Weaver and demons is still #1, I find; you have a weaker midgame but other than that demons are still strong early and strong late. Other than that the tribes are decently balanced, IMO.
Agree that the patch has seemingly balanced the tribes more. Every tribe in isolation now feels strong enough to win a lobby. Some stronger than others - the usual highrollers will always prevail - but there is something there for every tribe now.
The only build that does now really feel not viable is Menagerie. Even if you pick up an early Lightfang, just feels that pretty much all other tribe builds can outscale Menagerie builds and wreck them. Shame, but cant have everything i guess!
I hate the fact there's so much perma-scaling and buffs in the game now, it discourages replacing minions at all aside from desperate counterplay that happens when there are 3 players left.
There's nothing you can do when play good but don't hit core passive buffing minion on time.
Agree that the patch has seemingly balanced the tribes more. Every tribe in isolation now feels strong enough to win a lobby. Some stronger than others - the usual highrollers will always prevail - but there is something there for every tribe now.
The only build that does now really feel not viable is Menagerie. Even if you pick up an early Lightfang, just feels that pretty much all other tribe builds can outscale Menagerie builds and wreck them. Shame, but cant have everything i guess!
You can use an alternative scaling method though: Oiler and Gem Splitter work quite well, then with Aggam tier 5, usually these minions aren't hugely contested so you can definately build a divine shield based managerie if mechs or dragons and quilboars are in. The scaling is fine, you can get 20 or more+ stat points per turn quite soon-ish, then with amalgadons it can get very strong.
But I do agree with you, even though the meta has somewhat slowed down (except the classic highrolls) lightfang feels very slow. Perhaps they should get her to +3+3, or let her buff herself aswell. I don't know. Maybe move her to tier 4.
For me the biggest difference from before is that I'm now losing or winning by luck (and hero choices too) and / or skill rather than a few absurdly overpowered minions or combos that everybody is digging for.
I think the meta got way worse in a complicated way.
There are more ways to build, but no minions that stop the bleeding.
Bob can easily decide to kill you with just 1 or 2 trash Tavern rolls at 7, 8, 9 mana. You don't advance your board state, which for most tribes means buff every single turn. Then you get slaughtered 2 turns in a row.
You didn't make bad decisions, Bob just decided to crap all over you --- and he always tells you he's rooting for you when he takes a major shit on your game state.
And we are back again to a single discover whiff on rolling a triple can be fatal for a non-buff, non-synergy hero --- which often comes in the form of being offered the 1/1 poisonous + strongshelll scavager + something weird for your Tier 5 unit.
On the plus side, I suppose buff heroes matter again.
I'd add pirates to the bottom tier with menagerie, honestly. The idea with peggy, bootleggers and similar is nice, but just... doesn't scale fast enough in my experience. It's better now that the lord is back, but still just... weak when compared to demons, elementals, dragons, or similar, and such a weak midgame is fatal.
Also, I laugh at the idea that Grease bot is anything other than a prized T4 pick. Everyone goes for them if they see them.
Okay, can anyone tell me how murlocs even vaguely work? Double Honcho early gives you a few 2/7s or so that die to most boards of high attack scaling. Poison is so late that you're either top4 or dead by the time it's happening, and that's assuming SI:Sefin doesn't die early since no murlocs have taunt. Swole is about the only minion that can compete in terms of raw stats, and even that gets outscaled by most good builds by the time you're TT3.
Murlocs, menagerie, and pirates all feel like an automatic minus 80-100 rating, and it's not rare to get only offered heroes that are hyoperfocussed to those tribes. And when multiple 3rds get wiped out by one 6th, the entire mode feels abysmal to play.
Okay, can anyone tell me how murlocs even vaguely work? Double Honcho early gives you a few 2/7s or so that die to most boards of high attack scaling. Poison is so late that you're either top4 or dead by the time it's happening, and that's assuming SI:Sefin doesn't die early since no murlocs have taunt. Swole is about the only minion that can compete in terms of raw stats, and even that gets outscaled by most good builds by the time you're TT3.
