With all the hype around the recent announcements and with Ben Brode suggesting that they could rotate in cards from other sets to fill the place of rotated classic cards, I was curious what cards you think should be moved to classic. Here are my picks.
Neutrals:
Kel'thuzad: this guy is one of the coolest legendaries in the game who sadly didn't see that much play because he was slow and Rag and Boom were just better. Would he see play after rag rotates? Maybe not, but he's awesome and iconic and would be a great replacement.
Loatheb: In my opinion the second-best designed legendary in the game. Has a powerful one-turn effect that is very versatile, making him never an auto include but a great tech choice in many decks. I think he exemplifies Blizzard's current design philosophy for legendary minions.
Nerubian Egg: my initial choice for an azure Drake replacement was initially Sludge Belcher. However, after some thought I realized that one of the reasons Azure Drake was so played in standard was because it never had to contend with Belcher, the best taunt minion in the game. Belcher would see play in most deck if it was classic, ruining the point of rotation in the first place. Thus, I chose Egg, a cool card that sees play in a multitude of archetypes, but was never overused.
Class cards:
Mage: Duplicate. Duplicate was one of the more interesting secrets mage had in it's disposal. It still sees decent play in wild and is cool so I think it would be a good addition to classic. I don't play much mage, so you guys might have better suggestions.
Rogue: Tomb Pillager. Great utility in rogue. Saw a ton of play. Great in Nzoth. What's not to like? Alternate suggestion: Gang Up. Allows for a lot of cool combo play.
Warlock: Void Caller. Awesome card in demon decks that might make demonlock in standard viable once more. One issue is that it might keep Blizzard from printing more big, powerful demons like Malganis. So as an alternate suggestion: Imp Gang Boss. Another great warlock demon. Was powerful, but was never infuriating to me. Also a staple card in zoo.
Personally would like to see brann. an amazing card which just allows for so many combo's. Not necessarily an auto include but he just added so much to the game.
Yet another of these dumb thread : what's the point of a rotating system if you keep all the good cards ?
So, while it could be interesting to bring back some weak cards (likeDragon Consort, Spectral Knight, Bomb Lobber ....), but any card featured in a Tier 1-2 deck should NEVER ever come back (and certainly not Loatheb).
I think you display a certain lack of understanding of the point of rotating systems. Rotation, as explained by the devs, is not there to get rid of good cards. If that were true, than they wouldn't have massively power-creeped all the other expansions with Mean Streets. No, rotation is there so we don't see the same archetypes over and over again. Thus we had the rotation of ice lance and conceal, and of course it's a bad idea for anybody to suggest adding Reno to classic. Good cards are only a problem when they start seeing play in every deck, or every control or aggro deck, hence the movement of Rag and the nerf of Leper Gnome early on.
When I chose my cards, I tried to choose cards that would only see play in certain archetypes, cards that weren't objectively good in any deck or meta. Imp gang boss and Tomb Pillager I admit were probably bad choices. Hence the inclusion of Void Caller and Gang Up as well. I'm not sure if you've seen the wild meta much, but Loatheb doesn't see nearly as much play as you think. Would he see more play in standard? Maybe, but ultimately he's a card that would be cut out of most decks.
Your suggestion of including bad cards in the classic set is beyond stupid. I'm not sure what you were going for there, spicing up the random card pool...? I understand maybe not moving any card into classic, but if you read the topic, you'd know that Brode mentioned that as a possibility in the future. Hence the thread.
As for Dragon Consort, it's not a weak card. It's a card that is good but functions in a weak deck, so I think you might need to modify your definition of weak card as well.
For the time being, I think it would be best if no cards be rotated back into standard. Admittedly, I have been on the fence and even been on your side of the argument (Reno until I realized how much more fun highlander decks are in wild). Believe me as someone that loves Loetheb, he would be a neutral auto include card and that is the type of card Blizzard does not seem to want to bring back. My bet is blizzard is not done rotating cards out of the classic set.
blizzard mind set= profit mind= pay to win player mind set.
card appear in many deck mean they earn less profits. And pay to win player also loses power because f2p easily contest with them by open around 30 packs and craft some card.
they will keep complain until control is only viable deck in meta. Then they will play 30 legendary deck. Pay to w
Yet another of these dumb thread : what's the point of a rotating system if you keep all the good cards ?
So, while it could be interesting to bring back some weak cards (likeDragon Consort, Spectral Knight, Bomb Lobber ....), but any card featured in a Tier 1-2 deck should NEVER ever come back (and certainly not Loatheb).
