because these cards were against their class identity. Warlock is supossed to have little to no burst damage while druids weaknis is to deal with big threads. Divine favor was just a very very strong card in any aggro deck like odd paladin.
Same reason they’ve nerfed equality into the oblivion. Also the reason why they removed any potential for mill decks in standard. Nobody knows, probably even they. Talking about class identity is really stupid when there are none. Class decks change from one expansion to another. One day warrior is heavy control class, next day he just kills you on turn 8.
Really OP cards that are staple in every class deck deserve being moved to HoF or a nerf on very rare occasions (nerfs killed Druid till this expansion). Others are good.
The logic behind the Hall of Shame is always a bit off.
Naturalize was for the most part a disregarded card, since giving your opponent 2 cards was usually not worth the cheap destroy effect. The talk about "class identity" was that Druid is supposed to have trouble with big minions. The argument is somewhat fair, since Lesser Jasper Spellstone rotated along with it, but it was likely done because of Mecha'thun combos. In my opinion. the downside of Naturalize (and Mulch) already indicated that Druid is supposed to have problems with killing minions.
Doomguard was rotated "to limit the amount of damage a Warlock can deal from their hand" (Patchnote). Don't ask why they kept Soulfire and Leeroy Jenkins around, and released Nether Breath in DoD.
Divine Favor was sacked, because card draw was supposed to be a weakness of Paladin, especially for aggressive decks, and they wanted to have more control over the powerlevel of the class. Again, fair statement, though Secret Paladin in Rise of Shadows showed just how terrible aggressive Paladin decks usually are without it. There's Mech Paladin now, which can go without it due to it's higher curve, but that deck won't survive the next rotation. They did not remove a strength, but a playstyle from the class.
They always find a reason to rotate something, but more often than not, you can find better reasons why they should not. And whenever they speak of design space and "we want to limit the influence of the Classic set", I just wonder why they even bother having permanent sets in Standard anyway.
Naturalize used to be considered a trash card, which made it indicative of Druids bad removal ability. However, the games power level has shot up over time. Naturalize was actually seeing standard play prior to it’s rotation, because Druid was given such ridiculously powerful draw and defensive capabilities that he could care less if you draw 2 cards. This continues to be the case in wild.
Draw is not a weakness of Paladin, they printed a 1 mana draw 2 into the class. DF was rotated simply to allow other good draw to be printed. They have been chipping away at the basic/classic sets like this for some time to create new design space when it’s convenient for them. Team 5 is too lazy to just rotate the entire classic set and actually become competent game designers.
I can understand why Ice Block Giant and Murloc was moved to HoF in 2018 (frustrated, high priest thekal and odd decks draw).
But I totally can't get why they did it to Doomguard, Divine favor and Naturalize. Any wombo-combo? So there wouldn't be any logic in 2020 HoF
Any comments?
Doomgaurd was in both Zoolock and Cubelock and was particularly oppressive in Cubelock. Divine Favor has been on the hof wish list for a long time, the card was just nuts broken (and still is in wild), you had to be crazy to think otherwise. Naturalise was moved because it is against Druid's identity of having efficient removal.
The logic behind the Hall of Shame is always a bit off.
Naturalize was for the most part a disregarded card, since giving your opponent 2 cards was usually not worth the cheap destroy effect. The talk about "class identity" was that Druid is supposed to have trouble with big minions. The argument is somewhat fair, since Lesser Jasper Spellstone rotated along with it, but it was likely done because of Mecha'thun combos. In my opinion. the downside of Naturalize (and Mulch) already indicated that Druid is supposed to have problems with killing minions.
Doomguard was rotated "to limit the amount of damage a Warlock can deal from their hand" (Patchnote). Don't ask why they kept Soulfire and Leeroy Jenkins around, and released Nether Breath in DoD.
Divine Favor was sacked, because card draw was supposed to be a weakness of Paladin, especially for aggressive decks, and they wanted to have more control over the powerlevel of the class. Again, fair statement, though Secret Paladin in Rise of Shadows showed just how terrible aggressive Paladin decks usually are without it. There's Mech Paladin now, which can go without it due to it's higher curve, but that deck won't survive the next rotation. They did not remove a strength, but a playstyle from the class.