Murlocs, menagerie, and pirates all feel like an automatic minus 80-100 rating, and it's not rare to get only offered heroes that are hyoperfocussed to those tribes. And when multiple 3rds get wiped out by one 6th, the entire mode feels abysmal to play.
Murlocs do work when you have the hero for them. The best by far is obviously flurgl when elementals and beasts are in, and this is important because you want to resell these tokens to get more murlocs. Swabby also kind of works without losing too much gold. Anything that gives you two sells is good.
The idea is to get at least a couple warleaders before moving on to tier 3 so you have enough attack to win some battles. Then you try to get poisonous but your murlocs are so strong by now that they barely even die, so you really need find argus or some token generation. Demons and plain replicating menace are good for it. They also can pop shields. Keep two flex slots for the end, you will need 1 for triple selfless and 1 for buffing or for brann if you're lucky, or baron for the last battle. Selfless also helps you get poison. Try to get two resells from tokens. Getting poisonous is hard without argus tho.
If someone highrolls mechs or dragons early you will be obliterated, there's no way around it. Murlocs might also work with Gallywix but I haven't had good success with it, I'd rather try playing elementals with him if possible. With the Brann hero I also haven't had good luck with murlocs, but whenever I get offered Flurgl and there are at least two tribes with early double sells it should be a very, very easy top 4 if not win.
The problem might also be your higher rating, I can only play 20-30 games per week now so I'm still around 6.3k and this strategy still works.
Honestly I stopped caring about rating, I insta concede if I get a pool of bad heroes rather then waste one of the 3-4 games I can play every day. I play to have fun after 10 hours of work, not to get angry because my best pick was Toki. I'd rather take the -80 or whatever than spend 15 minutes getting frustrated.
Okay, can anyone tell me how murlocs even vaguely work? Double Honcho early gives you a few 2/7s or so that die to most boards of high attack scaling. Poison is so late that you're either top4 or dead by the time it's happening, and that's assuming SI:Sefin doesn't die early since no murlocs have taunt. Swole is about the only minion that can compete in terms of raw stats, and even that gets outscaled by most good builds by the time you're TT3.
Murlocs, menagerie, and pirates all feel like an automatic minus 80-100 rating, and it's not rare to get only offered heroes that are hyoperfocussed to those tribes. And when multiple 3rds get wiped out by one 6th, the entire mode feels abysmal to play.
Murlocs do work when you have the hero for them. The best by far is obviously flurgl when elementals and beasts are in, and this is important because you want to resell these tokens to get more murlocs. Swabby also kind of works without losing too much gold. Anything that gives you two sells is good.
The idea is to get at least a couple warleaders before moving on to tier 3 so you have enough attack to win some battles. Then you try to get poisonous but your murlocs are so strong by now that they barely even die, so you really need find argus or some token generation. Demons and plain replicating menace are good for it. They also can pop shields. Keep two flex slots for the end, you will need 1 for triple selfless and 1 for buffing or for brann if you're lucky, or baron for the last battle. Selfless also helps you get poison. Try to get two resells from tokens. Getting poisonous is hard without argus tho.
If someone highrolls mechs or dragons early you will be obliterated, there's no way around it. Murlocs might also work with Gallywix but I haven't had good success with it, I'd rather try playing elementals with him if possible. With the Brann hero I also haven't had good luck with murlocs, but whenever I get offered Flurgl and there are at least two tribes with early double sells it should be a very, very easy top 4 if not win.
The problem might also be your higher rating, I can only play 20-30 games per week now so I'm still around 6.3k and this strategy still works.
Honestly I stopped caring about rating, I insta concede if I get a pool of bad heroes rather then waste one of the 3-4 games I can play every day. I play to have fun after 10 hours of work, not to get angry because my best pick was Toki. I'd rather take the -80 or whatever than spend 15 minutes getting frustrated.
