Hearthpwn

People: They rig it to keep everyone at 50% and you can't change it!

Also people: When you pay to have access to more heroes you win more!

...

I can understand people get frustrated when they have poor RNG and jump to conclusions.  The whole "They force a 50% winrate and even admitted it!" argument just baffles me though.  One guy said earlier 

"Where they literally said that they basically rig it to make it so you're either matched up with people with a higher skill or lower skill to keep the win rate at around 50%"

This is literally how any MMR system works.  If you are at 6k rating and the people you get matched against are less skilled than you, you are more likely to win and gain MMR.  If you get to 8k rating and the people you get matched against are higher skilled than you, you are more likely to lose...until you improve as a player.  You aren't being forced to stay at 8k or lower.  If you gave your account to a 12k player, they would absolutely climb past 8k, even though you couldn't.

Quote from MightyMaus >>

Quote from MyDude33 >>

 Buddy, you just don't understand what they mean. It's more about how they match you with people. Once you find where you're supposed to be in terms of your ranking then you will likely have a win rate close to 50% with some variance because the game mode has a lot of luck involved. This is because you will simply be matched with similarly skilled players ("Worthy Opponents"). 

My rank is around 6500. But if I was able to play players with a ranking of 2500 I guarantee my win rate would be 80% or higher and then taper off as my ranking rises and close in on the 50% mark. Simply by playing against people closer to my level. Not by some forced algorithm. 

 As a developer, I DO understand what it means. The Luck stat itself is literally rigging the game for or against you depending on how well you're doing. Then the pay to get 2 more choices increases your ability to get a better hero by 50%. It's not nefarious, It's not an insult to the game or anything sneaky. It's something they themselves have discussed and a norm in auto-battlers. I don't though, understand how you guys can't understand it.  

Paying to get a 50% chance to get a better hero increases your chance to win exponentially, which is rigging. Adding a luck stat to keep you at 50% is rigging. Even pushing you to play against people better or worse than you based on your w/l and rating is rigging. It's literally all forced algorithms. 

 You keep using the term 'rigging' and then conflating it with stuff like buying the battlepass to increase your odds of getting a good character. I think you are being disingenuous. You know very well that when people say 'rigging' what they mean is the game adjusting an RNG roll to favour an outcome, beyond what is displayed on screen to the players. This they do not do, either in arena, constructed or battlegrounds, yet throughout the game's history smooth brains have tried to suggest that they do. Let it go, deal with your losses and bad luck like a normal person.

Quote from MightyMaus >>

Quote from MyDude33 >>

 Buddy, you just don't understand what they mean. It's more about how they match you with people. Once you find where you're supposed to be in terms of your ranking then you will likely have a win rate close to 50% with some variance because the game mode has a lot of luck involved. This is because you will simply be matched with similarly skilled players ("Worthy Opponents"). 

My rank is around 6500. But if I was able to play players with a ranking of 2500 I guarantee my win rate would be 80% or higher and then taper off as my ranking rises and close in on the 50% mark. Simply by playing against people closer to my level. Not by some forced algorithm. 

 As a developer, I DO understand what it means. The Luck stat itself is literally rigging the game for or against you depending on how well you're doing. Then the pay to get 2 more choices increases your ability to get a better hero by 50%. It's not nefarious, It's not an insult to the game or anything sneaky. It's something they themselves have discussed and a norm in auto-battlers. I don't though, understand how you guys can't understand it.  

Paying to get a 50% chance to get a better hero increases your chance to win exponentially, which is rigging. Adding a luck stat to keep you at 50% is rigging. Even pushing you to play against people better or worse than you based on your w/l and rating is rigging. It's literally all forced algorithms. 

 Luck is luck. There is no rigging when it comes to that. It's like playing poker. Sometimes you get dealt the nuts and sometimes it seems like everyone else is getting dealt exactly the hand that beats you. It all evens out without the need for external factors if skill levels are comparable.

The extra heroes probably affects things more at lower ratings than higher ratings, but not nearly as much as you think. There are some heroes which are objectively good and bad, but a lot that depend on the player. For example, I do really well Aranna consistently even though she's supposedly at the bottom of the bottom.

I think it's more about getting to play heroes you actually enjoy versus the ones that win most. I just can't stand to play Hooktusk, Millhouse, Cthun, and some others and just want the extra choices so I can continue avoiding them like the plague. 

