Hearthpwn

Quote from asteroidm >>

Quote from TardisGreen >>

Quote from emkarab >>

it's not whining. It's just stating a fact - aggro and Deathrattle Rogue create meta unplayable for dragons. One can be sad or happy about it.

Try again.

Here are the some of the reasons why we don't see that many dragon decks.

• deck expense
• skill requirement
• Galakrond, the Nightmare/Tempest/Wretched/Unbreakable

But the most important reason of all:

• the Dragons and their synergy cards are just not that good.

Lets start with one of the first cards revealed, Breath of Dreams.  67.9% of the "distinguished" Hearthpwn community rated the cards as "meta-defining".  LULZ.  Over 2/3 of the community were dead wrong.  The card is Wild Growth together with draw a card, but conditionally.  And the condition is huge.  Druid has very limited access to Dragons and a spotty history with that tribe.  But aside from that, the biggest payoff from WG on curve was a strong play on turn four.  But there is no more Oaken Summons or Branching Paths.  Druid just doesn't have a particularly strong play on four even if they pull off BoD on turn two.

Many of the other cards follow a similar trend.  Frizz Kindleroost (meta defining according to 69.6% of those participating in the poll, more LULZ), is underperforming and players are considering dropping the card from their decks.  Ysera 2 is too slow (so sad about this).  Nozdormu 2 is even less playable than Nozdormu 1.  Maygos 2 is OK, but not broken enough to make a real impact.  Likewise for many of the other Dragon and dragon-synergy cards.

Meanwhile, Devoted Maniac, (labeled as Bad by 47.6%, and Dust by 18.9%) is the most played card in Standard.  Its an auto include in every Galakrond deck, and every Galakrond deck save Priest is broken.

In Constructed play, "good" cards just don't cut it.  The cards (and the decks) have to do extremely broken things to be competitive. Dragons are good, but not good enough.

Your "facts" are in error, just like the ridiculously wrong evaluations of many of  the cards from this x-pac.

 ...huh?  I mean some of your points are completely salient but in no way refute the person you quoted.  Some I disagree with though.  In truth you are both right in some ways. 

Firstly, what do you mean druid has limited access to dragons?  This is simply not true and the condition is hardly huge.  It's stupid easy to meat.  Also twighlight drake is a power turn 4 play after playing a ramp card that ALSO drew you a card.  Druid's issue is, it's just too damn slow, even with the ramp.  Taking turn two to ramp against a pirate warrior is just very difficult proposition when they can essentially put up to 4 minions on their turn two while literally generating more value in their hand.  Anyhow that is just an example.  My point is that the card is good, druid dragons are good, BUT they aren't fast enough in this meta.  I think the quoted person to be right in this case.

I think your assessment of Frizz, Nozdormu and Ysera are spot on.  Too slow.  Which is why I am confused about why you are arguing with the quoted person.  If something is two slow, what sort of decks punish the shit out of that?  Tempo and Aggro, the two decks types he listed. (as DR rogue is a tempo deck). 

As far as devoted maniac goes, the card was rated bad when people were still fuzzy on how Invoke would work.  It's why I rated it badly.  Also it's in every Galakrond deck because no one gets more than 8 invoke cards.  It essentially HAS to be in there.  If I had the option I would play different invoke cards I would. That being said now that I understand how the card works I'd rate it as playable.  Cause it is.

I guess I just don't know why you are arguing with him.  Good aggro decks make it hard to play  slower type decks.  Aggro beats midrange.  Dragon Druid is midrange.  When the better decks are aggro and Tempo then yeah, midrange is gonna suffer badly.  You can take what would otherwise be strong cards and they become a LOT worse.

 You missed the point.

Quote from Jonesy978 >>

Dragon decks are missing just a few cards to make them truly viable. The problem right now is that every Galakron deck (except Priest) has a very powerful late game. The only way to counter that is with a very strong early game... hence, the rise of aggro decks.

Dragon decks are good mid-range decks but lack both a very strong start and a powerful late game. I really wanted Dragon Paladin to work but it simply doesn't have enough good early game Dragons (and no 1-drops) and no late game. Indeed, the Dragon legendary cards for Paladin are complete trash.