Hmm, thanks, I'll have to try that. So sticking at 2 for longer to get more warleaders and honchos, focussing on the tokens, basically?
I'm certainly not higher rating - bouncing between 5.6 and 5.9k at the moment. I get going and then a few 6ths and I'm 200 rating down :)
I just queue to try and do highroll or cheese setup (like nzoth ghoul bombs)
Regular match is just autopilot to tier 3 then desperately finding a tribe and scaling unit from tier 4, if you whiff first tier 5/6 discover it's almost always game over.
I just queue to try and do highroll or cheese setup (like nzoth ghoul bombs)
Regular match is just autopilot to tier 3 then desperately finding a tribe and scaling unit from tier 4, if you whiff first tier 5/6 discover it's almost always game over.
It isn't very good right now. Kinda of boring and your decisions aren't mattering much.
Here are the changes I would make (some might say it would be the Cleave Meta):
1. Grease Bot to Tier 5.
2. Holy Meckerel and Foe Reaper 4000 switch tiers. (Mech builds rarely use For Reaper currently, but use Mecheral heavily. Menagerie likes cleaves, and could use a For Reaper if they got it earlier. Plus, it should be very difficult to get two Mecherals).
3. Monstrous Macaw and Cave Hydra switch tiers. (Beast builds tend to use both Hydra and Macaw, but they normally go for golden Macaw and not golden Hydra so this is an overall slight nerf to Beasts. Buff for Menagerie.)
4. Wrath Weaver now deals 2 damage to your hero when it triggers. (Slight nerf to Demons.)
5. Flurgl's Hero Power is changed to "Passive: After you sell a non-Murloc minion, add a random Murloc to Bob's Tavern." (This nerf to "the Murloc Hero" would represent a slight nerf to Murlocs overall, without changing any of the Murlocs themselves.)
6. Quillboar Rework — Razorfen Geomancer is removed from the game. The following are now -1 Attack and available one tier sooner: Prophet of the Boar, Bonker, Bristleback Knight. The following are now -1/-1 and available one tier sooner: Tough Tusk, Bristleback Brute. Sun-Bacon Relaxer is now a 1/3. (The retier for Bristleback Knight is a buff for non-Aggem Menagerie.)
7. Pirate Rework — Scallywag buffed to 3/1. Deck Swabbie buffed to 2/3. The following are now -1/-1 and available one tier sooner: Salty Looter, Goldgrubber. The following are now +1/+2 and available one tier later: Yo-Ho-Ogre, Southsea Strongarm. (The retier for Goldgrubber is a buff for Menagerie, and you don't really want Southsea Strongarm offered until you have max Gold anyway.)
8. Menagerie Cup now has 3/3 stats. Menagerie Jug now has 5/5 stats.
Flurgl's proposed nerf would completely kill the hero. With the exception of the first 3-4 rounds you normally don't buy any non-Murlocs at all. Buffs to Menagerie Cup & Jug seem irrelevant. These are minions you buy, play and sell immediately. I agree 100% on Holy Meckerel though, this should be t6 all the way
Mecharel should not be able to proc off of another Mecharel. Only golden one should be able to do it so you aren't completely discouraged from trippling it.
Mecharel should not be able to proc off of another Mecharel. Only golden one should be able to do it so you aren't completely discouraged from trippling it.
Although it would be a totally different card, I would like to see "Whenever another friendly Golden minion loses Divine Shield, gain +2/+1 and Divine Shield." This would make the base form weaker, but it'd give Mechs incentive to Golden many cards which they have low incentive to Golden currently.
Thing is, a minion like that could probably be Tier 4 without much problem.
There's something bad about a meta that if you get even a little bit unlucky it's over. I understand a bit why they feel the need to make every hero and class more and more powerful, but they are skating a bad line.
