Hearthpwn

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from Aether_lackey >>

Even if all you're proposing is true, don't you think the meta changed radically? It's not like it's already set in stone either.

I'd rather have an expansion change the meta than not. And if you're hoping for one day when all classes will be equally playable, don't hold your breath. Just be thankful priest is back after a long while and shaman isn't the top dog anymore. 

I'm not proposing anything except I'm just hoping one day with new expansion release each class will have new cards that fit class playstyle and have synergy with exising cards of that class. Instead of throwing bunch of powercreeps into the game, which is not really fit in anything but have to be included to all decks due to being powercreeps.

And from my point of view both Goons and Kabal themes are compete disaster. Goons theme don't work at all. Kabal theme works well only in Renolock (as expected actually, Renopriest is max Tier 2). Jade theme... It's playable in all their classes. Due to power level, not because real synergies or combos.

Quote from Haussenfuss >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from snipeninja1 >>

Broken means powerful and I dont think you play ladder because aggro shaman with pirates and jade is good.

 Broken means broken by wrong desing decisions.

Aggro Shaman is pretty average deck, I'd say Tier 2.

Aggro Shaman is the top deck in Standard. VS tracks the win-rate of the deck at 56%, more than 4% ahead of the second-best deck in the format. Your initial post also makes no sense - you list six classes as average or better, and complain that half (of nine?) classes are unplayable. According to the VS numbers, only two classes - Paladin and Hunter - have play-rates below 6%. They are also the only two classes lacking a deck with a win-rate of at least 49%. There is plenty of available data that you ought to look at when discussing the composition of the meta-game - unfortunately, none of it seems to support the claims which you have made.

Quote from LordBlumpkin >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from Aether_lackey >>

Even if all you're proposing is true, don't you think the meta changed radically? It's not like it's already set in stone either.

I'd rather have an expansion change the meta than not. And if you're hoping for one day when all classes will be equally playable, don't hold your breath. Just be thankful priest is back after a long while and shaman isn't the top dog anymore. 

I'm not proposing anything except I'm just hoping one day with new expansion release each class will have new cards that fit class playstyle and have synergy with exising cards of that class. Instead of throwing bunch of powercreeps into the game, which is not really fit in anything but have to be included to all decks due to being powercreeps.

And from my point of view both Goons and Kabal themes are compete disaster. Goons theme don't work at all. Kabal theme works well only in Renolock (as expected actually, Renopriest is max Tier 2). Jade theme... It's playable in all their classes. Due to power level, not because real synergies or combos.

 It can't really be a complete disaster if 2/3 of the Kabal classes work well with the theme. Grimy Goons was the only hit and miss. Even then, though the decks may not be highly competitive, they can make for some really fun gameplay. I haven't seen a Jade Rogue deck that I thought was impressive. I've mostly seen pirate/miracle decks.

It think OP's "analysis" is one of those feels over reals things, since most of the statements are objectively wrong (Jade and Pirates bad for Shaman? seriously, the Aggro variant is nuts).

Part of the issue I think stems from the idea that every archetype explored needs to be good or the set is a failure. Stealth and Burgle Rogue might not be anything to write home about, but that leaves us with Miracle/Jade/Pirate all appearing to be solid (not to mentio N'Zoth and C'Thun aren't going anywhere anytime soon). Taunt Warrior might still just be mediocre, but Pirate/Dragon/N'Zoth/C'Thun/Control are still great. Zoo and Tempo Mage haven't gone anywhere, even if the emphasis this set was for Reno builds. Priest getting a bump in every direction was just sorely needed for a class that's only briefly ever see a solid tier 2 standing. Druid is waffling a bit but it's had time at tier 1 in recent history so I'm not exactly stressed over it. Shaman is still just Shaman tier.

Hunter and Paladin seem like the only ones that look slightly alarming, mostly because they fit in really weirdly to the decks that are forming. That being said, I think people just haven't touched the Goons classes nearly as much in general so it's hard to even pinpoint that as a lack of tools and more a lack of testing. Given time we'all be able to ascertain the state of those classes a lot better, people haven't even gotten over the idea Pirate Warrior is only a tier 2 deck that's overperforming in an undeveloped meta.

