I think I rather play vs Demon Hunter when it was over powered then what Evolve Shaman brings to the game. Spamming the board with minions and then upgrading them to a board that seems impossible to consistently remove feels worse to me. This deck seems more of the created by version that people despised when Mage was strong. Except your creating minions by Knuckles.
The only good counter is Stickyfinger which is difficult to consistently have on turn 5.
I disagree. Demon hunter was way more annoying and stronger than evolve shaman. It never felt good to die from 30 hp in 2 turns while getting your board cleared and opponent building their own board. Yeah, evolve shaman is just mindless board flood into evolve (they can still get screwed by doomsayer now and then), they make you run Kobold Stickyfinger and I'm sure this thing will give them the nerf hammer. But evolve shaman will never be as cancerous as demon hunter used to be.
With Mind control tech and Vanish in the hall of fame, there aren't many cards in standard that punish the opponent for overextending. Maybe we have to be more creative with cheap ways to remove a board. I've been playing with Doomsayer a lot recently but the problem is Shaman has good removal-tools. Perhaps making a deck with high-attack taunts will make it punishing for the opponent to use weapon swings? I think rather than the complaining about the deck, we need to logically think about its weaknesses and how to exploit them.
With Mind control tech and Vanish in the hall of fame, there aren't many cards in standard that punish the opponent for overextending. Maybe we have to be more creative with cheap ways to remove a board. I've been playing with Doomsayer a lot recently but the problem is Shaman has good removal-tools. Perhaps making a deck with high-attack taunts will make it punishing for the opponent to use weapon swings? I think rather than the complaining about the deck, we need to logically think about its weaknesses and how to exploit them.
With the speed of meta evolvement at this point, there is no way around the lack of counters. You can essentially play fast aggro or certain warrior decks. It crushes everything from mage, priest and druid (source hsreplay)
With Mind control tech and Vanish in the hall of fame, there aren't many cards in standard that punish the opponent for overextending. Maybe we have to be more creative with cheap ways to remove a board. I've been playing with Doomsayer a lot recently but the problem is Shaman has good removal-tools. Perhaps making a deck with high-attack taunts will make it punishing for the opponent to use weapon swings? I think rather than the complaining about the deck, we need to logically think about its weaknesses and how to exploit them.
It comes a turn or so too early to realistically counter on a consistent basis. I've drawn really well as warrior before and been able to clear 3 boards by around turn 8 but then they slap down the minion that summons a rush for each minion in hand and mogu and I'd just run out of answers, again.
What's frustrating about evolve shaman is even if you draw e and play well it can still roll through you and its really rough to be pro active. If you manage the 3-5 cost boards there is always one with a giant and/or mogu to then come down.
It's also very difficult to predict. At least with demon hunter there's very little randomness or generation to compete with. You know what they are going to play and you can plan that match out better. Having a board evolve to include a kargath and zixor which then clears up the minimal defence you had been able to muster is sonething you can't plan for.
It's certainly one of the most unfun and unfair feeling decks I've known in hearthstone. It will definitely be nerfed and hopefully the mini expansion brings us a couple more control tools to combat what has been such an aggressive meta for so long now.
It‘s way worse than DH. It just feels like a dice roll. And one that is favoured for the shaman player. It‘s simply unfair that it can evolve in the same turn where he is playing a garbage minion that copies itself. If there will be a nerf it has to be on knuckles. This is the core problem of this deck. It should evolve a random minion. It would be ok if it would evolve into a minion which costs 2 or 3 more but the whole board is too much. That encourages players to play this 1/1 beast that copies itself (don‘t remember the name).
It's also very difficult to predict. At least with demon hunter there's very little randomness or generation to compete with. You know what they are going to play and you can plan that match out better.
It's certainly one of the most unfun and unfair feeling decks I've known in hearthstone.
It’s difficult to predict because it’s random, but that is also it’s weakness. I have low-rolled into easily cleared boards and high-rolled into sticky boards. If you let them keep many minions you are going to have a hard time.