So how can that deck compete with Galakrond on turn 7 or 8? It can't.

I have been trying Highlander Dragon decks recently and they're more competitive, because Dragonqueen Alexstrasa alone is very powerful. But even then, it's at best Tier 2.

 This.

Dragon decks are, of course, vulnerable to Aggro.  But they aren't very good against the Galakrond decks.

The most popular decks in the game include Galakrond Warrior, Galakrond Rogue, Galakrond Shaman, and Galakrond Warlock.  Some of these have Highlander and non-Highlander sub-variants.  Collectively, they make up about 36% of the Meta across all ranks.  Most are all Tier 1/2 decks; none are "aggro".

The Dragon decks are simply inferior.  Not by a lot.  But in between getting beat up by Aggro AND having less than stellar matchups vs the Galakrond decks, they are hard to climb with.  And considering how expensive they are, it's no surprise that aren't particularly popular.

Quote from TardisGreen >>

Quote from asteroidm >>

Quote from TardisGreen >>

Quote from emkarab >>

it's not whining. It's just stating a fact - aggro and Deathrattle Rogue create meta unplayable for dragons. One can be sad or happy about it.

Try again.

Here are the some of the reasons why we don't see that many dragon decks.

• deck expense
• skill requirement
• Galakrond, the Nightmare/Tempest/Wretched/Unbreakable

But the most important reason of all:

• the Dragons and their synergy cards are just not that good.

Lets start with one of the first cards revealed, Breath of Dreams.  67.9% of the "distinguished" Hearthpwn community rated the cards as "meta-defining".  LULZ.  Over 2/3 of the community were dead wrong.  The card is Wild Growth together with draw a card, but conditionally.  And the condition is huge.  Druid has very limited access to Dragons and a spotty history with that tribe.  But aside from that, the biggest payoff from WG on curve was a strong play on turn four.  But there is no more Oaken Summons or Branching Paths.  Druid just doesn't have a particularly strong play on four even if they pull off BoD on turn two.

Many of the other cards follow a similar trend.  Frizz Kindleroost (meta defining according to 69.6% of those participating in the poll, more LULZ), is underperforming and players are considering dropping the card from their decks.  Ysera 2 is too slow (so sad about this).  Nozdormu 2 is even less playable than Nozdormu 1.  Maygos 2 is OK, but not broken enough to make a real impact.  Likewise for many of the other Dragon and dragon-synergy cards.

Meanwhile, Devoted Maniac, (labeled as Bad by 47.6%, and Dust by 18.9%) is the most played card in Standard.  Its an auto include in every Galakrond deck, and every Galakrond deck save Priest is broken.

In Constructed play, "good" cards just don't cut it.  The cards (and the decks) have to do extremely broken things to be competitive. Dragons are good, but not good enough.

Your "facts" are in error, just like the ridiculously wrong evaluations of many of  the cards from this x-pac.

 ...huh?  I mean some of your points are completely salient but in no way refute the person you quoted.  Some I disagree with though.  In truth you are both right in some ways. 

Firstly, what do you mean druid has limited access to dragons?  This is simply not true and the condition is hardly huge.  It's stupid easy to meat.  Also twighlight drake is a power turn 4 play after playing a ramp card that ALSO drew you a card.  Druid's issue is, it's just too damn slow, even with the ramp.  Taking turn two to ramp against a pirate warrior is just very difficult proposition when they can essentially put up to 4 minions on their turn two while literally generating more value in their hand.  Anyhow that is just an example.  My point is that the card is good, druid dragons are good, BUT they aren't fast enough in this meta.  I think the quoted person to be right in this case.

I think your assessment of Frizz, Nozdormu and Ysera are spot on.  Too slow.  Which is why I am confused about why you are arguing with the quoted person.  If something is two slow, what sort of decks punish the shit out of that?  Tempo and Aggro, the two decks types he listed. (as DR rogue is a tempo deck). 

