sure where OP's rant is coming from.
Also, back before Demon hunter came along, Highlander mage was one of the best decks and you just jammed all the high cost, greedy cards you could in there.
Yeah, there was still the mana cheating, what with dragoncaster and puzzle box being a staple in those, but the point was, you could still easily make it to the turns necessary to play them.
Currently, there is an influx of aggro thanks to some of the mini set cards but I've still found some success with slightly greedier decks. You just can't make them as heavy as before...
I'm curious when these people, who claim that the game is more aggro now, actually started playing this game?
The only expansion I remember being less aggro dominated than this is KotFT and maybe WotOG... Back in the beta days, there was like ONE good control class. Naxx was overrun by aggro hunter, GvG aggro mage, TgT face hunter, LoE face shaman, WotOG was ok mixed (as I remember), MSoG Pirate warrior... I'm getting tired now.
My point is that I really don't see what has become so aggro NOW? Sure stealth rouge is insane and zoolock really strong, but we also have some really powerful mid range AND control decks. In Gadgetzan we had two decks.... In TGT we had face hunters everywhere. In 2019 we had tons of zoolocks all year. In Boomsday we had zoolock and OTK druid killing everything else. In Witchwood... "None will survive!" 'member?
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
I don't want to waste time doing research for this nonsense thread so i will just speak of my own personal experience.
This month i hit legend (after a long time) by playing Pure Paladin. My list ran four 5-drops and two 7-drops that cannot be discounted, plus another two 5-drops, two 6-drops and two 9-drops that can conditionally cost less.
To be fair, this was before Nitroboost Poison got released, but once that card gets nerfed we will be back to a healthy meta.
Dude, if you don’t want to be in this thread then don’t come and use comments like “salt” and “Git Gud”. Just don’t comment at all. Paladins can discount their librams. I mentioned this already. I already argued that the only reason you’d make your deck mana curve higher is for the fact that you can cheat mana. If your class/deck can’t cheat mana then you can’t compete against aggro and even have to play aggro yourself.
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
I don't want to waste time doing research for this nonsense thread so i will just speak of my own personal experience.
This month i hit legend (after a long time) by playing Pure Paladin. My list ran four 5-drops and two 7-drops that cannot be discounted, plus another two 5-drops, two 6-drops and two 9-drops that can conditionally cost less.
To be fair, this was before Nitroboost Poison got released, but once that card gets nerfed we will be back to a healthy meta.
Dude, if you don’t want to be in this thread then don’t come and use comments like “salt” and “Git Gud”. Just don’t comment at all. Paladins can discount their librams. I mentioned this already. I already argued that the only reason you’d make your deck mana curve higher is for the fact that you can cheat mana. If your class/deck can’t cheat mana then you can’t compete against aggro and even have to play aggro yourself.
I think there are a bunch of warrior and warlock players who'll strongly disagree with you mate.... It's true that you usually won't need to play your expensive cards against aggro decks, but you probably don't get much benefit from playing armor vendor against warrior either...
I agree with the sentiment of the post but it's well past being fixable at this point.
What they should have done over time is reduce the power level of 1 and 2 drops, removed the ability to mana cheat almost completely and tried to recreate a hearthstone game state where powerful standalone cards of over 5 were playable, as it was in the past - Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Dr Boom, Tirion, etc.
Believe it or not 'curvestone' is actually how this game functions best, where board clears work and the game is by and large interactive between the two players.
Instead, the greed of Blizzard to hype expansions and sell packs in the short term, and crucially, peoples massive complaints anytime we get a weaker set has given us the game we have today - Cards of 1 to 4 mana exist...some 5 mana cards exist....anything over 5, well, you better be something extra spicey/swingy and game effecting immediately on play or you do not exist. Unless of course its possible to cheat them out. As if mana cheating is a solution, and not compeltely unfair, unfun and often uninteractive.
Well, we are in the meta, where aggro beats control, so Blizzard clearly screwed things up. I don't mind an increase in overal power level, but why is this increase not evenly distributed for both sides? Why aggro recently gets all the best toys, while control can't even live long enough to use a quarter of their own? If DH can smash your face for 20 dmg in single turn directly from his hand and the only thing to stop it is taunt (which he can easily ignore), there's not much hope for control.
Aggro is so strong at this point, that control need cards like 3 mana: destroy all minions, you get 5 armor for each. I'm not even kidding...