I think you display a certain lack of understanding of the point of rotating systems. Rotation, as explained by the devs, is not there to get rid of good cards. If that were true, than they wouldn't have massively power-creeped all the other expansions with Mean Streets. No, rotation is there so we don't see the same archetypes over and over again. Thus we had the rotation of ice lance and conceal, and of course it's a bad idea for anybody to suggest adding Reno to classic. Good cards are only a problem when they start seeing play in every deck, or every control or aggro deck, hence the movement of Rag and the nerf of Leper Gnome early on.
When I chose my cards, I tried to choose cards that would only see play in certain archetypes, cards that weren't objectively good in any deck or meta. Imp gang boss and Tomb Pillager I admit were probably bad choices. Hence the inclusion of Void Caller and Gang Up as well. I'm not sure if you've seen the wild meta much, but Loatheb doesn't see nearly as much play as you think. Would he see more play in standard? Maybe, but ultimately he's a card that would be cut out of most decks.
Your suggestion of including bad cards in the classic set is beyond stupid. I'm not sure what you were going for there, spicing up the random card pool...? I understand maybe not moving any card into classic, but if you read the topic, you'd know that Brode mentioned that as a possibility in the future. Hence the thread.
As for Dragon Consort, it's not a weak card. It's a card that is good but functions in a weak deck, so I think you might need to modify your definition of weak card as well.
Thanks for posting though.
I think you are totally delusionnal : the principle of a rotating system is explicitly to get rid of meta-defining cards, and that's exactly what most of your suggestions were. Most of them are just huge powerhouse used in almost everything :
Loatheb was on Dr. Boom level of popularity maybe even more, featured in almost everything from Zoo to Control Warrior or Miracle Rogue (i've even seen him as a tech choice in Freeze Mage !). Voidcaller was another extremely ubiquitous card, featured in both Zoo AND Handlock/Renolock because of its extreme cheesyness, and Imp Gang Boss is almost on the same level. Duplicate was also very versatile, seen in both aggro/flood Mage and slower grindy ones. Tomb Pillager is even worse, as it fits almost every strategy.
Nerubian Egg was maybe a bit less versatile, but it did make Zoo a Tier 1-2 deck for years (and was also very potent in Shaman). It could really be a problem again with new deathrattle buildaround coming out.
None of those card deserve to come back : they all had more than their fair share of spotlight, and are still very competitive choices in Wild ! Why bring them back if they are still viable in another gamemode ?
So, while anything that defined the meta in its time should not come back (it would just recreate the same meta). On the other hand, bringing back weaker cards could be interesting (for example B. Brode mentionned Shatter) : _ those card could provide some basic options for budget players, _ provide some interesting tech choices, depending on the meta (can't remember how often i wished i could have a Bomb Lobber in the last 8 months) _ simply give underplayed cards/archetypes another chance, in a "softer" environment.
To conclude, bringing back cards that are too weak for wild in the classic set may have its merits, while your kind of suggestion would only turn Standard into Wild 0.5.
And why are you even mentionning MSoG ? This extension had to be filled with stronger cards because it did not coincide with a rotation. Since the Standard cardpool has never been that large, those new cards had to be very strong to make an impact.
However, the Old Gods did not have this problem, and could feature much weaker cards...
Ok, now I understand. Your argument hinges on you not playing that much wild. See, wild isn't actually a broken mess, or rather, it isn't more of a broken mess than standard, because the exact same decks are at the top. Let's take a moment and check Tempostorm's statistics. At the moment, the three tier one decks at the moment are Renolock, Aggro Shaman, and Pirate Warrior. On the other hand, Secret Paladin and Patron Warrior are in the lower half of tier 2. That was why I mentioned MSoG. The argument that Standard is supposed to lower the power level of wild (which is what I think you ultimately mean when arguing that rotation was there to weed out meta-defining cards) is a bit weaker if the newest expansion defined the wild meta as well, pushing out its most popular decks up to that point. Standard isn't a 'softer' meta, and the real delusion is that anybody would cut out a precious card from their Dragon Priest or Renolock to play Bomb Lobber or Spectral Knight.
Similarly, your issue is that you were remembering the meta from before standard, rather than using the wild meta to judge these cards. Thus, you don't take into account the new cards introduced, as well as the cards that it would lose by being moved to classic without some other essential cars in wild. For example, Dr. Boom is being cut out of many lists because of N'zoth and because he's actually a bit slow for the current meta.
