Can someone explain to me why, when they're talking about the need for a Rogue nerf, they suddenly say Hex needs a nerf???
"Considering the extremely high prevalence of Lackey Rogue, and the fact that its win rate is still the best in the game, we feel that it’s unlikely that the meta will simply balance itself out in a natural process. Balance changes will probably have to be made to re-boot the current power levels we observe. There’s just no way around it. Hex needs to be nerfed to 5 mana. As soon as possible."
EDIT: Ok it's a joke. They're referring back to the times when Flametongue Totem and before that Hex were both nerfed when Shaman wasn't strong in the meta. Which reminds me of the Mana Wyrm nerf. So it's sarcasm. Never mind.
Can someone explain to me why, when they're talking about the need for a Rogue nerf, they suddenly say Hex needs a nerf???
"Considering the extremely high prevalence of Lackey Rogue, and the fact that its win rate is still the best in the game, we feel that it’s unlikely that the meta will simply balance itself out in a natural process. Balance changes will probably have to be made to re-boot the current power levels we observe. There’s just no way around it. Hex needs to be nerfed to 5 mana. As soon as possible."
They're probably doing a bit about the previous unprompted Hex nerf.
You're wrong. Go onto HSReplay and look at Rogue's winrates against everything but Control Warrior. That's what's bringing Rogue's winrate down. The price for that is a plague of Control Warriors. It's totally warped the meta as much as any deck ever.
You're wrong. Go onto HSReplay and look at Rogue's winrates against everything but Control Warrior. That's what's bringing Rogue's winrate down. The price for that is a plague of Control Warriors. It's totally warped the meta as much as any deck ever.
It's like Razakus Priest. He was not so very effective coz had a lot of counters and all decks played around exactly 1 deck and wr Razakus priest was around tier 2 decks, but it was main oppresor of the meta. War and Rogue the same, Blizz must nerf them.
You're wrong. Go onto HSReplay and look at Rogue's winrates against everything but Control Warrior. That's what's bringing Rogue's winrate down. The price for that is a plague of Control Warriors. It's totally warped the meta as much as any deck ever.
Since the beginning of hs i played mostly rogue. And this meta right now makes me really upset. Yes, Rogue has powerlevel issues now and probably will get a nerf to one of the classic cards.
Rogue isn't much more powerful than how it was before the rotation. It's just that tempo rogue deck didn't loose as many cards as others. And it's not too absurd to say that new cards wouldn't even be played if they existed 2 months ago. The deck was hardly a tier 2 by the way.
The problem is that every other class/deck is a lot weaker now. Warlock has bullshit cards. Druid was nerfed a thousand times because of Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague but those cards don't exist anymore. So why not unnerf these cards? 3 mana Hex, 1 mana Hunter's Mark and Naturalize would all be ok cards in the current meta. Even additon of just an effective early game taunt like Tar Creeper or Saronite Chain Gang would keep things more under control.
So the problem is not that Rogue has broken cards. It is the lack of good cards for other classes in this set. And just because lot's classic cards are either nerfed and HOFed some classes struggle be viable. I beleive the solution to these type of problems are making temporary nerfs or temporary buffs. With every expansion some classes get out of hand like druid did the last year and make some changes obligatory. But making these changes permanent can make the class suffer forever. Making these temporary changes often (1 or 2 times every expansion) would give them huge flexibility and wouldn't kill the beloved classic cards.
@Farenough I agree. They nerf Hunter's Mark after it's already too late and then it's just an unnecessary weakness for Hunter. They're so late on most of these nerfs. The nerf to Naturalize gives you more of an idea of what they're trying to do. They don't want Druid to be able to do that. Ok fine, but if you're going to nerf Classic cards to refine/redefine the strengths and weaknesses of each class then be quick about it! Nerf cards of all classes across the board. Make sweeping changes all at once and balance the game. Why wait? They're super careful about it partially because there's no going back from a nerf...which is just dumb. Why limit your ability to fine tune the game and get the balance just right? Make a lot of changes, see how it goes, and dial a couple back if necessary. Their balance policy is maddening.
Rogue is most likely to continue to find a way after a nerf. Also most likely to receive a nerf. Warrior is unlikely to be nerfed but will suffer if Rogue is nerfed and more decks that counter Warrior (but lose to Rogue) are played. Druid probably won't be nerfed. It's a crapshoot. Don't know what to tell ya.
Since the beginning of hs i played mostly rogue. And this meta right now makes me really upset. Yes, Rogue has powerlevel issues now and probably will get a nerf to one of the classic cards.
Rogue isn't much more powerful than how it was before the rotation. It's just that tempo rogue deck didn't loose as many cards as others. And it's not too absurd to say that new cards wouldn't even be played if they existed 2 months ago. The deck was hardly a tier 2 by the way.
