The first major problem is the animation: I had exactly 6 seconds between turns after encountering a Leapfrogger build.
Secondly: Leapfrogger with Rats and Baron is broken: It seems to me that Rats go way bigger then it's supposed to? They getting to 200+? I don't understand the math behind that.
Let's assume the most lucky instance when you have gold parrot and gold baron
your parrot attacks first first proc hits frog: deathrattle triggers three times and buffs itself 3 times second proc hits frog as well: but now it has 4 deathrattles already and each of them will trigger 3 times so there's 12 extra buffs to go around. your frog is taunted and dies to enemy attack: whatever buffs it had are tripled and spread around then your reborn golden parrot attacks again and makes even more frogs.
The problem right now is, that the good minions are on turn 2 (frog) and on turn 3 (parrot and doomsayer), you dont need to force going to 5 or 6 to get good minions. The really feels bad moments are, when someone gets a doomsayer early on, the gold advantage is HUGE
Let's assume the most lucky instance when you have gold parrot and gold baron
your parrot attacks first first proc hits frog: deathrattle triggers three times and buffs itself 3 times second proc hits frog as well: but now it has 4 deathrattles already and each of them will trigger 3 times so there's 12 extra buffs to go around. your frog is taunted and dies to enemy attack: whatever buffs it had are tripled and spread around then your reborn golden parrot attacks again and makes even more frogs.
It's just a mess when it kicks off.
Oh, I don't deny that it's a mess when it gets going. Lots of frog DRs. Feels like a lot of setup that can take a while, though, even if frog is, for some reason, just TT2. Until you have all three with multiple goldens, it's a scam RNG comp - dead to buffs going wrong or wrong attacks, like any early beasts.
The problem right now is, that the good minions are on turn 2 (frog) and on turn 3 (parrot and doomsayer), you dont need to force going to 5 or 6 to get good minions. The really feels bad moments are, when someone gets a doomsayer early on, the gold advantage is HUGE
I'd almost argue that weaver early is another feelsbad moment - but that is in part because of doomsayer feeding it and the T5 urz'hul for later game. If Soul Devourer wasn't in then doomsayer wouldn't be as bad - still a lot of value, but a T5 doomsayer into double devourer is utterly crazy. Should not have given that card to a tribe which has tokens as a major theme, particularly early.
Nothing OP there! And yes, Animation sucks. Its pretty stuborn forcing it. Seeing lots of PPl (myself included) just die. And late Zap, is awesome counter- forces you to put 1/1 Poisones Dude in, or you just get wrecked. Everybody now plays a Zap if he can vs the Beast Comp and its just fine!
Just remove macaw and the issue is solved beasts still will be viable with the avenge give all beasts +1/+1 and token builds so that wont be an issue.
Without macaw, what do you see a topend beasts build being? The entire tribe's revolved around macaw since that and Goldrinn came in. I don't think that bird buddy is enough to make a token build good enough to compete. Macaw going would honestly be good, but you need some scaling - it'll end up like pirates otherwise, pretty much avoided like the plague.
Its strong when it works but you basically needs all the pieces to make it work. I play few games a day and I cant really say you're getting blown by it every game with beats or what's more important in the early game. Its very strong end game build but there is nothing wrong with that.
Just put leapfrogged to tier 3 at most. But I'm not even sure that's mandatory.
Unpopular opinion - it's not that overpowered, generally, though if it all comes together it's a very strong late game comp.
Feels like a bit of a unicorn build, if I'm honest, until the super late game. Without baron and at least one golden, you're going to just die to most midgame builds (not really enough stats without 4 DR procs from the parrot). If you can treble multiple minions that are in fierce competition and get a key T5, then of course you're going to have a strong build. Running a rat early turns it into a tossup, so you can't add that until later when you have baron and golden parrot. Very easy to just run out of targets for the buff to jump onto in the midgame and get smacked around, I find. Most beast builds die out before lategame, particularly if demons are in.