As far as devoted maniac goes, the card was rated bad when people were still fuzzy on how Invoke would work.  It's why I rated it badly.  Also it's in every Galakrond deck because no one gets more than 8 invoke cards.  It essentially HAS to be in there.  If I had the option I would play different invoke cards I would. That being said now that I understand how the card works I'd rate it as playable.  Cause it is.

I guess I just don't know why you are arguing with him.  Good aggro decks make it hard to play  slower type decks.  Aggro beats midrange.  Dragon Druid is midrange.  When the better decks are aggro and Tempo then yeah, midrange is gonna suffer badly.  You can take what would otherwise be strong cards and they become a LOT worse.

 You missed the point.

Quote from Jonesy978 >>

Dragon decks are missing just a few cards to make them truly viable. The problem right now is that every Galakron deck (except Priest) has a very powerful late game. The only way to counter that is with a very strong early game... hence, the rise of aggro decks.

Dragon decks are good mid-range decks but lack both a very strong start and a powerful late game. I really wanted Dragon Paladin to work but it simply doesn't have enough good early game Dragons (and no 1-drops) and no late game. Indeed, the Dragon legendary cards for Paladin are complete trash.

So how can that deck compete with Galakrond on turn 7 or 8? It can't.

I have been trying Highlander Dragon decks recently and they're more competitive, because Dragonqueen Alexstrasa alone is very powerful. But even then, it's at best Tier 2.

 This.

Dragon decks are, of course, vulnerable to Aggro.  But they aren't very good against the Galakrond decks.

The most popular decks in the game include Galakrond Warrior, Galakrond Rogue, Galakrond Shaman, and Galakrond Warlock.  Some of these have Highlander and non-Highlander sub-variants.  Collectively, they make up about 36% of the Meta across all ranks.  Most are all Tier 1/2 decks; none are "aggro".

The Dragon decks are simply inferior.  Not by a lot.  But in between getting beat up by Aggro AND having less than stellar matchups vs the Galakrond decks, they are hard to climb with.  And considering how expensive they are, it's no surprise that aren't particularly popular.

Correlation =/= causation.  At least not in totality.  I mean I am not sure why you go out of your way to mention Galakrond decks to be the issue but ignore the even MORE populace aggro and Tempo decks.  Pirate Warrior, Facehunter, Token Druid, Deathrattle Rogue.

Like I said, MY point was I don't know why you were arguing with the guy telling him he was wrong.  So YOU missed what I was saying.  You are BOTH right.  Galakrond, Tempo, AND aggro are THE most populace decks and ALL of them are good against Dragons.  

I'll reiterate, you were both right but you seem so hellbent on being right at the cost of others you didn't stop to realize that neither of  you are wrong.  

This is not an "aggro meta." There are plenty of people playing midrange and control.

If you think a slow deck cannot stand up against aggro, you are misinformed. Control decks are slow by definition, and their entire reason for being is to prey on aggro decks.

It is entirely possible to use Dragons in a control deck. It doesn't have the same feel as the midrange Dragon deck you envisioned, but it works.

So no, aggro decks do not push the entire Dragon tribe out of the meta. Aggro decks only push "midrange-only" players out of the meta.

If you people would quit crying long enough to switch to control for a while, you'd both A) win more games, and B) make aggro less attractive to those who are playing aggro.

If you can't bear to play control, you must accept that aggro will usually beat you. Aggro is supposed to beat midrange most of the time, no matter how strong the midrange build is. When that stops being true, it means the meta is broken and in need of a balance patch.

Quote from FortyDust >>

This is not an "aggro meta." There are plenty of people playing midrange and control.

If you think a slow deck cannot stand up against aggro, you are misinformed. Control decks are slow by definition, and their entire reason for being is to prey on aggro decks.

It is entirely possible to use Dragons in a control deck. It doesn't have the same feel as the midrange Dragon deck you envisioned, but it works.

So no, aggro decks do not push the entire Dragon tribe out of the meta. Aggro decks only push "midrange-only" players out of the meta.

If you people would quit crying long enough to switch to control for a while, you'd both A) win more games, and B) make aggro less attractive to those who are playing aggro.

