This game will never be healthy as long curve stone exists 24/7. Paches would be balanced if you not created small-time bucaneer. To bad Blizzard had to make it OP as fuck.
I agree. I think it would be a much better game if OP 1 and 2 drops didn't exist. Of course they can't take those out now because decks like the paladin pump deck would be way too powerful then.
meta is healthier then ever, can't wait for 2017 rotation so reno goes out and there would be nothing but an aggro, then it would be even more healthy...kappa
Not at all bad matchups. This type of control warrior - more like classic control - is not a fatigue deck. It's meant to last up to a point then finish in a few turns. Reno? Alex --> Enraged Grommash. Pulling out their faceless manipulator OR Reno OR Leroy is also basically an instant win.
meta is healthier then ever, can't wait for 2017 rotation so reno goes out and there would be nothing but an aggro, then it would be even more healthy...kappa
Think the main thing a lot of people miss is aggro is a part of a healthy meta. Is it too strong right now? Maybe, but I can say I have had a lot of success playing a midrange dragon warrior with some solidbtaunts and have been ranking from 10-6 pretty quickly. I would prefer this rather than 10-15 minute control mirrors every match. Reno or CW mirrors require more skill, but I just don't have that much time to be honest. And aggro mirror matches do take skill as well which a lot of people disregard
Let's stay polite. I thought the Old Gods meta was balanced. But I agree, post-naxx face hunter broke the meta, as did Patron Warrior, and in beta Miracle Rogue. Other than that, top decks must exist, there's no way around that. All I'm judging on is whether a variety of other decks are viable as well in the meta; right now, I think we have that.
meta is healthier then ever, can't wait for 2017 rotation so reno goes out and there would be nothing but an aggro, then it would be even more healthy...kappa
Think the main thing a lot of people miss is aggro is a part of a healthy meta. Is it too strong right now? Maybe, but I can say I have had a lot of success playing a midrange dragon warrior with some solidbtaunts and have been ranking from 10-6 pretty quickly. I would prefer this rather than 10-15 minute control mirrors every match. Reno or CW mirrors require more skill, but I just don't have that much time to be honest. And aggro mirror matches do take skill as well which a lot of people disregard
I completely agree, spurries. Couldn't have said it better myself. I mostly play midrange and combo, but I agree aggro is necessary and not "cancerous".
This game will never be healthy as long curve stone exists 24/7. Paches would be balanced if you not created small-time bucaneer. To bad Blizzard had to make it OP as fuck.
I agree. I think it would be a much better game if OP 1 and 2 drops didn't exist. Of course they can't take those out now because decks like the paladin pump deck would be way too powerful then.
Okay, Jaegermeister. Curving out, or playing cards when they should be played is not a bad thing! It may be "braindead" in your opinion that people play cards each turn without much "thought." I agree Pirate Warrior is the Number 1 deck in the meta, but that doesn't make it broken! In Magic The Gathering, decks like Abzan Midrange have run the meta as the Number 1 deck. But the Magic Community understands that there must always be a "Best deck", there's no way around that.
Could you provide an alternative to the "Curvestone" you hate? Would you prefer control vs. control matchups that are just attrition?
This game will never be healthy as long curve stone exists 24/7. Paches would be balanced if you not created small-time bucaneer. To bad Blizzard had to make it OP as fuck.
I agree. I think it would be a much better game if OP 1 and 2 drops didn't exist. Of course they can't take those out now because decks like the paladin pump deck would be way too powerful then.
Okay, Jaegermeister. Curving out, or playing cards when they should be played is not a bad thing! It may be "braindead" in your opinion that people play cards each turn without much "thought." I agree Pirate Warrior is the Number 1 deck in the meta, but that doesn't make it broken! In Magic The Gathering, decks like Abzan Midrange have run the meta as the Number 1 deck. But the Magic Community understands that there must always be a "Best deck", there's no way around that.
Could you provide an alternative to the "Curvestone" you hate? Would you prefer control vs. control matchups that are just attrition?
Magic the gathering doesn't compare at all, their mana system is far different. The reason curve is the such a strong meta in hearthstone is because of the highly efficient early drops and the constant mana curve. And it's not a problem that the decks are good, the problem is there aren't complex powerful decks that high skill players could play and be rewarded for.
Grim patron in it's old heyday was a good example of a deck that rewards good play. renolock may be a good example of that. midrange shaman though very forgiving because of it's powerlevel is actually a good example of a deck that somewhat rewards skillful players (because it does in fact have a lot of control tools and decisions to make, it's just not obvious because the win rate is good even for a non-skillful player, It's just better for a skillful player).