Loatheb is a card that I see rarely, even pre-gadgetzan. I only play him in my wild Renolock. In other decks, there are simply too many auto-includes for each certain class or deck that Loatheb unfortunately ends up being cut. In standard, he could hopefully be used as a common tech choice, like Harrison, but I have no doubt that he would be cut out of most lists.
Voidcaller, while seeing play pre-standard in zoo because of strong demons like Mal'Ganis would not be very good in standard zoo. Unless you consider pulling a free Flame Imp a good reason to play the card.
Duplicate I admit I don't remember too much. However, I don't see the card in many Renomage lists, have never seen it in Freeze (obviously) and don't remember seeing it in Tempo mage. I don't see it often. I chose it because it's fun and versatile, but the power level wouldn't ever make it an autoinclude.
Nerubian Egg is a card I did see a lot pre-Mean Streets, but it was often in combination with cards going in wild like Raptor and PO. I chose it because it's a card you can build decks around, but it doesn't push specific archetypes and it isn't an autoinclude in all or most decks, and will change with every expansion. For that reason it's actually one of my favorite cards and I think it is perfect for th constantly changing standard. As for future deathrattle builds, I don't think egg is strong enough that it would be broken with more synergy, and I think it would add an interesting element. But I don't know what they hav planned. The most dangerous potential use that I imagined for Egg was Unearthed Raptor, but that deck was never problematic, so I guess I have to wait and see if Blizzard could ever make Egg a broken card.
As for Imp Gang and Pillager, I thought I already stated those were bad choices, so I don't see why you still brought them up.
To answer your question about whether we should bring back cards that are already competitive in another game mode, my answer is this: A) define competitive, because most of the cards I mentioned don't really see a ton of play in wild, and B) Yes. They wouldn't see play in the other game mode if they weren't.
With all the hype around the recent announcements and with Ben Brode suggesting that they could rotate in cards from other sets to fill the place of rotated classic cards, I was curious what cards you think should be moved to classic. Here are my picks.
Neutrals:
Kel'thuzad: this guy is one of the coolest legendaries in the game who sadly didn't see that much play because he was slow and Rag and Boom were just better. Would he see play after rag rotates? Maybe not, but he's awesome and iconic and would be a great replacement.
Loatheb: In my opinion the second-best designed legendary in the game. Has a powerful one-turn effect that is very versatile, making him never an auto include but a great tech choice in many decks. I think he exemplifies Blizzard's current design philosophy for legendary minions.
Nerubian Egg: my initial choice for an azure Drake replacement was initially Sludge Belcher. However, after some thought I realized that one of the reasons Azure Drake was so played in standard was because it never had to contend with Belcher, the best taunt minion in the game. Belcher would see play in most deck if it was classic, ruining the point of rotation in the first place. Thus, I chose Egg, a cool card that sees play in a multitude of archetypes, but was never overused.
Class cards:
Mage: Duplicate. Duplicate was one of the more interesting secrets mage had in it's disposal. It still sees decent play in wild and is cool so I think it would be a good addition to classic. I don't play much mage, so you guys might have better suggestions.
Rogue: Tomb Pillager. Great utility in rogue. Saw a ton of play. Great in Nzoth. What's not to like? Alternate suggestion: Gang Up. Allows for a lot of cool combo play.
Warlock: Void Caller. Awesome card in demon decks that might make demonlock in standard viable once more. One issue is that it might keep Blizzard from printing more big, powerful demons like Malganis. So as an alternate suggestion: Imp Gang Boss. Another great warlock demon. Was powerful, but was never infuriating to me. Also a staple card in zoo.
What cards would you guys like to see?
Personally would like to see brann. an amazing card which just allows for so many combo's. Not necessarily an auto include but he just added so much to the game.
I would like to see Healbot back in the game
Deathlord and Sludge Belcher
Good riddance to Healbot and the notion of neutral heals in general.
Free to try and find a game, dealing cards for sorrow, cards for pain.
For Mage: Spellslinger or Ethereal Conjurer
For Rogue: Tinker's Sharpsword Oil or Unearthed Raptor (not Gang Up, ever - mill decks can rot in hell)
For Warlock: Imp Gang Boss or Fel Cannon
Neutral: Kel'Thuzad (hell yeah, bro! He's Kel'Thu-freaking-zad!), Sneed's Old Shredder and Arcane Nullifier X-21
Forgive me, friend. I have failed.