*Whining paragraph*
Divine Favor wasn't removed to create a weakness, it was just an evergreen draw card that they wanted to cycle out. Paladin is about the only class that can run Chef Nomi, and has a deck built around Shirvallah, so dont claim card draw is a weakness
Doomguard Cubelock combos were dealing 25-30 damage per turn, and with silence being a mechanic nerfed to the ground, there wasn't that much counterplay. Leeroy may yet be phased out this next season, but that combo is still only 10 damage.
Naturalize was great removal and punished a lot of forms of counterplay, and as a tech vs control decks, the draw 2 was no longer a downside.
There was good reason to rotate these cards. And there are other classic cards that should also go. Not being able to climb using 1-2TKO combos doesnt give any merit to your whining.
Divine Favor: Holds back a lot of design space, Paladin's class identity is typically minion heavy and aggressive, this would make any cheap minions printed for paladin way too strong for Standard.
Naturalize: In early years of HS this was a completely disregarded card however when Druid got a bunch of defensive cards the downside wasn't that bad, especially against control and combo decks. Druid is supposed to have difficulty removing big minions so this one makes a lot of sense.
Doomguard: Honestly this is one of the few cards I don't think should have been HoF'd, it was really only problematic in Cubelock, a lot of the cards from that deck were just gonna rotate and since Leeroy still remains it was really redundant.
it's primarily the community that wanted these cards out. they're frustrating to play against and they did name that as their primary reason. iceblock was just stupid in freeze mage and you could have 2 of those - the mage does have enough time to deal over 50 damage just by spells and without alextrasza that way.
coldlight oracle removal is actually the exact same reasoning as naturalize. it's not because of "druid should struggle against big minions", but because it created frustrating situations where naturalize x2 could overdraw for A LOT. having spell discovery makes this card even more toxic.
doomguard - way too powerful for its cost. not only it's a 5/7, but it's also a demon (meaning you can just summon him via some cards for a much lesser cost) and he also has CHARGE, which created stupid all in situations. very frustrating to play against. not to mention that cube value from this was through the roof
divine favor - the exact same thing: frustrating and unfair for its cost. this card has to draw 2 in order to pay for its cost. any more than that and it's a hyper value. this card also created frustrating situations where you had to play around it by playing whatever the hell you can just so you can empty your hand and deny the value. this card was the backbone of a secret or any other aggro paladin.
anyway, each and every card in HoF is there for a good reason. not just because they're unfair and unbalanced, but because they're also frustrating to play against. i do miss azure drake as it's the favorite card of mine and although used in pretty much every deck, it was far more balanced and far more fair than other cards in there. i sure do hope leeroy as well as quite a few rogue cards (like sap) get hit really hard in the near future.
The logic behind the Hall of Shame is always a bit off.
Naturalize was for the most part a disregarded card, since giving your opponent 2 cards was usually not worth the cheap destroy effect. The talk about "class identity" was that Druid is supposed to have trouble with big minions. The argument is somewhat fair, since Lesser Jasper Spellstone rotated along with it, but it was likely done because of Mecha'thun combos. In my opinion. the downside of Naturalize (and Mulch) already indicated that Druid is supposed to have problems with killing minions.
Doomguard was rotated "to limit the amount of damage a Warlock can deal from their hand" (Patchnote). Don't ask why they kept Soulfire and Leeroy Jenkins around, and released Nether Breath in DoD.
Divine Favor was sacked, because card draw was supposed to be a weakness of Paladin, especially for aggressive decks, and they wanted to have more control over the powerlevel of the class. Again, fair statement, though Secret Paladin in Rise of Shadows showed just how terrible aggressive Paladin decks usually are without it. There's Mech Paladin now, which can go without it due to it's higher curve, but that deck won't survive the next rotation. They did not remove a strength, but a playstyle from the class.
*Whining paragraph*
Divine Favor wasn't removed to create a weakness, it was just an evergreen draw card that they wanted to cycle out. Paladin is about the only class that can run Chef Nomi, and has a deck built around Shirvallah, so dont claim card draw is a weakness
Doomguard Cubelock combos were dealing 25-30 damage per turn, and with silence being a mechanic nerfed to the ground, there wasn't that much counterplay. Leeroy may yet be phased out this next season, but that combo is still only 10 damage.
Naturalize was great removal and punished a lot of forms of counterplay, and as a tech vs control decks, the draw 2 was no longer a downside.