In summary the midrangy/controlly version of shaman wasn't necessarily a problem, the problem is that there aren't more decks like it.
This game will never be healthy as long curve stone exists 24/7. Paches would be balanced if you not created small-time bucaneer. To bad Blizzard had to make it OP as fuck.
I agree. I think it would be a much better game if OP 1 and 2 drops didn't exist. Of course they can't take those out now because decks like the paladin pump deck would be way too powerful then.
Okay, Jaegermeister. Curving out, or playing cards when they should be played is not a bad thing! It may be "braindead" in your opinion that people play cards each turn without much "thought." I agree Pirate Warrior is the Number 1 deck in the meta, but that doesn't make it broken! In Magic The Gathering, decks like Abzan Midrange have run the meta as the Number 1 deck. But the Magic Community understands that there must always be a "Best deck", there's no way around that.
Could you provide an alternative to the "Curvestone" you hate? Would you prefer control vs. control matchups that are just attrition?
Magic the gathering doesn't compare at all, their mana system is far different. The reason curve is the such a strong meta in hearthstone is because of the highly efficient early drops and the constant mana curve. And it's not a problem that the decks are good, the problem is there aren't complex powerful decks that high skill players could play and be rewarded for.
Grim patron in it's old heyday was a good example of a deck that rewards good play. renolock may be a good example of that. midrange shaman though very forgiving because of it's powerlevel is actually a good example of a deck that somewhat rewards skillful players (because it does in fact have a lot of control tools and decisions to make, it's just not obvious because the win rate is good even for a non-skillful player, It's just better for a skillful player).
In summary the midrangy/controlly version of shaman wasn't necessarily a problem, the problem is that there aren't more decks like it.
And in that case I think this meta is the healthiest it's ever been. Yes, you can jam STB and summon Patches with Pirate Warrior repeatedly... but that deck isn't actually without solid counters in something like Control Warrior. You're also looking at Midrange Shaman-esque decks like Dragon Priest that really aren't as on-curve as people think now that you've got pretty diverse decisions when it comes to extracting value over tempo. Reno Priest and Mage aren't bad, with Reno Mage being a sleeper powerhouse according to vS stats on it. Miracle Rogue is top tier, and the Pirate package made it more forgiving but you're still going to struggle if you aren't already comfortable with how it operates. No one's figured out Goon (anything), but those decks actually look like a lot of fun in regards to having a lot of decisions with holding or playing the minions in your hand. Control Priest has half a dozen new tools and only needs a stable meta to start getting built properly. Control Paladin lists are actually still just great. As of now I think we actually have the most diversity in decks that reward skill, and part of it is the fact that a lot of Control lists got a boost from Aggro being good again. So if anything, having absurd 1s and 2s is something I think is ultimately a win for Control.
I'd also say that curve being important isn't the end of the world if you're forced to make solid decisions regarding it. Combo Druid always got laughed at for being luck-dependent and curve-centric, but part of the skill in that deck was actually sorting out efficient ways to utilize that curve. Secret Paladin didn't, and that was why that deck to this day always makes me a little salty seeing the power level of. However, Midrange Shaman and Dragon Priest have decisions that impact their adherence to curve, even while being decks that don't mind having a solid 1-2-3-4-5-6 to play if that's how the game pans out. Overload and holding Dragons makes every bit of difference in how those decks have nuances to keep things rewarding. Pirate Warrior ends up having weapon management, Aggro Shaman has Overload to worry about, Zoo Warlock has taps to fit in and discards to consider.
I mean the game isn't rocket science, but you can improve with literally every archetype in one way or another and we don't really have a deck that truly pilots itself to any sort of sizeable success rate.
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This game will never be healthy as long curve stone exists 24/7. Paches would be balanced if you not created small-time bucaneer. To bad Blizzard had to make it OP as fuck.
I agree. I think it would be a much better game if OP 1 and 2 drops didn't exist. Of course they can't take those out now because decks like the paladin pump deck would be way too powerful then.
Okay, Jaegermeister. Curving out, or playing cards when they should be played is not a bad thing! It may be "braindead" in your opinion that people play cards each turn without much "thought." I agree Pirate Warrior is the Number 1 deck in the meta, but that doesn't make it broken! In Magic The Gathering, decks like Abzan Midrange have run the meta as the Number 1 deck. But the Magic Community understands that there must always be a "Best deck", there's no way around that.
Could you provide an alternative to the "Curvestone" you hate? Would you prefer control vs. control matchups that are just attrition?