Mind Games and Lightwell, for what they do, they may better go, never to return. Maybe with some luck priest could receive 2 playable replacements.
Greatness, at any cost.
For the time being, I think it would be best if no cards be rotated back into standard. Admittedly, I have been on the fence and even been on your side of the argument (Reno until I realized how much more fun highlander decks are in wild). Believe me as someone that loves Loetheb, he would be a neutral auto include card and that is the type of card Blizzard does not seem to want to bring back. My bet is blizzard is not done rotating cards out of the classic set.
Well, I just read the post correctly. Forgo my previous post in this thread and here is my only suggestion:
Zombie Chow
Greatness, at any cost.
I think, only super-basic or tribe-enabling cards should move to classic set.
Warlock: Darkbomb
Mage: Duplicate
Rogue: Unearthed Raptor or unnerf Blade Flurry
Priest: Swap Vol'jin with Prophet Velen
Neutral: Mechwarper (with -1 health), Clockwork Gnome, Kezan Mystic, Bomb Lobber, Hobgoblin, Blackwing Corruptor
never happen
blizzard mind set= profit mind= pay to win player mind set.
card appear in many deck mean they earn less profits. And pay to win player also loses power because f2p easily contest with them by open around 30 packs and craft some card.
they will keep complain until control is only viable deck in meta. Then they will play 30 legendary deck. Pay to w
Ok, now I understand. Your argument hinges on you not playing that much wild. See, wild isn't actually a broken mess, or rather, it isn't more of a broken mess than standard, because the exact same decks are at the top. Let's take a moment and check Tempostorm's statistics. At the moment, the three tier one decks at the moment are Renolock, Aggro Shaman, and Pirate Warrior. On the other hand, Secret Paladin and Patron Warrior are in the lower half of tier 2. That was why I mentioned MSoG. The argument that Standard is supposed to lower the power level of wild (which is what I think you ultimately mean when arguing that rotation was there to weed out meta-defining cards) is a bit weaker if the newest expansion defined the wild meta as well, pushing out its most popular decks up to that point. Standard isn't a 'softer' meta, and the real delusion is that anybody would cut out a precious card from their Dragon Priest or Renolock to play Bomb Lobber or Spectral Knight.
Similarly, your issue is that you were remembering the meta from before standard, rather than using the wild meta to judge these cards. Thus, you don't take into account the new cards introduced, as well as the cards that it would lose by being moved to classic without some other essential cars in wild. For example, Dr. Boom is being cut out of many lists because of N'zoth and because he's actually a bit slow for the current meta.
Loatheb is a card that I see rarely, even pre-gadgetzan. I only play him in my wild Renolock. In other decks, there are simply too many auto-includes for each certain class or deck that Loatheb unfortunately ends up being cut. In standard, he could hopefully be used as a common tech choice, like Harrison, but I have no doubt that he would be cut out of most lists.
Voidcaller, while seeing play pre-standard in zoo because of strong demons like Mal'Ganis would not be very good in standard zoo. Unless you consider pulling a free Flame Imp a good reason to play the card.
Duplicate I admit I don't remember too much. However, I don't see the card in many Renomage lists, have never seen it in Freeze (obviously) and don't remember seeing it in Tempo mage. I don't see it often. I chose it because it's fun and versatile, but the power level wouldn't ever make it an autoinclude.
Nerubian Egg is a card I did see a lot pre-Mean Streets, but it was often in combination with cards going in wild like Raptor and PO. I chose it because it's a card you can build decks around, but it doesn't push specific archetypes and it isn't an autoinclude in all or most decks, and will change with every expansion. For that reason it's actually one of my favorite cards and I think it is perfect for th constantly changing standard. As for future deathrattle builds, I don't think egg is strong enough that it would be broken with more synergy, and I think it would add an interesting element. But I don't know what they hav planned. The most dangerous potential use that I imagined for Egg was Unearthed Raptor, but that deck was never problematic, so I guess I have to wait and see if Blizzard could ever make Egg a broken card.
As for Imp Gang and Pillager, I thought I already stated those were bad choices, so I don't see why you still brought them up.
To answer your question about whether we should bring back cards that are already competitive in another game mode, my answer is this: A) define competitive, because most of the cards I mentioned don't really see a ton of play in wild, and B) Yes. They wouldn't see play in the other game mode if they weren't.