Quote from hpwnusername >>

 

P.S. I think current season is too highrolly, and that might show. We had that one before Quillboars were introduced when ppl went for double kali consistently. All in all, BG has been the better game mode during 2021, just enjoy the ride, it gets bumpy though :D

 I would agree with that. Although not as bad as it was earlier in the year where it was a rush to 5 and see who gets lucky. Not to mention the Diablo disaster. The current meta makes menagerie really weak because of all the high rolling which is my favorite way to play. It's still way better than it ever has been, but a bit less enjoyable for me.

Quote from MightyMaus >>

Quote from MyDude33 >>

 Buddy, you just don't understand what they mean. It's more about how they match you with people. Once you find where you're supposed to be in terms of your ranking then you will likely have a win rate close to 50% with some variance because the game mode has a lot of luck involved. This is because you will simply be matched with similarly skilled players ("Worthy Opponents"). 

My rank is around 6500. But if I was able to play players with a ranking of 2500 I guarantee my win rate would be 80% or higher and then taper off as my ranking rises and close in on the 50% mark. Simply by playing against people closer to my level. Not by some forced algorithm. 

 As a developer, I DO understand what it means. The Luck stat itself is literally rigging the game for or against you depending on how well you're doing. Then the pay to get 2 more choices increases your ability to get a better hero by 50%. It's not nefarious, It's not an insult to the game or anything sneaky. It's something they themselves have discussed and a norm in auto-battlers. I don't though, understand how you guys can't understand it.  

Paying to get a 50% chance to get a better hero increases your chance to win exponentially, which is rigging. Adding a luck stat to keep you at 50% is rigging. Even pushing you to play against people better or worse than you based on your w/l and rating is rigging. It's literally all forced algorithms. 

 I think you're not demonstrating properly the effect of having 4 rather than 2 choices.

You move from the average "best" hero in a 2 choice being the hero at the 67th percentile, to the hero at the 80th percentile.  You go from an expected best pick being about the 23rd best hero to the 14th best hero.  About 9 ranks better.  That's good, but it's not really game-breaking.

In terms of not getting a very bad hero, you go from a 25% chance of two heroes in the bottom half of the distribution, down to 6.25%, which is really noticeable.  You'll very rarely get screwed with the pass (which is really low gold cost, too).

However, let's look at the chance of getting a hero in the top 10% of heroes (that is, the top 7).  For a 2-pick, you'll have a 19% chance (1 - [0.9 ^ 2]), so about 1 in 5 games you'll get a top-7 hero.  For a 4-pick, this is about a 34% chance (1 - [0.9 ^ 4]).  Once in every 3 games.  Noticable, but not horrifying, and the gold cost is pretty easy for anyone who plays even a little.

There's real Pay-To-Win issues in some games.  There are major abuse issues at Blizzard.  Battlegrounds is not a game toxic with P2W.

Battlegrounds has no real rigging (some folks just don't understand how Elo and MMR work).  There is real rigging in loot boxes/packs--things that actually cost people money.

This thread is the most whiny distraction I've ever seen.

Its so blatantly rigged it blows my mind. Playing 2 games as the panda hero. It consistently offers the worst hero powers in the game such as Edvins, Cariel, Kitty and Nozdormu. No way that shit is random. Its scripted. 

Extremely rare to get Reno for example on that hero. 

So Panda is scripted in disguise of luve rng... so BGs are now pro wrestling? 

Also - Edwin ability is fine on a correct turn, Cariel is still a +3/+3 or +5/+5 buff, kitty happens and I actually got minions out of picking it on correct timing, and Noz is 1 gold.

Shortly, Panda actually requires skills and understanding it's high risk high reward, but... keep whining. 

P.S. I actually hope they disable Reno on Panda. 

Quote from user-18143276 >>

Its so blatantly rigged it blows my mind. Playing 2 games as the panda hero. It consistently offers the worst hero powers in the game such as Edvins, Cariel, Kitty and Nozdormu. No way that shit is random. Its scripted. 

Extremely rare to get Reno for example on that hero. 

 

 If it's scripted you should know what you will get and can plan accordingly.  If you know what you are getting and can't take advantage, you need to improve.