If you can't bear to play control, you must accept that aggro will usually beat you. Aggro is supposed to beat midrange most of the time, no matter how strong the midrange build is. When that stops being true, it means the meta is broken and in need of a balance patch.

 Not sure if you are replaying to me or in general.  If you are replaying to me then just let me say I agree.   However I think the real issue with dragon control is that most of the new ones aren't "control" type dragons.  They are very much a Midrange bodies, midrange costed and a midrange effects.  Missing the Primordial Dragon myself.  Good news though is that if we, as you said, start playing more control to counter act aggro then Midrange will become more popular as a counter.  

Actually want to start playing quest priest cause it works so well against aggro.

It was general. If I'm talking to someone specifically, I'll use Reply or Quote. ;-)

Quote from FortyDust >>

It was general. If I'm talking to someone specifically, I'll use Reply or Quote. ;-)

 Though I think the new control priest deck, or should I say resurgence of the control priest deck is rough for midrange since it likes to buff it's controlly creatures to midrange or bigger stats.  I haven't tried a midrange deck against it specifically but I have lost to it numerous times with Deathrattle rogue.

So, I started trying to play Quest Dragon Murloc Shaman today. Combining Corrupt the Waters with Skyfin. Cobalt Spellkin is fantastic when it triggers twice in shaman. Getting 4 Lightning Bolt, Voltaic Burst, or Forked Lightning is great, and Lightning Breath is probably the best Dragon spell by far.

As far as Dragon Battlecries to double, (aside from Firetree Witchdoctor and Scalerider, Dragonmaw Scorcher is great for killing Reborn minions, Twin Tyrant can kill 2 Raging Storms by itself, and Big Ol' Whelp is your refill.

My winrate is awful. It's like 30%. But it's incredibly fun and satisfying to at least *try* and live the Dragon dream.

Aggro is cancer, the players using it is cancer, and you will find one in 80% of your matches (at least in wild), the other 19% are brainless combos, 1% are decent players.

Or you accept this, or you quit.

That's the only truth you need.

Quote from Hedwyn_nl >>

Aggro is cancer, the players using it is cancer, and you will find one in 80% of your matches (at least in wild), the other 19% are brainless combos, 1% are decent players.

Or you accept this, or you quit.

That's the only truth you need.

 Translated: Everyone should wait so I can drop all my greedy cards and be guaranteed a win because I've got more stuff than you.

If you can't beat aggro with a control deck you are doing it wrong. Control against aggro is a favorable matchup you should win about 60-70% of the time. 

Quote from Echtvad >>

If you can't beat aggro with a control deck you are doing it wrong. Control against aggro is a favorable matchup you should win about 60-70% of the time. 

 Agree. My guess is that it’s build to greedy. Even Control decks need some earlygame. ( except they have some ridiculous hp gain like Odd Warrior) 

My Dragon Paladin usually is very good vs aggro, but too slow vs Deathrattle Rogue and stuff like that.

Quote from Hedwyn_nl >>

Aggro is cancer, the players using it is cancer, and you will find one in 80% of your matches (at least in wild), the other 19% are brainless combos, 1% are decent players.

Or you accept this, or you quit.

That's the only truth you need.

 How very ignorant. In fact, the ignorance and intolerance in general in this thread is atrocious. 

While it's annoying to face up against Aggro Hunter or Pirate Warrior those decks are fairly beatable by a tuned control deck (Warrior, Priest and Shaman are the best).

The worst thing atm is Necrium Apothecary because you need an immediate answer to it or you are pretty doomed. It reminds me of Barnes in the old Resurrect Priest, but it's even more frustrating to deal with because the buffed minions have charge. Those polarizing cards are okay, but not when they're at 4 mana.