Soul DH is way worse in my eyes. Sure, you know what’s in the deck, but you can’t really account for all of the things. 10+ life swings with Aldrachi were not uncommon and in combination with Shardshatter or Bladedance clears you were often left with next to no board and also down 10+ life. DH’s burst and swings were just wild and unlike Shaman not random.
No, Demon Hunter prenerf Aggro was pretty easy just keep filling big taunt...
While shaman has no other counter but sticky
Evolve -> where is counter ?
Shuddle - > where is counter ?
Galakron - > where is counter ? (before it nerfed)
Quest-Corrupt -> where is counter ?
so yes shaman is the main protagonist here, shaman always deserved nerf because his mechanic are broken usually cannot be counter
I added 1 single copy of Stickyfinger in my deck and its winrate vs shaman went from 40% to 56%. Against DH there was no card that could help me improve the winrate so much. And please tell me what deck should I play to fill the board with taunts every single round so DH doesn't kill me by turn 10? They can get to your face so easily with cards like blade dance, bladed lady, altruis and there is no deck that runs a bunch of taunts to stop them and at the same time do well against other meta decks. If you suggest to play a deck that's supposed to counter DH only (and doesn't even do a good job) but lose to literally everything else then I will say it again, demon hunter was a bigger problem than evolve shaman.
I think I rather play vs Demon Hunter when it was over powered then what Evolve Shaman brings to the game. Spamming the board with minions and then upgrading them to a board that seems impossible to consistently remove feels worse to me. This deck seems more of the created by version that people despised when Mage was strong. Except your creating minions by Knuckles.
The only good counter is Stickyfinger which is difficult to consistently have on turn 5.
The game is rigged dude, if u're using kobold stickfinger it will come eventually and u can have a chance to face this deck. I bet many ppl are not using it or any other weapon removal like harrison jones or ooze and are just complaining about due their lack of skills.
I think I rather play vs Demon Hunter when it was over powered then what Evolve Shaman brings to the game. Spamming the board with minions and then upgrading them to a board that seems impossible to consistently remove feels worse to me. This deck seems more of the created by version that people despised when Mage was strong. Except your creating minions by Knuckles.
The only good counter is Stickyfinger which is difficult to consistently have on turn 5.
The game is rigged dude, if u're using kobold stickfinger it will come eventually and u can have a chance to face this deck. I bet many ppl are not using it or any other weapon removal like harrison jones or ooze and are just complaining about due their lack of skills.
Or maybe they don't get to draw it before it is already too late.
I don't know if it's WORSE. The thing is, Demon Hunter had some counters. And agro DH was the most successful counter to Evolve. Nerfing agro DH, Evolve Shaman has overall pretty good matchups against every class, except maybe Warrior (which it isn't an IMPOSSIBLE match).
Yes, I know. Before anybody say it. Kobold Stickyfinger is a good counter, and indeed the only good one right now. But is it ok that a deck can only be stopped BY ONE CARD?
I indeed think it's a broken deck. It has an amazing winrate, and requires little to none skill for winning. Of course, for highend plays you need to be skillful. But overall, it doesn't punishes you for bad plays most of the times.
I'm at a 5 win streak right now. And I haven't faced any good players playing this deck right now. Most of the time they make stupid plays, and can't play around with my secrets (I'm using a modified version of this deck: 1374729-tempo-secret-renomage#c6). That means that bad players are being paired with "good" players (or better said, with players with a higher winrate). The only explanation to that is this: the deck is broken.
I think the main problem is the weapon. It excels at making damage AND also generating a board. If the opponent has no minions, it doesn't matters, it's 4 to the face EVERY TIME. Do the math: 4 damage x 2 charges x 4 copies (counting the 2 ones that gets your weapon again) = 32 DAMAGE. You're getting 32 damage to the face guaranteed AND also developing a board. Having only the weapons and no minions at all is just enough for winning. This weapon should do 2 or 3 damage AT MOST. That'd be fair.
Having to handle the board AND also the weapon, since even with an empty hand is still dangerous with such high attack is just sometimes impossible. If it did less damage, it could give you time for reaching to mass removal like Zephrys, Renos, Nethers, Galakrond, etc...