If it's not scripted and you are getting poor results with a solid tier 2 hero, you need to improve.

Quote from user-18143276 >>

Its so blatantly rigged it blows my mind. Playing 2 games as the panda hero. It consistently offers the worst hero powers in the game such as Edvins, Cariel, Kitty and Nozdormu. No way that shit is random. Its scripted. 

Extremely rare to get Reno for example on that hero. 

 

 That was in some patch notes a while back. There is less chance you get some of the best hero powers. Otherwise the hero would just be broken.

I can confirm they changed those odds.  I play Panda a lot and got my first Reno hero power in over 2 months yesterday.

For those who don’t think this game is rigged I want to share with you a scenario and I ain’t good with maths but I’m pretty sure the odds of this happening are extremely unlikely. 

im in battlegrounds top 2. I have 40hp and second place has 10hp. 
I am dragon deck and although my minions are alll quite high damage I have 2 OP dragons that are like 200-200+ that will just win the game for me by default. But he has that tier 6 poison minion that gains taunt wind fury and divine shield and due to his deck build he would get all of those buffs. I have 0 taunts and I versed him 4 rounds in a row and 4 rounds in a row his poison windfury snipes both my high win condition cards. So hitting the correct 2/7 minions perfectly for 4 rounds straight is rare but it not that bad right?

Well remember when I said he also gets taunt. On that minion. That means if I attack first I could attack that taunt. Problem is he had another taunt. And every round even though I attacked first for 3/4 rounds with 50% chance of hitting that poison and removing his Devine shield with one of my weaker cards. Thus meaning he can no longer kill BOTH my win conditions but still yet I never attacked that taunt. 

anyways stuff like this happens A LOT and there is a skill element to battlegrounds knowing combos and strats and how to build a deck and be effective with gold. But there are things that happen which are completely luck based like not attacking first for like 6 rounds in a row when your first minion ramps up the rest of your minions like a beast deck (and yes with 7 minions on board) 

Quote from GAB >>

For those who don’t think this game is rigged I want to share with you a scenario and I ain’t good with maths but I’m pretty sure the odds of this happening are extremely unlikely. 

im in battlegrounds top 2. I have 40hp and second place has 10hp. 
I am dragon deck and although my minions are alll quite high damage I have 2 OP dragons that are like 200-200+ that will just win the game for me by default. But he has that tier 6 poison minion that gains taunt wind fury and divine shield and due to his deck build he would get all of those buffs. I have 0 taunts and I versed him 4 rounds in a row and 4 rounds in a row his poison windfury snipes both my high win condition cards. So hitting the correct 2/7 minions perfectly for 4 rounds straight is rare but it not that bad right?

Well remember when I said he also gets taunt. On that minion. That means if I attack first I could attack that taunt. Problem is he had another taunt. And every round even though I attacked first for 3/4 rounds with 50% chance of hitting that poison and removing his Devine shield with one of my weaker cards. Thus meaning he can no longer kill BOTH my win conditions but still yet I never attacked that taunt. 

anyways stuff like this happens A LOT and there is a skill element to battlegrounds knowing combos and strats and how to build a deck and be effective with gold. But there are things that happen which are completely luck based like not attacking first for like 6 rounds in a row when your first minion ramps up the rest of your minions like a beast deck (and yes with 7 minions on board) 

 

Once there are only 3-4 players left, you might want to stop your scaling (or keep going with the most important scaling-providing units if you know for sure you can win), and replace scaling-providing minions (brann, nomi, kalec, peggy etc.) with combat / utility minions like Leeroy, Blaster, Selfless, Glowscale, Baron, Sunbacon,  Taunt givers, Nadina, 3/4 windfury etc.

In your situation it seems like a couple of buffed (6-7hp) and taunted Leeroys would be the way to go, plus a selfless and perhaps a baron and or a blaster (if the opponent starts with more shields than you). Or even just the 3/4 windfury to remove taunt from both your opponent taunts. Should you go second, his queen will attack into one of your leeroys trading 1 for 1 instead of 1 for 2 with your dragons. Also get queens yourself.

This is how you win games instead of getting 2nd place. It's called "all in".

If you know you have only two combat units and 5 garbage you have to start collecting tech way before there's only you and the opponent left, so that you're ready for the all-in.