There was good reason to rotate these cards. And there are other classic cards that should also go. Not being able to climb using 1-2TKO combos doesnt give any merit to your whining.
Nice trolling.
I actually took a minute to look up the official reasoning. We can speculate all day about the "real" reasons, but in the end, the official one is the one that counts. And even if we had no explanation whatsoever, you are talking nonsense.
The massive deck-thinning of Tip the Scales is the reason behind Nomi in A Paladin deck (and it was also played in some Quest/Highlander Druids). TTS is not even card draw in the technical sense, and only really playable due to Prismatic Lens. You can say that other classes have it worse, but Paladin is certainly no good class for card draw in general. Whether you like it or not, Divine Favor was removed as a strength of aggressive Paladin decks. Or as it was stated: "Over the past several years, we've seen a number of strong, aggressive Paladin decks. While we like Paladin's identity as a minion-summoning and minion-buffing class with a fair amount of resource generation, card draw doesn't also need to be one of the Paladin's strengths."
Your assumption that Doomguard was rotated because of Cubelock doesn't even make sense, since it was rotated alongside Skull of the Man'ari and the rather important Carnivorous Cube, along with the rest of Kobolds, Frozen Throne and Un'goro; in other words, almost the entire rest of the deck.
And even if you hated that deck so much that you assume I must have played it, the Silence mechanic was not "nerfed to the ground", only Keeper of the Grove was hit pretty badly. Mechanically, Silence wasn't nerfed at all. Ironbeak Owl was still a decent pick in Odd decks, and Spellbreaker was in common use across several classes in 2018. And it's still in Classic, unnerfed, just like Silence, Earth Shock, and Mass Dispel.
I think the reasons provided for nerfs and rotations oftentimes turn out meager, and the back and forth on Classic and Basic is annoying me. I honestly think, if any decent old card comes under scrutiny just because it's always in Standard, and assumed to possibly create issues in the future, they should really consider removing those sets entirely in favor of something else. If that sounds to you like "whining", fine with me. Considering the rest of your posting, I really don't care what you think.
Really disagreed with the Doomguard hof. Its very possibly because I loved the card but then they print a 2 mana deal 4 which seems ironic.
Divine Favor is a straight out busted card that 50% of your matchups is going to draw you way too many cards for its cost taking absolutely no skill except remembering to include it.
Naturalize is a good hof because imo it's just a stupid card that is really versatile for just 1 mana.
Iceblock couldve stayed if they printed some actually useful tech against it ideally in classic (no one wants to run i4ni).
Into the future I just don't see Leeroy getting the hof hatchet: he rly isnt that op on paper being a bad fireball. Theres rly not so many shenanigans in rezzing him or boosting his damage, honestly Zephrys is 10x more of a threat. Not to mention what an icon he is.
Edwin is the real issue. This card feeds you wins way more than Jenks does. Again, it could be possibly addressed by pushing a new playable silence neutral.
People constantly seem to forget that the point with Hall of Fame isn't to get rid of op cards, but to switch things up a little and create more design space. Remember the first round of HoF in 2017? Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Azure Drake... They were all solid cards, not op, but flexible enough that they could see play in many different decks. So people got tired of them, and they were HoF'ed to keep standard fresh. Naturalize, Divine Favor and Doomguard? They had been played massively in the last year before they were HoF'ed. People were tired of playing against them, so... they were HoF'ed.
Cards that are op, standard or otherwise, gets nerfed. Cards from the standard set that have seen so much play that people have gotten sick of them gets HoF'ed.
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I can understand why Ice Block Giant and Murloc was moved to HoF in 2018 (frustrated, high priest thekal and odd decks draw).
But I totally can't get why they did it to Doomguard, Divine favor and Naturalize. Any wombo-combo? So there wouldn't be any logic in 2020 HoF
Any comments?
because these cards were against their class identity. Warlock is supossed to have little to no burst damage while druids weaknis is to deal with big threads. Divine favor was just a very very strong card in any aggro deck like odd paladin.
Same reason they’ve nerfed equality into the oblivion.
Also the reason why they removed any potential for mill decks in standard. Nobody knows, probably even they. Talking about class identity is really stupid when there are none. Class decks change from one expansion to another. One day warrior is heavy control class, next day he just kills you on turn 8.