The problem is that every other class/deck is a lot weaker now. Warlock has bullshit cards. Druid was nerfed a thousand times because of Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague but those cards don't exist anymore. So why not unnerf these cards? 3 mana Hex, 1 mana Hunter's Mark and Naturalize would all be ok cards in the current meta. Even additon of just an effective early game taunt like Tar Creeper or Saronite Chain Gang would keep things more under control.
So the problem is not that Rogue has broken cards. It is the lack of good cards for other classes in this set. And just because lot's classic cards are either nerfed and HOFed some classes struggle be viable. I beleive the solution to these type of problems are making temporary nerfs or temporary buffs. With every expansion some classes get out of hand like druid did the last year and make some changes obligatory. But making these changes permanent can make the class suffer forever. Making these temporary changes often (1 or 2 times every expansion) would give them huge flexibility and wouldn't kill the beloved classic cards.
this is what I was saying on the rogue nerf thread pretty much. the rotation created a power vacuum that rogue was perfectly suited to take advantage of. it's artificially OP because of a lack of cards in rotation right now. The specific types of cards that are missing just happen to have been what could counter rogue (early board clears and taunts)
you used to drop a tar creeper and completely kill their tempo.
Since the beginning of hs i played mostly rogue. [...]
The problem is that every other class/deck is a lot weaker now. [...]
So the problem is not that Rogue has broken cards. It is the lack of good cards for other classes in this set.[...]
This made me chuckle. "The problem is not that my favorite class is op right now, it's just that the other I classes are not op enough to compete. Just buff all of them and it will be fine."
Yeah that certainly sounds more reasonable than nerfing rogue XD
Since the beginning of hs i played mostly rogue. [...]
The problem is that every other class/deck is a lot weaker now. [...]
So the problem is not that Rogue has broken cards. It is the lack of good cards for other classes in this set.[...]
This made me chuckle. "The problem is not that my favorite class is op right now, it's just that the other I classes are not op enough to compete. Just buff all of them and it will be fine."
Yeah that certainly sounds more reasonable than nerfing rogue XD
It does indeed.
The point is Rogue is probably gonna get a nerf now, i bet on Classic card, that will leave the class incredibly vulnerable for a long while.
Until they pump in new broken cards for it. Much like what happened in Druid.
The "floating balance" design policy has reached ridiculous extremes.
And the fact it is blindly applied to the Standard context only makes Wild broken as well.
There will NEVER be a meta where all classes are equal! It's impossible to do that. A healthy meta is a meta where 3/4 classes are the most played, and that's whats happening now! We have Mage, Druid, Rogue and Warrior seen a lot of play!
Rastakhan's Rumble was literally a meta where every single class had a playable deck in the meta that could compete with a good amount of other meta decks.
3/4 classes being played is literally the worst meta possible (as seen in Gadgetzan), as is a meta where one class just completely outclasses everyone else (like in Karazhan)
1) Rogue can do too many things in one turn, it's not their power level that bothers me, it's just how freaking long all the things they do take.
2) That card that creates a new 10 card deck for you has essentially ruined the fun of control matches. It goes from a skillful little ballet of attrition, to you not caring who wins anymore and just wanting the game to end. To the point where you are willing to just shoot yourself in the head and just do "whatever" so the agony ends. God forbid someone actually has a life they want to partake in the real world if you have any desire to play control.
1) Rogue can do too many things in one turn, it's not their power level that bothers me, it's just how freaking long all the things they do take.
2) That card that creates a new 10 card deck for you has essentially ruined the fun of control matches. It goes from a skillful little ballet of attrition, to you not caring who wins anymore and just wanting the game to end. To the point where you are willing to just shoot yourself in the head and just do "whatever" so the agony ends. God forbid someone actually has a life they want to partake in the real world if you have any desire to play control.
academic espionage is technically more broken and thief rogue messes up the greedy control decks. when cue into rogue I hope it's not an espionage rogue if I'm playing control. (than elysiana I mean)
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Can someone explain to me why, when they're talking about the need for a Rogue nerf, they suddenly say Hex needs a nerf???
"Considering the extremely high prevalence of Lackey Rogue, and the fact that its win rate is still the best in the game, we feel that it’s unlikely that the meta will simply balance itself out in a natural process. Balance changes will probably have to be made to re-boot the current power levels we observe. There’s just no way around it. Hex needs to be nerfed to 5 mana. As soon as possible."
EDIT: Ok it's a joke. They're referring back to the times when Flametongue Totem and before that Hex were both nerfed when Shaman wasn't strong in the meta. Which reminds me of the Mana Wyrm nerf. So it's sarcasm. Never mind.
They're probably doing a bit about the previous unprompted Hex nerf.
I assumed it was a typo or they just made some kind of error. It makes no sense.
You're wrong. Go onto HSReplay and look at Rogue's winrates against everything but Control Warrior. That's what's bringing Rogue's winrate down. The price for that is a plague of Control Warriors. It's totally warped the meta as much as any deck ever.