Sea Giant might be a good tech if you can use their large board against them. I also think Warlock has some good taunts Void Drinker and Ring Matron that can be punishing to weapon swing into. I'm not doing too badly with Soulshard warlock against them...although of course rng is rng and will always screw you over sometimes.
It's just a good tier 1 deck really. It doesn't break the meta in the way DH has and you don't need sticky finger to defeat it.
BUT! It IS a pretty annoying deck, with a frustrating ability to win with insane RNG, even when sticky finger and AOE is played on point.
One might hate that, decks that beat shaman, get fucked by paladin. Aggro DH and galakrond warrior are good playable examples. BUT since paladin is fading (to me at least), one can easily exploit this. I made it to legend with galakrond. I'm sure that you can find a decent deck that fits your style and do the same.
I think I rather play vs Demon Hunter when it was over powered then what Evolve Shaman brings to the game. Spamming the board with minions and then upgrading them to a board that seems impossible to consistently remove feels worse to me. This deck seems more of the created by version that people despised when Mage was strong. Except your creating minions by Knuckles.
The only good counter is Stickyfinger which is difficult to consistently have on turn 5.
if it was it would have been better than DH before the nerfs.
Its just the tier 1 deck, and there will always be a tier 1 deck.
I disagree. Demon hunter was way more annoying and stronger than evolve shaman. It never felt good to die from 30 hp in 2 turns while getting your board cleared and opponent building their own board. Yeah, evolve shaman is just mindless board flood into evolve (they can still get screwed by doomsayer now and then), they make you run Kobold Stickyfinger and I'm sure this thing will give them the nerf hammer. But evolve shaman will never be as cancerous as demon hunter used to be.
No, Demon Hunter prenerf Aggro was pretty easy just keep filling big taunt...
While shaman has no other counter but sticky
Evolve -> where is counter ?
Shuddle - > where is counter ?
Galakron - > where is counter ? (before it nerfed)
Quest-Corrupt -> where is counter ?
so yes shaman is the main protagonist here, shaman always deserved nerf because his mechanic are broken usually cannot be counter
There was never a shuddedeck even breaking 50% overall winrate, so counters were everywhere.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
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With Mind control tech and Vanish in the hall of fame, there aren't many cards in standard that punish the opponent for overextending. Maybe we have to be more creative with cheap ways to remove a board. I've been playing with Doomsayer a lot recently but the problem is Shaman has good removal-tools. Perhaps making a deck with high-attack taunts will make it punishing for the opponent to use weapon swings? I think rather than the complaining about the deck, we need to logically think about its weaknesses and how to exploit them.
With the speed of meta evolvement at this point, there is no way around the lack of counters. You can essentially play fast aggro or certain warrior decks. It crushes everything from mage, priest and druid (source hsreplay)
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
It comes a turn or so too early to realistically counter on a consistent basis. I've drawn really well as warrior before and been able to clear 3 boards by around turn 8 but then they slap down the minion that summons a rush for each minion in hand and mogu and I'd just run out of answers, again.
What's frustrating about evolve shaman is even if you draw e and play well it can still roll through you and its really rough to be pro active. If you manage the 3-5 cost boards there is always one with a giant and/or mogu to then come down.
It's also very difficult to predict. At least with demon hunter there's very little randomness or generation to compete with. You know what they are going to play and you can plan that match out better. Having a board evolve to include a kargath and zixor which then clears up the minimal defence you had been able to muster is sonething you can't plan for.
It's certainly one of the most unfun and unfair feeling decks I've known in hearthstone. It will definitely be nerfed and hopefully the mini expansion brings us a couple more control tools to combat what has been such an aggressive meta for so long now.
It‘s way worse than DH. It just feels like a dice roll. And one that is favoured for the shaman player. It‘s simply unfair that it can evolve in the same turn where he is playing a garbage minion that copies itself. If there will be a nerf it has to be on knuckles. This is the core problem of this deck. It should evolve a random minion. It would be ok if it would evolve into a minion which costs 2 or 3 more but the whole board is too much. That encourages players to play this 1/1 beast that copies itself (don‘t remember the name).
True that, but this tier one seems more anti skill and random then all the others....