I'd also of the opinion that impatient doomsayer isn't the entire issue with demons, though it's strong. It's got a relatively narrow window of effectivess before you're switching over to less tokens and more big demons and getting zero value. You've got the immune demon at 4 being significantly easier and allowing for weaver ridiclousness with less consequences which feels like a big part of that, along with the huge scaling of urz'hul. Doomsayer does help propel you between the two modes, though, and increases odds of seeing the immune demon and urz'hul. But a nerf to TT4 would make it not around for long enough to be effective. Maybe up it to avenge (4).
I think you have some really good points here. When beasts are in a lobby most people will try to force them. But most players will die before they find all the pieces, especially Barron. Not sure I agree with you on Rat midgame though - it's won me a lot of fights even without Barron or Bird. I think the issue is that the player who gets all the pieces for the beast comp usually wins and there seems to be little to no counter play. I saw 2 double Zap videos on YT yesterday which seems like the only way to counter it but that just makes you so weak to everything else. When every player is trying to force a build it means that there's usually a balance issue.
You're spot on re Impatient Doomsayer. It has a very small window to be effective but in that small window, it is incredibly effective. Probably a little too good. The value it generates makes it very hard for other players to actually keep up mid game and with a hero like Galywix you can scale and speed level with next to no downside. Getting 2 free minions a turn in midgame is insane, that's a 2 - 6 gold boost and allows you to roll, scale and or fill your board if you need to. And then there are the triples - so many triples! Even though you wind up selling most of them it still gives you too much early access to higher tier minions. I had a game yesterday as Galakrond and got a doomsayer on t2 (hero power no buy t1, hp t2 into buy doomsayer). I lost one round immediately after while getting enough avenge fodder but then it was gg for everyone else. Easy game, easy life! And yes, you have to eventually sell doomsayer because you have to transition into end game but right now there is no better midgame option. It's so much stronger than anything else which is the issue I have with it.
Murlocs usually have bigger stats at the start of combat, so even against beasts with reborn they should live.
And then poison just stops the combo in its tracks
Until a Rat Pack pops and there's a whole new board of at least 50/50 rats. Beasts need a nerf ASAP
I'm quite sure making both normal hearthstone and battleground unplayable is done on purpose to increase mercenaries sells. As such I wouldn't expect any nerfs for the next month.
I reckon you’re on to something there. A boring meta in both standard and bg would be bad when they are trying to hype mercanaries. An outrageous and unbalanced Meta on the other hand……
He really isn’t on to something there. There’s no way they’d do something like this on purpose. They’d be more likely to force people to a completely different game entirely especially considering the negative reaction to the Mercenaries announcement.
Leapfrogger should be tier 6. Another option is the change of interaction, so he can give his deathrattle only to minions, who doesn't have it already.
How about leapfrogger gaining the word 'another'? Not convinced that would be enough, but would stop the stupid parrot only endings. I still think that the parrot probably should go, though. That and doomsayer to avenge(4). Leaves beasts weak, though - every strong beast build since parrot came in was parrot related.
You know what could be a good and long overdue fix drop Zapp down to Tier 5 he kinda sucks at t6 and would provide very needed leapfrog counter play (without baron leapfrogger is just worthless)
The first major problem is the animation: I had exactly 6 seconds between turns after encountering a Leapfrogger build.
Secondly: Leapfrogger with Rats and Baron is broken: It seems to me that Rats go way bigger then it's supposed to? They getting to 200+? I don't understand the math behind that.
Problem is with parrot and baron that the buff grows exponentially. That is why sometimes units get 1k+ stats.
Let's assume the most lucky instance when you have gold parrot and gold baron
your parrot attacks first
first proc hits frog: deathrattle triggers three times and buffs itself 3 times
second proc hits frog as well: but now it has 4 deathrattles already and each of them will trigger 3 times so there's 12 extra buffs to go around.
your frog is taunted and dies to enemy attack: whatever buffs it had are tripled and spread around
then your reborn golden parrot attacks again and makes even more frogs.
It's just a mess when it kicks off.