I disagree. Aggro didn't kill all dragons, quite a few are seeing some play. Now if you mean like pure all out Dragon Decks, then no that's not happening and it never was going to happen. Even if aggro wasn't hot, decks built all around dragons would get beat up by control decks, flood decks, combo decks and lot of other stuff. You can't just expect to win by curving minions right now (and thank goodness for that), you have to tech and counter with spells and have a deck with a strategy. I like the fact that you pick and choose a few dragons for their specialized use here and there. If the meta was such that you could stuff your deck with 15 dragons, then it would be like "Oh I'm just going to play the best dragon I have on this turn, and repeat on the next turn and next turn and THEN I'll summon and even BIGGER dragon!" you think you want that but you don't. Curvestone is lame, it was a problem we had in TGT with Tree Paladin and then again in ONiK with Shamanstone and it was awful.

I agree aggro killed the dragons 

Quote from TheArcanist236 >>

Quote from Zion7 >>

I disagree. Aggro didn't kill all dragons, quite a few are seeing some play. Now if you mean like pure all out Dragon Decks, then no that's not happening and it never was going to happen. Even if aggro wasn't hot, decks built all around dragons would get beat up by control decks, flood decks, combo decks and lot of other stuff. You can't just expect to win by curving minions right now (and thank goodness for that), you have to tech and counter with spells and have a deck with a strategy. I like the fact that you pick and choose a few dragons for their specialized use here and there. If the meta was such that you could stuff your deck with 15 dragons, then it would be like "Oh I'm just going to play the best dragon I have on this turn, and repeat on the next turn and next turn and THEN I'll summon and even BIGGER dragon!" you think you want that but you don't. Curvestone is lame, it was a problem we had in TGT with Tree Paladin and then again in ONiK with Shamanstone and it was awful.

 Remember Dragon Priest? Dragon Priest would run Duskbreaker, Drakonid Operative, Twilight Whelp and a ton of Dragon synergy (Blackwing Corruptor, Netherspite Historian). A Dragon deck is able to succeed. I don't just want to slam an Ysera followed by a Deathwing. I want those insane tempo/synergy builds like Dragon Priest. I was hoping there would be at least one or two decks like this.

You want to play Curvestone?  Play your (over-stated) 1-drop on turn 1, followed by your 2-drop on turn 2, 3-drop on 3, etc.

Boring!

That deck had very few dynamic decisions.  It didn't really matter what you were playing against, or what they had on board.  You just followed the curve.

And, in case you forgot, that deck was destroyed by both Aggro Shaman and Pirate Warrior.  Midrange decks lose to Aggro.  Some things never change.

Galakrond is a Dragon. There are a few Galakrond decks that are Tier 1 & 2 on HSReplay. Galakrond cards reward the player in the mid to late game therefore aggro decks will exist to counter those powerful effects. The premise of this topic that "there aren't any dragon decks" isn't accurate at all. Are there plenty of dragon cards in this expansion that aren't seeing competitive play, of course but that doesn't mean Aggro killed the dragons nor that there aren't any viable Tier 1 & 2 Galakrond decks...

Quote from TheArcanist236 >>

Quote from Zion7 >>

I disagree. Aggro didn't kill all dragons, quite a few are seeing some play. Now if you mean like pure all out Dragon Decks, then no that's not happening and it never was going to happen. Even if aggro wasn't hot, decks built all around dragons would get beat up by control decks, flood decks, combo decks and lot of other stuff. You can't just expect to win by curving minions right now (and thank goodness for that), you have to tech and counter with spells and have a deck with a strategy. I like the fact that you pick and choose a few dragons for their specialized use here and there. If the meta was such that you could stuff your deck with 15 dragons, then it would be like "Oh I'm just going to play the best dragon I have on this turn, and repeat on the next turn and next turn and THEN I'll summon and even BIGGER dragon!" you think you want that but you don't. Curvestone is lame, it was a problem we had in TGT with Tree Paladin and then again in ONiK with Shamanstone and it was awful.

 Remember Dragon Priest? Dragon Priest would run Duskbreaker, Drakonid Operative, Twilight Whelp and a ton of Dragon synergy (Blackwing Corruptor, Netherspite Historian). A Dragon deck is able to succeed. I don't just want to slam an Ysera followed by a Deathwing. I want those insane tempo/synergy builds like Dragon Priest. I was hoping there would be at least one or two decks like this.

Don't remind me. Drakonid operative scarred me for life.