Well, we are in the meta, where aggro beats control, so Blizzard clearly screwed things up. I don't mind an increase in overal power level, but why is this increase not evenly distributed for both sides? Why aggro recently gets all the best toys, while control can't even live long enough to use a quarter of their own? If DH can smash your face for 20 dmg in single turn directly from his hand and the only thing to stop it is taunt (which he can easily ignore), there's not much hope for control.
Aggro is so strong at this point, that control need cards like 3 mana: destroy all minions, you get 5 armor for each. I'm not even kidding...
On the other hand we have midrange decks that can kill you on turn 6 will crazy swing plays. And we still have lots of control decks. I agree that rouge has been over tuned, but I still see tons of warriors, warlock and paladins. I haven't seen many face hunters lately thou. Remember when face hunter killed everything?
Its much much harder to make great high cost cards. Its way easier to make great cheap ones cuz their impact doesnt have to be game-ending for them to be playable. If I spend 7+ mana on a single card its impact needs to at least have the potential of winning me the game when played, thats VERY hard to balance. The only ways Team 5 have tried to answer this problem is by:
-Make high cost stuff less powerful but allowing you to cheat it out for less mana;
-Force you to build your deck around that card to bring out its game-ending power (making the whole deck less efficient);
-Force you to play specific cards first before you can end the game with that high cost card (making your draws less efficient);
Aggro doesnt have to care about any of that shit, its efficiency at its best, you draw it you play it, you get great benefit for its cost, its all peachy.
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The only 5+ mana cards that worth putting in your standard deck usually are the ones that can be cheated or is in themselves cheat mana. You get Librams that gets discounted, Skull of Gul'dan that discount a potential 9 mana and Jandice Barov that potentially cheats out two 5 mana minions as examples.
I don't understand why time and time again does this game favor aggro decks. Aggro decks are cheap to craft and they have a low mana curve so over the course of many games you rarely have a turn where you don't have anything to play on turn 1, 2 and 3. Every match I play control vs aggro I keep contemplating why aren't I playing a cheap aggro deck while I have all of my early game cards at the bottom while my health is at 10 if not 0 by turn 4.
There are more issues with high cost cards, specifically minions that cost 7+. Aside from needing 7+ mana (basically you get to play one card at a time at this point) they can be dealt with by cheap answers. Again I ask myself why would I play control, barely survive until turn 7-10 then my 7+ minion gets easily dealt by a 2 mana Sap, Freezing Trap or worse like 3 of my +7 minions get dealt by a 3 mana Blade Dance.
This brings me to my discussion point. Either aggro cards need to be seriously toned down or high cost cards (specifically minions) gets a huge buff that makes them actually worth spending all that mana on.
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You need to play something else. It's been like this for years. At least you started to notice this "design" choice.
The more expensive a card is, the more impact it needs to have to be playable. Most big cards start to shine when there are ways to cheat them out on like turn 5. There were some big cards that saw a lot of normal play, like the original N'zoth, but it had a massive impact when it came down and could win a game by himself.
There's already a salt thread for the two of you.
Everytime the meta is aggro-oriented we get a dozen articles like this, until a balance patch happens and you look for new things to blame for your inability to climb. Git Gud.
I haven't played HS for some years now because of how "balanced" it is. No salt from me, just my point of view.
Face is the place, my young orc friend.
There is a garbage dump also but you don’t see me telling you to live there.
Aggro balance patches rarely address the issues with high cost cards. Its either aggro or mana cheat. High cost cards with no mana cheat are basically dead cards unless the meta is slow as f***
Sign Here
I remember a period of the game during the release of I think of Knights of the frozen throne where the meta was generally pretty slow with 5 mana Spreading Plague, raza priest, Bloodreaver Gul'dan and the lich king being really popular.
during this meta people were complaining because the best decks were too expensive. The aggro decks were cheap, but they weren't really that good because they so punished by spreading plague and big priest.
Take a look at my most recent deck, Watch post, totem, menagerie shaman.
I don't want to waste time doing research for this nonsense thread so i will just speak of my own personal experience.
This month i hit legend (after a long time) by playing Pure Paladin. My list ran four 5-drops and two 7-drops that cannot be discounted, plus another two 5-drops, two 6-drops and two 9-drops that can conditionally cost less.
To be fair, this was before Nitroboost Poison got released, but once that card gets nerfed we will be back to a healthy meta.