It's like Razakus Priest. He was not so very effective coz had a lot of counters and all decks played around exactly 1 deck and wr Razakus priest was around tier 2 decks, but it was main oppresor of the meta. War and Rogue the same, Blizz must nerf them.
We're looking at differing info from https://metastats.net/ (where Hearthstone Meta Decks pulls from) and https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/
I do see your point, though.
Since the beginning of hs i played mostly rogue. And this meta right now makes me really upset. Yes, Rogue has powerlevel issues now and probably will get a nerf to one of the classic cards.
Rogue isn't much more powerful than how it was before the rotation. It's just that tempo rogue deck didn't loose as many cards as others. And it's not too absurd to say that new cards wouldn't even be played if they existed 2 months ago. The deck was hardly a tier 2 by the way.
The problem is that every other class/deck is a lot weaker now. Warlock has bullshit cards. Druid was nerfed a thousand times because of Ultimate Infestation and Spreading Plague but those cards don't exist anymore. So why not unnerf these cards? 3 mana Hex, 1 mana Hunter's Mark and Naturalize would all be ok cards in the current meta. Even additon of just an effective early game taunt like Tar Creeper or Saronite Chain Gang would keep things more under control.
So the problem is not that Rogue has broken cards. It is the lack of good cards for other classes in this set. And just because lot's classic cards are either nerfed and HOFed some classes struggle be viable. I beleive the solution to these type of problems are making temporary nerfs or temporary buffs. With every expansion some classes get out of hand like druid did the last year and make some changes obligatory. But making these changes permanent can make the class suffer forever. Making these temporary changes often (1 or 2 times every expansion) would give them huge flexibility and wouldn't kill the beloved classic cards.
@Farenough I agree. They nerf Hunter's Mark after it's already too late and then it's just an unnecessary weakness for Hunter. They're so late on most of these nerfs. The nerf to Naturalize gives you more of an idea of what they're trying to do. They don't want Druid to be able to do that. Ok fine, but if you're going to nerf Classic cards to refine/redefine the strengths and weaknesses of each class then be quick about it! Nerf cards of all classes across the board. Make sweeping changes all at once and balance the game. Why wait? They're super careful about it partially because there's no going back from a nerf...which is just dumb. Why limit your ability to fine tune the game and get the balance just right? Make a lot of changes, see how it goes, and dial a couple back if necessary. Their balance policy is maddening.
Would you recommend crafting Rogue, Druid and Warrior decks right now?
Rogue is most likely to continue to find a way after a nerf. Also most likely to receive a nerf. Warrior is unlikely to be nerfed but will suffer if Rogue is nerfed and more decks that counter Warrior (but lose to Rogue) are played. Druid probably won't be nerfed. It's a crapshoot. Don't know what to tell ya.
this is what I was saying on the rogue nerf thread pretty much. the rotation created a power vacuum that rogue was perfectly suited to take advantage of. it's artificially OP because of a lack of cards in rotation right now. The specific types of cards that are missing just happen to have been what could counter rogue (early board clears and taunts)
you used to drop a tar creeper and completely kill their tempo.
This made me chuckle. "The problem is not that my favorite class is op right now, it's just that the other I classes are not op enough to compete. Just buff all of them and it will be fine."
Yeah that certainly sounds more reasonable than nerfing rogue XD
It does indeed.
The point is Rogue is probably gonna get a nerf now, i bet on Classic card, that will leave the class incredibly vulnerable for a long while.
Until they pump in new broken cards for it. Much like what happened in Druid.
The "floating balance" design policy has reached ridiculous extremes.
And the fact it is blindly applied to the Standard context only makes Wild broken as well.
At least one of Prep, Sap, Edwin or SS should have been HoFed. Until these cards remain untouched, Tempo Rogue will always be in the Meta.
Rastakhan's Rumble was literally a meta where every single class had a playable deck in the meta that could compete with a good amount of other meta decks.
3/4 classes being played is literally the worst meta possible (as seen in Gadgetzan), as is a meta where one class just completely outclasses everyone else (like in Karazhan)
I tried having fun once. It was awful.
My quick 2 point take of the meta is:
1) Rogue can do too many things in one turn, it's not their power level that bothers me, it's just how freaking long all the things they do take.
2) That card that creates a new 10 card deck for you has essentially ruined the fun of control matches. It goes from a skillful little ballet of attrition, to you not caring who wins anymore and just wanting the game to end. To the point where you are willing to just shoot yourself in the head and just do "whatever" so the agony ends. God forbid someone actually has a life they want to partake in the real world if you have any desire to play control.
academic espionage is technically more broken and thief rogue messes up the greedy control decks. when cue into rogue I hope it's not an espionage rogue if I'm playing control. (than elysiana I mean)