I'd also be curious, what's the power creep people are referring to? Classes getting strong decks this expansion are more related to the fact those decks got strong tools and were verging on being at least tier 2 in the first place (see: Dragon Priest), not really to some insane boost in power level of the cards themselves. The only somewhat shockingly strong card is Patches, but that's not really power creeping anything considering nothing like it really exists in the game.

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from LordBlumpkin >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from Aether_lackey >>

Even if all you're proposing is true, don't you think the meta changed radically? It's not like it's already set in stone either.

I'd rather have an expansion change the meta than not. And if you're hoping for one day when all classes will be equally playable, don't hold your breath. Just be thankful priest is back after a long while and shaman isn't the top dog anymore. 

I'm not proposing anything except I'm just hoping one day with new expansion release each class will have new cards that fit class playstyle and have synergy with exising cards of that class. Instead of throwing bunch of powercreeps into the game, which is not really fit in anything but have to be included to all decks due to being powercreeps.

And from my point of view both Goons and Kabal themes are compete disaster. Goons theme don't work at all. Kabal theme works well only in Renolock (as expected actually, Renopriest is max Tier 2). Jade theme... It's playable in all their classes. Due to power level, not because real synergies or combos.

 It can't really be a complete disaster if 2/3 of the Kabal classes work well with the theme. Grimy Goons was the only hit and miss. Even then, though the decks may not be highly competitive, they can make for some really fun gameplay. I haven't seen a Jade Rogue deck that I thought was impressive. I've mostly seen pirate/miracle decks.

Ok, Kabal is not complete disaster.

 I'm not talking about fun gameplay. I mentioned that in the title: Standard Ranked = Competetive decks to play at Legend level. So please, don't say nonsense about 'Paladin is good' or 'Hunter has 2 good archetypes'.

Quote from ArgentumEmperio >>

 

Quote from ArgentumEmperio >>

Quote from 4wd >>

Quote from ArgentumEmperio >>

 ...

 I don't pretend to speak for Timmies or Johnnes. Let's say, Goon theme was made for Timmies, and Kabal was made for Johnnies. An issue that some cards they made are so strong that only decks that could include them could succeed in current meta.

For example, Patches and Small-Time Buccaneer. If you can fit them into your deck, your deck immediately becomes much stronger. Or Kazakus, same thing. Or Jade Golem cards.

From another side, if you can't fit these themes into your deck, your deck is not competitive anymore.

Except you're playing Dragon Priest, which got its powercreeps and don't care about other strong mechanics.

So from my Spike point of view Blizzard did it wrong with most of new themes. Instead of 8 classes in MSG we [Spikes] have 6 now.

 I don't intend to debate you on that particular point, even as someone who's a Johnny-Spike type of player so I essentially get to play with 9 classes and see great potential and great fun in all 9 of 'em... I most certainly can see how the outlook would look like right now.

I still think its a bit too early to make such grand statements as the one you did with this thread's title but I don't disagree with you that from the outlook... the Goons got the short end of the stick. Personally I think there'll be some kind of a Goon deck either in Warrior or Paladin where as Hunter will basically just include the most ambigious ones such as Rat Pack and Shaky Zipgunner but... that'll most likely still just play out as a normal midrange list.

Still, I think there's these decks that we haven't thought of yet with MSG and I can't wait until the end of let's say January since most folks will be busy leading up to Christmas so I think the most extensive of the experimentation and deckbuilding from the pure Spike-perspective will be seen mid-to-late January. But I think there's a certain amount of potential in the goons much for the reason I stated with Grook Fu Master. I mean, just a Thrallmar Farseer could easily become a 4/5 Windfury on turn 3 the question is of course at that point... is 'that' deck worth it?

I think we will simply have to wait and see. But yes I do agree with you that in the short term and the immediate reaction to MSG the Goons definitely have been underperforming even to the more inconsistent Highlander decks outside of the good ol' Highlander Warlock.

Hunter is shit atm. Return Call of the Wild to 8 mana, or put King Krush at 8 to make it usable in a buff deck. Give charge to Knuckles or something.