I tied a 92% win percentage final fight and then conceded, because I had sold both my glowscales for a Leeroy and a Selfless and there was no way I could win without the two additional shields from the glowscales. My opponent was stronger. But that's how the game works, you give it your best shot, sometimes RNG doesn't go your way. But don't be quick in blaming RNG.

Can we agree that if you experience a 1/10000 scenario after playing 10000 games you've only proven that there is nothing preventing extreme cases from happening, only helping to prove that the game IS NOT rigged? Not saying that the game isn't, but mentioning a scenario that's already a lot more likely than your birth is pretty lame. If you believe that losing a 99% win means that the game is rigged, then I can tell you that basically every event in your life is rigged too... Unless it's just all god in the end? 

In my opinion the MMR part is the problem. Why is the MMR hidden? It happened to me to play against streamers so I could exactly see their MMR, I had 7.6k, they had 12k. If you win a few games you are paired with way higher MMR players. This is the biggest problem in my opinion. Make the MMR visible, and don't pair us with 3-4k higher players. And maybe give more points for top4 place.

Quote from Dakhrok >>

In my opinion the MMR part is the problem. Why is the MMR hidden? It happened to me to play against streamers so I could exactly see their MMR, I had 7.6k, they had 12k. If you win a few games you are paired with way higher MMR players. This is the biggest problem in my opinion. Make the MMR visible, and don't pair us with 3-4k higher players. And maybe give more points for top4 place.

 I think Kripp has addressed this before. Above 7.5k or so there just are not that many players so that's why you get matched with much higher rated players.

Quote from GAB >>

For those who don’t think this game is rigged I want to share with you a scenario and I ain’t good with maths but I’m pretty sure the odds of this happening are extremely unlikely. 

im in battlegrounds top 2. I have 40hp and second place has 10hp. 
I am dragon deck and although my minions are alll quite high damage I have 2 OP dragons that are like 200-200+ that will just win the game for me by default. But he has that tier 6 poison minion that gains taunt wind fury and divine shield and due to his deck build he would get all of those buffs. I have 0 taunts and I versed him 4 rounds in a row and 4 rounds in a row his poison windfury snipes both my high win condition cards. So hitting the correct 2/7 minions perfectly for 4 rounds straight is rare but it not that bad right?

Well remember when I said he also gets taunt. On that minion. That means if I attack first I could attack that taunt. Problem is he had another taunt. And every round even though I attacked first for 3/4 rounds with 50% chance of hitting that poison and removing his Devine shield with one of my weaker cards. Thus meaning he can no longer kill BOTH my win conditions but still yet I never attacked that taunt. 

anyways stuff like this happens A LOT and there is a skill element to battlegrounds knowing combos and strats and how to build a deck and be effective with gold. But there are things that happen which are completely luck based like not attacking first for like 6 rounds in a row when your first minion ramps up the rest of your minions like a beast deck (and yes with 7 minions on board) 

 

 If that's the worst you've seen then that's nothing. I've been screwed way worse than that and never once though it was rigged. You're just not used to games that have randomness in them and don't understand probabilities well. Try some poker and take a few really bad beats and then claim it's rigged lol. 

Word of advice to all the people on here claiming it’s rigged because they’re losing ‘unlikely’ scenarios…

Don’t ever play poker. Seeing as you obviously don’t understand variance and get upset at an online F2P auto battler… actually losing coin flips when there’s money on the line isn’t for you.

It’s incredible how people can think the game ‘sticks’ them at 6000 MMR and can’t see that maybe that’s just their skill level. Really… what’s more likely? That there simply are people better at the game than you? Or that blizzard has inexplicably programmed the system to specifically hate you as a person? 

Quote from MyDude33 >>

Quote from Dakhrok >>

In my opinion the MMR part is the problem. Why is the MMR hidden? It happened to me to play against streamers so I could exactly see their MMR, I had 7.6k, they had 12k. If you win a few games you are paired with way higher MMR players. This is the biggest problem in my opinion. Make the MMR visible, and don't pair us with 3-4k higher players. And maybe give more points for top4 place.

 I think Kripp has addressed this before. Above 7.5k or so there just are not that many players so that's why you get matched with much higher rated players.

On top of that, I’m pretty sure your rewards for winning in these lobbies are much greater than it would be if you’re playing against people with the same MMR as you.