It kind of reminds me of arena, it was great before when you could draft badly but still make the most out of a bad situation, that is long past as the bucket system ensures everyone has a constructed level deck.
Not quite the same situation, but I doubt we'll see battlegrounds go the opposite way, it will probably get progressively worse. There's a lot of lines that are pointless to go down because they get out scaled early.
There's something bad about a meta that if you get even a little bit unlucky it's over. I understand a bit why they feel the need to make every hero and class more and more powerful, but they are skating a bad line.
It kind of reminds me of arena, it was great before when you could draft badly but still make the most out of a bad situation, that is long past as the bucket system ensures everyone has a constructed level deck.
Not quite the same situation, but I doubt we'll see battlegrounds go the opposite way, it will probably get progressively worse. There's a lot of lines that are pointless to go down because they get out scaled early.
True, it often feels like the game is decided very early, purely by RNG. If you don't have any power house by turn 7, while other players do, you're done, because they will grow from now on (every single turn), and you will fall behind more and more.
It kind of reminds me of arena, it was great before when you could draft badly but still make the most out of a bad situation, that is long past as the bucket system ensures everyone has a constructed level deck.
There's no longer a bucket system in Arena though. They removed that like 2 years ago.
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True, it often feels like the game is decided very early, purely by RNG. If you don't have any power house by turn 7, while other players do, you're done, because they will grow from now on (every single turn), and you will fall behind more and more.
This. If Bob decides to suicide you by offering you 2 unstable ghouls and 2 undesirable Tier 1 units on 5 mana or 6 mana, you probably are doomed.
This is why Ysera and Flurgal, who are guaranteed synergy units and therefore inevitable triples are #1 and #2 heroes.
The could fix this by offering 3 free refreshes every turn (and deleting idiot Millhouse Manastorm who shouldn't be a hero).
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Weaver and demons is still #1, I find; you have a weaker midgame but other than that demons are still strong early and strong late. Other than that the tribes are decently balanced, IMO.
Same damn crap, Beasts and Demons...
Great art can never be created without great suffering.
Agree that the patch has seemingly balanced the tribes more. Every tribe in isolation now feels strong enough to win a lobby. Some stronger than others - the usual highrollers will always prevail - but there is something there for every tribe now.
The only build that does now really feel not viable is Menagerie. Even if you pick up an early Lightfang, just feels that pretty much all other tribe builds can outscale Menagerie builds and wreck them. Shame, but cant have everything i guess!
My magic will tear you......oh.
I hate the fact there's so much perma-scaling and buffs in the game now, it discourages replacing minions at all aside from desperate counterplay that happens when there are 3 players left.
There's nothing you can do when play good but don't hit core passive buffing minion on time.
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
You can use an alternative scaling method though: Oiler and Gem Splitter work quite well, then with Aggam tier 5, usually these minions aren't hugely contested so you can definately build a divine shield based managerie if mechs or dragons and quilboars are in. The scaling is fine, you can get 20 or more+ stat points per turn quite soon-ish, then with amalgadons it can get very strong.
But I do agree with you, even though the meta has somewhat slowed down (except the classic highrolls) lightfang feels very slow. Perhaps they should get her to +3+3, or let her buff herself aswell. I don't know. Maybe move her to tier 4.
For me the biggest difference from before is that I'm now losing or winning by luck (and hero choices too) and / or skill rather than a few absurdly overpowered minions or combos that everybody is digging for.
My comments refer mostly to the wild format.
I think the meta got way worse in a complicated way.
There are more ways to build, but no minions that stop the bleeding.
Bob can easily decide to kill you with just 1 or 2 trash Tavern rolls at 7, 8, 9 mana. You don't advance your board state, which for most tribes means buff every single turn. Then you get slaughtered 2 turns in a row.
You didn't make bad decisions, Bob just decided to crap all over you --- and he always tells you he's rooting for you when he takes a major shit on your game state.