Off topic..... Good luck securing top seed in NFC !!
Silas Darkmoon
It’s difficult to predict because it’s random, but that is also it’s weakness. I have low-rolled into easily cleared boards and high-rolled into sticky boards. If you let them keep many minions you are going to have a hard time.
Soul DH is way worse in my eyes. Sure, you know what’s in the deck, but you can’t really account for all of the things. 10+ life swings with Aldrachi were not uncommon and in combination with Shardshatter or Bladedance clears you were often left with next to no board and also down 10+ life. DH’s burst and swings were just wild and unlike Shaman not random.
I added 1 single copy of Stickyfinger in my deck and its winrate vs shaman went from 40% to 56%. Against DH there was no card that could help me improve the winrate so much. And please tell me what deck should I play to fill the board with taunts every single round so DH doesn't kill me by turn 10? They can get to your face so easily with cards like blade dance, bladed lady, altruis and there is no deck that runs a bunch of taunts to stop them and at the same time do well against other meta decks. If you suggest to play a deck that's supposed to counter DH only (and doesn't even do a good job) but lose to literally everything else then I will say it again, demon hunter was a bigger problem than evolve shaman.
The game is rigged dude, if u're using kobold stickfinger it will come eventually and u can have a chance to face this deck.
I bet many ppl are not using it or any other weapon removal like harrison jones or ooze and are just complaining about due their lack of skills.
Or maybe they don't get to draw it before it is already too late.
Believe me, I happen to have a whole lot of that.
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No, stop talking nonsense.
I don't know if it's WORSE. The thing is, Demon Hunter had some counters. And agro DH was the most successful counter to Evolve. Nerfing agro DH, Evolve Shaman has overall pretty good matchups against every class, except maybe Warrior (which it isn't an IMPOSSIBLE match).
Yes, I know. Before anybody say it. Kobold Stickyfinger is a good counter, and indeed the only good one right now. But is it ok that a deck can only be stopped BY ONE CARD?
I indeed think it's a broken deck. It has an amazing winrate, and requires little to none skill for winning. Of course, for highend plays you need to be skillful. But overall, it doesn't punishes you for bad plays most of the times.
I'm at a 5 win streak right now. And I haven't faced any good players playing this deck right now. Most of the time they make stupid plays, and can't play around with my secrets (I'm using a modified version of this deck: 1374729-tempo-secret-renomage#c6). That means that bad players are being paired with "good" players (or better said, with players with a higher winrate). The only explanation to that is this: the deck is broken.
I think the main problem is the weapon. It excels at making damage AND also generating a board. If the opponent has no minions, it doesn't matters, it's 4 to the face EVERY TIME. Do the math: 4 damage x 2 charges x 4 copies (counting the 2 ones that gets your weapon again) = 32 DAMAGE. You're getting 32 damage to the face guaranteed AND also developing a board. Having only the weapons and no minions at all is just enough for winning. This weapon should do 2 or 3 damage AT MOST. That'd be fair.
Having to handle the board AND also the weapon, since even with an empty hand is still dangerous with such high attack is just sometimes impossible. If it did less damage, it could give you time for reaching to mass removal like Zephrys, Renos, Nethers, Galakrond, etc...
Sea Giant might be a good tech if you can use their large board against them. I also think Warlock has some good taunts Void Drinker and Ring Matron that can be punishing to weapon swing into. I'm not doing too badly with Soulshard warlock against them...although of course rng is rng and will always screw you over sometimes.
I have a pretty good winrate with my highlander Mage without secrets. 12-2 against Shaman now. Happy to see them!
It's just a good tier 1 deck really. It doesn't break the meta in the way DH has and you don't need sticky finger to defeat it.
BUT! It IS a pretty annoying deck, with a frustrating ability to win with insane RNG, even when sticky finger and AOE is played on point.
One might hate that, decks that beat shaman, get fucked by paladin. Aggro DH and galakrond warrior are good playable examples. BUT since paladin is fading (to me at least), one can easily exploit this. I made it to legend with galakrond. I'm sure that you can find a decent deck that fits your style and do the same.
Yea i am good on ladder till this crap is gone.