Really OP cards that are staple in every class deck deserve being moved to HoF or a nerf on very rare occasions (nerfs killed Druid till this expansion). Others are good.
Play against Mech Paladin in wild with a control or combo deck and you'll find out why Divine favor was banned from standard.
The logic behind the Hall of Shame is always a bit off.
Naturalize was for the most part a disregarded card, since giving your opponent 2 cards was usually not worth the cheap destroy effect. The talk about "class identity" was that Druid is supposed to have trouble with big minions. The argument is somewhat fair, since Lesser Jasper Spellstone rotated along with it, but it was likely done because of Mecha'thun combos. In my opinion. the downside of Naturalize (and Mulch) already indicated that Druid is supposed to have problems with killing minions.
Doomguard was rotated "to limit the amount of damage a Warlock can deal from their hand" (Patchnote). Don't ask why they kept Soulfire and Leeroy Jenkins around, and released Nether Breath in DoD.
Divine Favor was sacked, because card draw was supposed to be a weakness of Paladin, especially for aggressive decks, and they wanted to have more control over the powerlevel of the class. Again, fair statement, though Secret Paladin in Rise of Shadows showed just how terrible aggressive Paladin decks usually are without it. There's Mech Paladin now, which can go without it due to it's higher curve, but that deck won't survive the next rotation. They did not remove a strength, but a playstyle from the class.
They always find a reason to rotate something, but more often than not, you can find better reasons why they should not. And whenever they speak of design space and "we want to limit the influence of the Classic set", I just wonder why they even bother having permanent sets in Standard anyway.
Naturalize used to be considered a trash card, which made it indicative of Druids bad removal ability. However, the games power level has shot up over time. Naturalize was actually seeing standard play prior to it’s rotation, because Druid was given such ridiculously powerful draw and defensive capabilities that he could care less if you draw 2 cards. This continues to be the case in wild.
Draw is not a weakness of Paladin, they printed a 1 mana draw 2 into the class. DF was rotated simply to allow other good draw to be printed. They have been chipping away at the basic/classic sets like this for some time to create new design space when it’s convenient for them. Team 5 is too lazy to just rotate the entire classic set and actually become competent game designers.
It's largely just soft nerfing - doomguard was on the back of cubelock. Divine favour is still the most insane aggro draw engine ever.
Doomgaurd was in both Zoolock and Cubelock and was particularly oppressive in Cubelock. Divine Favor has been on the hof wish list for a long time, the card was just nuts broken (and still is in wild), you had to be crazy to think otherwise. Naturalise was moved because it is against Druid's identity of having efficient removal.
Divine Favor wasn't removed to create a weakness, it was just an evergreen draw card that they wanted to cycle out. Paladin is about the only class that can run Chef Nomi, and has a deck built around Shirvallah, so dont claim card draw is a weakness
Doomguard Cubelock combos were dealing 25-30 damage per turn, and with silence being a mechanic nerfed to the ground, there wasn't that much counterplay. Leeroy may yet be phased out this next season, but that combo is still only 10 damage.
Naturalize was great removal and punished a lot of forms of counterplay, and as a tech vs control decks, the draw 2 was no longer a downside.
There was good reason to rotate these cards. And there are other classic cards that should also go. Not being able to climb using 1-2TKO combos doesnt give any merit to your whining.
Divine Favor: Holds back a lot of design space, Paladin's class identity is typically minion heavy and aggressive, this would make any cheap minions printed for paladin way too strong for Standard.
Naturalize: In early years of HS this was a completely disregarded card however when Druid got a bunch of defensive cards the downside wasn't that bad, especially against control and combo decks. Druid is supposed to have difficulty removing big minions so this one makes a lot of sense.
Doomguard: Honestly this is one of the few cards I don't think should have been HoF'd, it was really only problematic in Cubelock, a lot of the cards from that deck were just gonna rotate and since Leeroy still remains it was really redundant.
it's primarily the community that wanted these cards out. they're frustrating to play against and they did name that as their primary reason. iceblock was just stupid in freeze mage and you could have 2 of those - the mage does have enough time to deal over 50 damage just by spells and without alextrasza that way.
coldlight oracle removal is actually the exact same reasoning as naturalize. it's not because of "druid should struggle against big minions", but because it created frustrating situations where naturalize x2 could overdraw for A LOT. having spell discovery makes this card even more toxic.