And we are back again to a single discover whiff on rolling a triple can be fatal for a non-buff, non-synergy hero --- which often comes in the form of being offered the 1/1 poisonous + strongshelll scavager + something weird for your Tier 5 unit.
On the plus side, I suppose buff heroes matter again.
I'd add pirates to the bottom tier with menagerie, honestly. The idea with peggy, bootleggers and similar is nice, but just... doesn't scale fast enough in my experience. It's better now that the lord is back, but still just... weak when compared to demons, elementals, dragons, or similar, and such a weak midgame is fatal.
Also, I laugh at the idea that Grease bot is anything other than a prized T4 pick. Everyone goes for them if they see them.
Okay, can anyone tell me how murlocs even vaguely work? Double Honcho early gives you a few 2/7s or so that die to most boards of high attack scaling. Poison is so late that you're either top4 or dead by the time it's happening, and that's assuming SI:Sefin doesn't die early since no murlocs have taunt. Swole is about the only minion that can compete in terms of raw stats, and even that gets outscaled by most good builds by the time you're TT3.
Murlocs, menagerie, and pirates all feel like an automatic minus 80-100 rating, and it's not rare to get only offered heroes that are hyoperfocussed to those tribes. And when multiple 3rds get wiped out by one 6th, the entire mode feels abysmal to play.
Murlocs do work when you have the hero for them. The best by far is obviously flurgl when elementals and beasts are in, and this is important because you want to resell these tokens to get more murlocs. Swabby also kind of works without losing too much gold. Anything that gives you two sells is good.
The idea is to get at least a couple warleaders before moving on to tier 3 so you have enough attack to win some battles. Then you try to get poisonous but your murlocs are so strong by now that they barely even die, so you really need find argus or some token generation. Demons and plain replicating menace are good for it. They also can pop shields. Keep two flex slots for the end, you will need 1 for triple selfless and 1 for buffing or for brann if you're lucky, or baron for the last battle. Selfless also helps you get poison. Try to get two resells from tokens. Getting poisonous is hard without argus tho.
If someone highrolls mechs or dragons early you will be obliterated, there's no way around it. Murlocs might also work with Gallywix but I haven't had good success with it, I'd rather try playing elementals with him if possible. With the Brann hero I also haven't had good luck with murlocs, but whenever I get offered Flurgl and there are at least two tribes with early double sells it should be a very, very easy top 4 if not win.
The problem might also be your higher rating, I can only play 20-30 games per week now so I'm still around 6.3k and this strategy still works.
Honestly I stopped caring about rating, I insta concede if I get a pool of bad heroes rather then waste one of the 3-4 games I can play every day. I play to have fun after 10 hours of work, not to get angry because my best pick was Toki. I'd rather take the -80 or whatever than spend 15 minutes getting frustrated.
My comments refer mostly to the wild format.
Hmm, thanks, I'll have to try that. So sticking at 2 for longer to get more warleaders and honchos, focussing on the tokens, basically?
I'm certainly not higher rating - bouncing between 5.6 and 5.9k at the moment. I get going and then a few 6ths and I'm 200 rating down :)
established meta is the worst
I just queue to try and do highroll or cheese setup (like nzoth ghoul bombs)
Regular match is just autopilot to tier 3 then desperately finding a tribe and scaling unit from tier 4, if you whiff first tier 5/6 discover it's almost always game over.
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
It isn't very good right now. Kinda of boring and your decisions aren't mattering much.
Tavern offerings matter far more than strategy.
I agree completely with HSReplay...
Very overpowered: Mech
Mildly overpowered: Beasts, Demons, Murlocs
Balance is just right: Elementals
Mildly underpowered: Quillboar, Pirates
Very underpowered: Menagerie
Here are the changes I would make (some might say it would be the Cleave Meta):
1. Grease Bot to Tier 5.
2. Holy Meckerel and Foe Reaper 4000 switch tiers. (Mech builds rarely use For Reaper currently, but use Mecheral heavily. Menagerie likes cleaves, and could use a For Reaper if they got it earlier. Plus, it should be very difficult to get two Mecherals).