Magic the gathering doesn't compare at all, their mana system is far different. The reason curve is the such a strong meta in hearthstone is because of the highly efficient early drops and the constant mana curve. And it's not a problem that the decks are good, the problem is there aren't complex powerful decks that high skill players could play and be rewarded for.
Grim patron in it's old heyday was a good example of a deck that rewards good play. renolock may be a good example of that. midrange shaman though very forgiving because of it's powerlevel is actually a good example of a deck that somewhat rewards skillful players (because it does in fact have a lot of control tools and decisions to make, it's just not obvious because the win rate is good even for a non-skillful player, It's just better for a skillful player).
In summary the midrangy/controlly version of shaman wasn't necessarily a problem, the problem is that there aren't more decks like it.
But that's the thing! Most top-tier decks right now, with the exception of Pirate Warrior, require skill!
While arguing the meta is healthy, you imply that Brode and consort are doing a good job. Well in the profitable game depatrment you are probably right. Ingame requierments is another story. There rules the imbalance in numerous ways. Still between aggro and control, between spell and minion based gaming, the overrepresentation of burst/spell damage. If you are hooked to the game every wrong seem right.
The meta is not healthy , it is less unhealthy. Why? The game slowed al little bit down. The very fact in large part due to Reno and the Jade-bussiness. That is a good thing. It makes the game seem fresh, but still unhealthy.
The meta will become truly healthy and balanced with only on requirement: Every class should have their Tier 1 deck. Do you think that the unviability of Hunter and Paladin archetypes in this meta is healthy? Last season Paladin and Priest were nowhere to be found in competitive. It is the result of sloppy carddesign resulting in repulsively fast or OP-archetypes like zoolock, midrange shaman and the like. And every rotation this is happening.
Do you think that is healthy? Think before you write. Thank you.
Do you think the olympics should hand out 10 gold medals for each event as well? For something to be better than something, other things have to lose. This isn't a team game, it's 1v1 with matchups.
I think it's a reasonable expectation to have all classes be in The Tier 1-3 range. It is nonsense to ask for all classes to be in tier 1. I actually don't know why i have to explain this.
To the actual discussion, the meta is pretty healthy, but it still needs improvement. People on this website aren't complaining about a healthy vs unhealthy meta, they're complaining about getting destroyed by aggro decks, and they have been doing that since the beginning of the game, even though we have an insane control/combo deck right now that can hold it's own against almost any deck.
People complaining about a ton of aggro decks on ladder are just being stupid honestly. I would welcome a ladder full of aggro as it's one of the easiest types of decks to counter. When midrange shaman had a winning matchup versus almost the entire meta that was unhealthy, since it was difficult to counter effectively.
We have a set of top tier decks that have interesting matchups versus each other, and watching HS in competition is much more fun now because all the top decks have really crazy things they can do. Ladder is ladder, people play what they want. You're in a great spot to counter anything the game throws at you right now.
While arguing the meta is healthy, you imply that Brode and consort are doing a good job. Well in the profitable game depatrment you are probably right. Ingame requierments is another story. There rules the imbalance in numerous ways. Still between aggro and control, between spell and minion based gaming, the overrepresentation of burst/spell damage. If you are hooked to the game every wrong seem right.
The meta is not healthy , it is less unhealthy. Why? The game slowed al little bit down. The very fact in large part due to Reno and the Jade-bussiness. That is a good thing. It makes the game seem fresh, but still unhealthy.
The meta will become truly healthy and balanced with only on requirement: Every class should have their Tier 1 deck. Do you think that the unviability of Hunter and Paladin archetypes in this meta is healthy? Last season Paladin and Priest were nowhere to be found in competitive. It is the result of sloppy carddesign resulting in repulsively fast or OP-archetypes like zoolock, midrange shaman and the like. And every rotation this is happening.
Do you think that is healthy? Think before you write. Thank you.
Do you think the olympics should hand out 10 gold medals for each event as well? For something to be better than something, other things have to lose. This isn't a team game, it's 1v1 with matchups.
I think it's a reasonable expectation to have all classes be in The Tier 1-3 range. It is nonsense to ask for all classes to be in tier 1. I actually don't know why i have to explain this.
To the actual discussion, the meta is pretty healthy, but it still needs improvement. People on this website aren't complaining about a healthy vs unhealthy meta, they're complaining about getting destroyed by aggro decks, and they have been doing that since the beginning of the game, even though we have an insane control/combo deck right now that can hold it's own against almost any deck.
People complaining about a ton of aggro decks on ladder are just being stupid honestly. I would welcome a ladder full of aggro as it's one of the easiest types of decks to counter. When midrange shaman had a winning matchup versus almost the entire meta that was unhealthy, since it was difficult to counter effectively.