I have not played pure aggro deck with <4 mana curve for at least a year now. There has always been several decks with high cost cards in them with really good winrates. Ramp + Libram paladin is dominating the meta as of now. Not sure where OP's rant is coming from.
For the achievements kappa!
Take a walk on the wild side...
I blame Wriggling Horror and Voracious Reader.
Also, back before Demon hunter came along, Highlander mage was one of the best decks and you just jammed all the high cost, greedy cards you could in there.
Yeah, there was still the mana cheating, what with dragoncaster and puzzle box being a staple in those, but the point was, you could still easily make it to the turns necessary to play them.
Currently, there is an influx of aggro thanks to some of the mini set cards but I've still found some success with slightly greedier decks. You just can't make them as heavy as before...
Dinotamer Brann is still pretty good.
I'm curious when these people, who claim that the game is more aggro now, actually started playing this game?
The only expansion I remember being less aggro dominated than this is KotFT and maybe WotOG... Back in the beta days, there was like ONE good control class. Naxx was overrun by aggro hunter, GvG aggro mage, TgT face hunter, LoE face shaman, WotOG was ok mixed (as I remember), MSoG Pirate warrior... I'm getting tired now.
My point is that I really don't see what has become so aggro NOW? Sure stealth rouge is insane and zoolock really strong, but we also have some really powerful mid range AND control decks. In Gadgetzan we had two decks.... In TGT we had face hunters everywhere. In 2019 we had tons of zoolocks all year. In Boomsday we had zoolock and OTK druid killing everything else. In Witchwood... "None will survive!" 'member?
Dude, if you don’t want to be in this thread then don’t come and use comments like “salt” and “Git Gud”. Just don’t comment at all.
Paladins can discount their librams. I mentioned this already. I already argued that the only reason you’d make your deck mana curve higher is for the fact that you can cheat mana. If your class/deck can’t cheat mana then you can’t compete against aggro and even have to play aggro yourself.
Sign Here
I think there are a bunch of warrior and warlock players who'll strongly disagree with you mate.... It's true that you usually won't need to play your expensive cards against aggro decks, but you probably don't get much benefit from playing armor vendor against warrior either...
I agree with the sentiment of the post but it's well past being fixable at this point.
What they should have done over time is reduce the power level of 1 and 2 drops, removed the ability to mana cheat almost completely and tried to recreate a hearthstone game state where powerful standalone cards of over 5 were playable, as it was in the past - Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Dr Boom, Tirion, etc.
Believe it or not 'curvestone' is actually how this game functions best, where board clears work and the game is by and large interactive between the two players.
Instead, the greed of Blizzard to hype expansions and sell packs in the short term, and crucially, peoples massive complaints anytime we get a weaker set has given us the game we have today - Cards of 1 to 4 mana exist...some 5 mana cards exist....anything over 5, well, you better be something extra spicey/swingy and game effecting immediately on play or you do not exist. Unless of course its possible to cheat them out. As if mana cheating is a solution, and not compeltely unfair, unfun and often uninteractive.
Well, we are in the meta, where aggro beats control, so Blizzard clearly screwed things up. I don't mind an increase in overal power level, but why is this increase not evenly distributed for both sides? Why aggro recently gets all the best toys, while control can't even live long enough to use a quarter of their own? If DH can smash your face for 20 dmg in single turn directly from his hand and the only thing to stop it is taunt (which he can easily ignore), there's not much hope for control.
Aggro is so strong at this point, that control need cards like 3 mana: destroy all minions, you get 5 armor for each. I'm not even kidding...
On the other hand we have midrange decks that can kill you on turn 6 will crazy swing plays. And we still have lots of control decks. I agree that rouge has been over tuned, but I still see tons of warriors, warlock and paladins. I haven't seen many face hunters lately thou. Remember when face hunter killed everything?
Its much much harder to make great high cost cards. Its way easier to make great cheap ones cuz their impact doesnt have to be game-ending for them to be playable. If I spend 7+ mana on a single card its impact needs to at least have the potential of winning me the game when played, thats VERY hard to balance. The only ways Team 5 have tried to answer this problem is by:
-Make high cost stuff less powerful but allowing you to cheat it out for less mana;
-Force you to build your deck around that card to bring out its game-ending power (making the whole deck less efficient);
-Force you to play specific cards first before you can end the game with that high cost card (making your draws less efficient);
Aggro doesnt have to care about any of that shit, its efficiency at its best, you draw it you play it, you get great benefit for its cost, its all peachy.