doomguard - way too powerful for its cost. not only it's a 5/7, but it's also a demon (meaning you can just summon him via some cards for a much lesser cost) and he also has CHARGE, which created stupid all in situations. very frustrating to play against. not to mention that cube value from this was through the roof
divine favor - the exact same thing: frustrating and unfair for its cost. this card has to draw 2 in order to pay for its cost. any more than that and it's a hyper value. this card also created frustrating situations where you had to play around it by playing whatever the hell you can just so you can empty your hand and deny the value. this card was the backbone of a secret or any other aggro paladin.
anyway, each and every card in HoF is there for a good reason. not just because they're unfair and unbalanced, but because they're also frustrating to play against. i do miss azure drake as it's the favorite card of mine and although used in pretty much every deck, it was far more balanced and far more fair than other cards in there. i sure do hope leeroy as well as quite a few rogue cards (like sap) get hit really hard in the near future.
Nice trolling.
I actually took a minute to look up the official reasoning. We can speculate all day about the "real" reasons, but in the end, the official one is the one that counts. And even if we had no explanation whatsoever, you are talking nonsense.
The massive deck-thinning of Tip the Scales is the reason behind Nomi in A Paladin deck (and it was also played in some Quest/Highlander Druids). TTS is not even card draw in the technical sense, and only really playable due to Prismatic Lens. You can say that other classes have it worse, but Paladin is certainly no good class for card draw in general. Whether you like it or not, Divine Favor was removed as a strength of aggressive Paladin decks. Or as it was stated: "Over the past several years, we've seen a number of strong, aggressive Paladin decks. While we like Paladin's identity as a minion-summoning and minion-buffing class with a fair amount of resource generation, card draw doesn't also need to be one of the Paladin's strengths."
Your assumption that Doomguard was rotated because of Cubelock doesn't even make sense, since it was rotated alongside Skull of the Man'ari and the rather important Carnivorous Cube, along with the rest of Kobolds, Frozen Throne and Un'goro; in other words, almost the entire rest of the deck.
And even if you hated that deck so much that you assume I must have played it, the Silence mechanic was not "nerfed to the ground", only Keeper of the Grove was hit pretty badly. Mechanically, Silence wasn't nerfed at all. Ironbeak Owl was still a decent pick in Odd decks, and Spellbreaker was in common use across several classes in 2018. And it's still in Classic, unnerfed, just like Silence, Earth Shock, and Mass Dispel.
I think the reasons provided for nerfs and rotations oftentimes turn out meager, and the back and forth on Classic and Basic is annoying me. I honestly think, if any decent old card comes under scrutiny just because it's always in Standard, and assumed to possibly create issues in the future, they should really consider removing those sets entirely in favor of something else. If that sounds to you like "whining", fine with me. Considering the rest of your posting, I really don't care what you think.
Really disagreed with the Doomguard hof. Its very possibly because I loved the card but then they print a 2 mana deal 4 which seems ironic.
Divine Favor is a straight out busted card that 50% of your matchups is going to draw you way too many cards for its cost taking absolutely no skill except remembering to include it.
Naturalize is a good hof because imo it's just a stupid card that is really versatile for just 1 mana.
Iceblock couldve stayed if they printed some actually useful tech against it ideally in classic (no one wants to run i4ni).
Into the future I just don't see Leeroy getting the hof hatchet: he rly isnt that op on paper being a bad fireball. Theres rly not so many shenanigans in rezzing him or boosting his damage, honestly Zephrys is 10x more of a threat. Not to mention what an icon he is.
Edwin is the real issue. This card feeds you wins way more than Jenks does. Again, it could be possibly addressed by pushing a new playable silence neutral.
People constantly seem to forget that the point with Hall of Fame isn't to get rid of op cards, but to switch things up a little and create more design space. Remember the first round of HoF in 2017? Sylvanas, Ragnaros, Azure Drake... They were all solid cards, not op, but flexible enough that they could see play in many different decks. So people got tired of them, and they were HoF'ed to keep standard fresh. Naturalize, Divine Favor and Doomguard? They had been played massively in the last year before they were HoF'ed. People were tired of playing against them, so... they were HoF'ed.
Cards that are op, standard or otherwise, gets nerfed. Cards from the standard set that have seen so much play that people have gotten sick of them gets HoF'ed.