3. Monstrous Macaw and Cave Hydra switch tiers. (Beast builds tend to use both Hydra and Macaw, but they normally go for golden Macaw and not golden Hydra so this is an overall slight nerf to Beasts. Buff for Menagerie.)
4. Wrath Weaver now deals 2 damage to your hero when it triggers. (Slight nerf to Demons.)
5. Flurgl's Hero Power is changed to "Passive: After you sell a non-Murloc minion, add a random Murloc to Bob's Tavern." (This nerf to "the Murloc Hero" would represent a slight nerf to Murlocs overall, without changing any of the Murlocs themselves.)
6. Quillboar Rework — Razorfen Geomancer is removed from the game. The following are now -1 Attack and available one tier sooner: Prophet of the Boar, Bonker, Bristleback Knight. The following are now -1/-1 and available one tier sooner: Tough Tusk, Bristleback Brute. Sun-Bacon Relaxer is now a 1/3. (The retier for Bristleback Knight is a buff for non-Aggem Menagerie.)
7. Pirate Rework — Scallywag buffed to 3/1. Deck Swabbie buffed to 2/3. The following are now -1/-1 and available one tier sooner: Salty Looter, Goldgrubber. The following are now +1/+2 and available one tier later: Yo-Ho-Ogre, Southsea Strongarm. (The retier for Goldgrubber is a buff for Menagerie, and you don't really want Southsea Strongarm offered until you have max Gold anyway.)
8. Menagerie Cup now has 3/3 stats. Menagerie Jug now has 5/5 stats.
Flurgl's proposed nerf would completely kill the hero. With the exception of the first 3-4 rounds you normally don't buy any non-Murlocs at all. Buffs to Menagerie Cup & Jug seem irrelevant. These are minions you buy, play and sell immediately. I agree 100% on Holy Meckerel though, this should be t6 all the way
Mecharel should not be able to proc off of another Mecharel. Only golden one should be able to do it so you aren't completely discouraged from trippling it.
Piloted Shredder, Knife Juggler, Mad Scientist, Dr. Boom
Need to be removed from this game
Although it would be a totally different card, I would like to see "Whenever another friendly Golden minion loses Divine Shield, gain +2/+1 and Divine Shield." This would make the base form weaker, but it'd give Mechs incentive to Golden many cards which they have low incentive to Golden currently.
Thing is, a minion like that could probably be Tier 4 without much problem.
There's something bad about a meta that if you get even a little bit unlucky it's over. I understand a bit why they feel the need to make every hero and class more and more powerful, but they are skating a bad line.
It kind of reminds me of arena, it was great before when you could draft badly but still make the most out of a bad situation, that is long past as the bucket system ensures everyone has a constructed level deck.
Not quite the same situation, but I doubt we'll see battlegrounds go the opposite way, it will probably get progressively worse. There's a lot of lines that are pointless to go down because they get out scaled early.
True, it often feels like the game is decided very early, purely by RNG. If you don't have any power house by turn 7, while other players do, you're done, because they will grow from now on (every single turn), and you will fall behind more and more.
There's no longer a bucket system in Arena though. They removed that like 2 years ago.
If you see a bad post on the forum use the report function under it, so I or someone else of the moderation team can take care of it!
This. If Bob decides to suicide you by offering you 2 unstable ghouls and 2 undesirable Tier 1 units on 5 mana or 6 mana, you probably are doomed.
This is why Ysera and Flurgal, who are guaranteed synergy units and therefore inevitable triples are #1 and #2 heroes.
The could fix this by offering 3 free refreshes every turn (and deleting idiot Millhouse Manastorm who shouldn't be a hero).