We have a set of top tier decks that have interesting matchups versus each other, and watching HS in competition is much more fun now because all the top decks have really crazy things they can do. Ladder is ladder, people play what they want. You're in a great spot to counter anything the game throws at you right now.
This! Thank you, Remster, this is exactly what I've been trying to say!
Paladin and Hunter are basically non existent and that's because of their bad basic and classic set of cards . Blizzard should really consider buffing some unplayable classic cards to increase diversity
The problem isn't in the classic set, those cards don't need buffs. What is pushing paladin and hunter out of the meta are the consequences of the new cards. Hunter is an aggro class, but currently it is being outclassed by others on that archetype, and unless they get some class pirates and glaivezooka this will remain this way until new cards are released. Paladin got no real game against insane control in the form of renolock and not enough tempo to stop pirates, or does, but not consistently... most importantly it can't do BOTH at the same time, your deck will lack in one of the ends.
I agree that the meta is healthy. And this is not a subjective point of view, it's not healthy because I like it, but because there isl balance between the 3 archetypes, combo included in control. It is virtually impossible to make every class viable/competitive/fun at a time, and even so we are pretty damn near it. I'm not playing paladin and hunter for fun, but I get quests for them and I am still able to complete them, they still beat the decks they should beat. Expecting all classes to be balanced is the same as expecting every card to be playable, it's unrealistic.
General problem of people posting here is the lack of conceptual thinking, no longterm evaluation, seeing only what is before them, writing things without ample consideration. It is the bases of developers leaving the game as it is. As long as peope are braindead happy, while thinking that they are very wise in what they write, who cares? The money keeps poring in after all....
You are arguing that for true balance every class should have a tier 1 deck. How realistic do you think that is? Do you think that even if hearthstone designers were geniuses with a lot more time between sets they'd be able to achieve that goal, and maintain that balance whenever they designed a new set? Seriously? I'm a long time magic player, there is no one time I can remember the colors were balanced, you always get combinations of them dominating a determined format... in the eternal formats it doesn't even change, it's blue crapping on every other color all the way. And wizards has been doing this for quite a while now, and magic is a slightly more serious game than HS.
Until last week my forum signature was still an old protest against blizz because shaman was an unplayable class. Sounds funny now, huh? Goes to show that things change, in terms of unplayable classes.
This meta is a congo line of Aggro Pirate/Jade Shaman and Aggro Pirate Warrior. 90% of my games are against those two classes.
It makes for a very...VERY BORING game.
meta is healthier then ever, can't wait for 2017 rotation so reno goes out and there would be nothing but an aggro, then it would be even more healthy...kappa
Not at all bad matchups. This type of control warrior - more like classic control - is not a fatigue deck. It's meant to last up to a point then finish in a few turns. Reno? Alex --> Enraged Grommash. Pulling out their faceless manipulator OR Reno OR Leroy is also basically an instant win.
Let's stay polite. I thought the Old Gods meta was balanced. But I agree, post-naxx face hunter broke the meta, as did Patron Warrior, and in beta Miracle Rogue. Other than that, top decks must exist, there's no way around that. All I'm judging on is whether a variety of other decks are viable as well in the meta; right now, I think we have that.
Paladin and Hunter as bad base set? Disagree..
The meta can be considered "healthy" in some ways, but pirate-aggro is definitely a cancer.
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The problem isn't in the classic set, those cards don't need buffs. What is pushing paladin and hunter out of the meta are the consequences of the new cards. Hunter is an aggro class, but currently it is being outclassed by others on that archetype, and unless they get some class pirates and glaivezooka this will remain this way until new cards are released. Paladin got no real game against insane control in the form of renolock and not enough tempo to stop pirates, or does, but not consistently... most importantly it can't do BOTH at the same time, your deck will lack in one of the ends.
I agree that the meta is healthy. And this is not a subjective point of view, it's not healthy because I like it, but because there isl balance between the 3 archetypes, combo included in control. It is virtually impossible to make every class viable/competitive/fun at a time, and even so we are pretty damn near it. I'm not playing paladin and hunter for fun, but I get quests for them and I am still able to complete them, they still beat the decks they should beat. Expecting all classes to be balanced is the same as expecting every card to be playable, it's unrealistic.
Until last week my forum signature was still an old protest against blizz because shaman was an unplayable class. Sounds funny now, huh? Goes to show that things change, in terms of unplayable classes.
To live is to suffer, to survive is to find meaning in the suffer!