Quote from Toribasher >>

Quote from Lorcen >>

 Wait, what?  In order for it to be rigged against you, it would need to be rigged FOR other players.  BGs are a zero-sum play mode.  If you're thinking "crap, those attacks sucked", your opponent is thinking "wow!  Those were some lucky attacks". 

No Battlegrounds is NOT rigged against me.

Battlegrounds is rigged to have shorter games or more excitement.

Yes, confirmation bias exists and like everyone else I remember when the RNG sucks for me and forget the times it worked in my favor.

I didn't think the game was rigged, but then saw too many statistically unlikely AI-precision attacks too often in too short a timespan.

Some sort of rigging is going on.  But it is not against anyone in particular.  It could just be there to cull opponents to shorten games --- we see how they like short games in standard and it somehow boosts revenue.

 

 >shorter games

My dude the reason i dont play battlegrounds is because games are too fucking long. How are you gonna talk about shorter games? If they wanted shorter games they could just shorten the ridiculous 90-120 second buy periods in the late game. 

As for "statistically unlikely attacks in a short timespan", what about all the times those happened IN YOUR FAVOR? You don't even think about those, because you dont get upset about them so they arent memorable. 

Quote from MightyMaus >>

Quote from Bengalaas >>

Definition of rigged (by Merriam-Webster)

1: manipulated or controlled by deceptive or dishonest means

What is deceptive or dishonest about having a matchmaking system that looks for the player with the closest rating to you? Or having RNG elements in the game? Or even allowing double the hero options for a price?

Nothing. Nothing is deceptive, nothing is dishonest, nothing is rigged, at least not by the common definition of the word.

 First off, it also means "arrange something to get the result they want or to give someone an unfair advantage." Don't have to mansplain what you think the definition is, but leave out the other half.

Secondly, you're saying forcing people to stay at around a 50% win rate isn't arranging the game to give someone an unfair advantage? You guys are getting so offended that someone is saying something THE DEVELOPERS OF THE GAME literally said at a blizzcon (THEY USED THE WORD RIGGED THEMSELVES "it is rigged in a way") because it has a negative connotation behind the word "rigging". But, that's simply how games like this work, it literally gives people an unfair advantage, or better put. You a disadvantage. Along with matching you with opponents that have a higher % of winning the game against you, or losing against you to keep you at that 50%. 

Again - 

1.  Luck % changes how much you find the cards that have synergy to your card. I.E. You have 2 beasts, cards that effect beasts, and beasts are less likely to be drawn at the tavern. 
2. If you're winning they place you against opponents that have a higher chance of beating you, if you're losing, they do the opposite. 
3. You can buy a pack that gives you 2 extra hero choices. Literally a 50% chance of getting better heroes than people who didn't pay.  Literally making the game in favor of those who pay. 

Is it wrong of them? No, it's a standard practice to keep any sort of decent pvp game like this even. It's not like normal chess where you could play against some guy with a rating of 800, and then next game will place you randomly against a guy with a rating of 2100 and you'd have no way to win. This would put a 3500 up against a 6000, and the 3500 has an even chance of winning. 

Is it dishonest? Not really aside from the fact that for some reason you people don't want to acknowledge that it's there. So obviously it's somehow deceptive in some way. But I think that's just a form of in-group biases based off of people thinking a game being rigged is an insult to their precious game. Which, their precious game can do no wrong, there's no possible way it's rigged.  

Do other auto-battlers do it? Yes, every one of them does it.

Does that make it not rigging? No, it is definitely a form of rigging whether you want to admit it or not as the game forces players to stay around 50% wins. If it wasn't every player would have the chance to be at 100% wins. But they don't,

 

Unlike in chess, rocket league, DOTA, CS:GO. Someone that's a pro at this game couldn't just make a new account and be 100% wins out of ~10/20 games.  Because the game would force them to lose. How is Forcing the outcome of a game to be against your favor not considered not "rigged, at least not by the common definition of the word"? 

 I am pretty shitty at this game and got 3 #1 wins and 3 more 2nd-4th when I was doing the BG quests the other week. Am I the guy that Blizzard is rigging the games for? 

Also, by your logic, Blizzard is also "forcing someone to win". How do they decide who they should force to win? And why do you think they're specifically targeting you?