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
Only if you have George and you need a bad proc or 2 from the Macaw/snipe the Baron
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
The problem right now is, that the good minions are on turn 2 (frog) and on turn 3 (parrot and doomsayer), you dont need to force going to 5 or 6 to get good minions. The really feels bad moments are, when someone gets a doomsayer early on, the gold advantage is HUGE
Oh, I don't deny that it's a mess when it gets going. Lots of frog DRs. Feels like a lot of setup that can take a while, though, even if frog is, for some reason, just TT2. Until you have all three with multiple goldens, it's a scam RNG comp - dead to buffs going wrong or wrong attacks, like any early beasts.
I'd almost argue that weaver early is another feelsbad moment - but that is in part because of doomsayer feeding it and the T5 urz'hul for later game. If Soul Devourer wasn't in then doomsayer wouldn't be as bad - still a lot of value, but a T5 doomsayer into double devourer is utterly crazy. Should not have given that card to a tribe which has tokens as a major theme, particularly early.
Nothing OP there! And yes, Animation sucks.
Its pretty stuborn forcing it. Seeing lots of PPl (myself included) just die.
And late Zap, is awesome counter- forces you to put 1/1 Poisones Dude in, or you just get wrecked.
Everybody now plays a Zap if he can vs the Beast Comp and its just fine!
Just remove macaw and the issue is solved beasts still will be viable with the avenge give all beasts +1/+1 and token builds so that wont be an issue.
Without macaw, what do you see a topend beasts build being? The entire tribe's revolved around macaw since that and Goldrinn came in. I don't think that bird buddy is enough to make a token build good enough to compete. Macaw going would honestly be good, but you need some scaling - it'll end up like pirates otherwise, pretty much avoided like the plague.
Its strong when it works but you basically needs all the pieces to make it work. I play few games a day and I cant really say you're getting blown by it every game with beats or what's more important in the early game. Its very strong end game build but there is nothing wrong with that.
Just put leapfrogged to tier 3 at most. But I'm not even sure that's mandatory.
I think you have some really good points here. When beasts are in a lobby most people will try to force them. But most players will die before they find all the pieces, especially Barron. Not sure I agree with you on Rat midgame though - it's won me a lot of fights even without Barron or Bird. I think the issue is that the player who gets all the pieces for the beast comp usually wins and there seems to be little to no counter play. I saw 2 double Zap videos on YT yesterday which seems like the only way to counter it but that just makes you so weak to everything else. When every player is trying to force a build it means that there's usually a balance issue.
You're spot on re Impatient Doomsayer. It has a very small window to be effective but in that small window, it is incredibly effective. Probably a little too good. The value it generates makes it very hard for other players to actually keep up mid game and with a hero like Galywix you can scale and speed level with next to no downside. Getting 2 free minions a turn in midgame is insane, that's a 2 - 6 gold boost and allows you to roll, scale and or fill your board if you need to. And then there are the triples - so many triples! Even though you wind up selling most of them it still gives you too much early access to higher tier minions. I had a game yesterday as Galakrond and got a doomsayer on t2 (hero power no buy t1, hp t2 into buy doomsayer). I lost one round immediately after while getting enough avenge fodder but then it was gg for everyone else. Easy game, easy life! And yes, you have to eventually sell doomsayer because you have to transition into end game but right now there is no better midgame option. It's so much stronger than anything else which is the issue I have with it.
Missing lethal since June 2015.
He really isn’t on to something there. There’s no way they’d do something like this on purpose. They’d be more likely to force people to a completely different game entirely especially considering the negative reaction to the Mercenaries announcement.
Sadly, it truly just is incompetence and neglect.
Leapfrogger should be tier 6. Another option is the change of interaction, so he can give his deathrattle only to minions, who doesn't have it already.
How about leapfrogger gaining the word 'another'? Not convinced that would be enough, but would stop the stupid parrot only endings. I still think that the parrot probably should go, though. That and doomsayer to avenge(4). Leaves beasts weak, though - every strong beast build since parrot came in was parrot related.
You know what could be a good and long overdue fix drop Zapp down to Tier 5 he kinda sucks at t6 and would provide very needed leapfrog counter play (without baron leapfrogger is just worthless)
Had a monster demon army going. Got beat by a ln almost 6 million stat Parrot.
Is it time for Baron to go maybe? Or kill the frog.