Do you know anything about recent changes to the matchmaking system or hidden MMR? Until last friday, everything seemed "normal". My ranking was around 6600 (in EU) and I was doing as usual (which means I was ending up in the top 5). Suddenly something changed. From saturday, I started to get crushed by literally EVERYONE (I finished about 10-15 games in a row in bottom 3). It's not even that I was very unlucky with cards, because everything was like it used to be before. Yet, other players were just outperforming me in every way. Their builds in turn 4-5 resembled those that I usually achieve in turn 7-8 (1-2 triples, high stats) and I was dying constantly around turn 10-12.
Then I had the idea that I need to lower my hidden MMR (you know, just to have fun, because being dead in bottom 3 before turn 12 is not). I started losing on purpose (leaving the match at the very beginning) until I got ranking below 4000 and then things normalized (I started to see players more on my skill level). Has anyone had similar experiences recently?
Well, recently I dropped from nearly 7k to 5,5k, even though before I rarely finished outside of top 4. But I blame the changes to the meta (not the most recent patch, the previous one). New meta requires learning new stuff, simple as that.
I play around 8-10 games a week around 6000 and after the murloc nerf got crushed in the next 3-4 games I played. I don't put the time into learning the meta though so I just put it down to the fact I didn't really know the speed of the game or what the best comps were. I also got pretty low tier heroes in the games I played according to HSreplay add on. Like I say though I've always played BGs learning as I go along so I'm not salty.
6600 IS your MMR rating in Battlegrounds. It is only in the real game it is "hidden."
Also, be careful about confirmation bias. As you climb, every little mistake become more costly. Maybe you had a lucky streak to get UP in MMR? Maybe you are tilted? Maybe you got unlucky? You need more games and focus to even things out.
I also lost a few points lately, but nothing dramatic, but it just seems like my playstyle is not quite as effective anymore.
People are living longer out of the midgame due to removal of cannon. This means later tiers are more diluted. Basically more people are getting to tavern 5. With Megasaur gone late game shifts are not really a thing. So basically if you get to turn 5 with a comp and the game doesn't offer you the correct minions. you lose.
the RNG has shifted from the midgame attacks and tokens to the late game builds.
inb4 someone says something about, well in one game this happened.
Track your games on a spreadsheet and record what the build was and weither you were offered minions that allowed an ingame transition or not.
I don't thinks so. I mean, 70% of the time I play bad heroes (I don't have tavern pass), but I didn't have it earlier either. Maybe this new meta requires pass more than before?
People are living longer out of the midgame due to removal of cannon. This means later tiers are more diluted. Basically more people are getting to tavern 5. With Megasaur gone late game shifts are not really a thing. So basically if you get to turn 5 with a comp and the game doesn't offer you the correct minions. you lose.
the RNG has shifted from the midgame attacks and tokens to the late game builds.
inb4 someone says something about, well in one game this happened.
Track your games on a spreadsheet and record what the build was and weither you were offered minions that allowed an ingame transition or not.
I wasn't actually playing any particular builds there. I was just trying to survive (by buying anything that would keep me going) and usually by the time I had a chance to buy anything specific, I was already dead.
People are living longer out of the midgame due to removal of cannon. This means later tiers are more diluted. Basically more people are getting to tavern 5. With Megasaur gone late game shifts are not really a thing. So basically if you get to turn 5 with a comp and the game doesn't offer you the correct minions. you lose.
the RNG has shifted from the midgame attacks and tokens to the late game builds.
inb4 someone says something about, well in one game this happened.
Track your games on a spreadsheet and record what the build was and weither you were offered minions that allowed an ingame transition or not.
I wasn't actually playing any particular builds there. I was just trying to survive (by buying anything that would keep me going) and usually by the time I had a chance to buy anything specific, I was already dead.
Have you tried watching streams of 11-15k players? They bomb out like you describe too, but you should be able to pick up some tricks about how to played each hero, which minions to avoid and how to level up and make transitions. As described above, they rarely get to level 6 anymore, for example.
I have really enjoyed the metagame atm. Sure, highroll murlocs often win, but there are many different ways to do well.
People are living longer out of the midgame due to removal of cannon. This means later tiers are more diluted. Basically more people are getting to tavern 5. With Megasaur gone late game shifts are not really a thing. So basically if you get to turn 5 with a comp and the game doesn't offer you the correct minions. you lose.
the RNG has shifted from the midgame attacks and tokens to the late game builds.
inb4 someone says something about, well in one game this happened.
Track your games on a spreadsheet and record what the build was and weither you were offered minions that allowed an ingame transition or not.
I wasn't actually playing any particular builds there. I was just trying to survive (by buying anything that would keep me going) and usually by the time I had a chance to buy anything specific, I was already dead.
You seem to be just disregarding any advice people are trying to provide to whine about bad luck without saying you think you’re having bad luck, if you don’t want feedback just post your gripe in the salt forum.
You seem to be just disregarding any advice people are trying to provide to whine about bad luck without saying you think you’re having bad luck, if you don’t want feedback just post your gripe in the salt forum.
If you want to participate in the discussion, please learn to read with understanding first.
I never said it was a matter of bad luck. Actually quite the opposite, I emphasized several times that the cards or RNG were not the issue. The reason was (or at least I think it was) that I was playing against much better players than myself and apparently I wasn't able to match their skill and keep up. This is something that cannot be easily dealt with. An amateur will not defeat world champion just because you advise him so...
Moreover, my answer you quoted was not a rejection of help, that was an explanation. You told me:
Track your games on a spreadsheet and record what the build was and weither you were offered minions that allowed an ingame transition or not.
So I replied that it's not possible, because there were no transitions and no builds at all. I wasn't able to have any, because I never made it to the late game (I was dead before I had a chance, around turn 11-12). What did you not understood about this?
I have noticed that lately it is a lot more likely to get smoked by a better build in the mid game. I don't think it has any relevance to mmr though. I think there are more and more people interested in the game mode and are watching streamers at higher ranks to improve their strategies and game play plus those of us who have been playing since the start and have gotten a better handle on how to properly build a winning warband.
As for your choice to drop down to a significantly lower mmr to be successful, imo that is always going to show positive results because of your experience compared to those at those ranks. The following is just just my 2 cents.
I think the first question any of us should ask is just how important is increasing our rating to us. If you are playing purely to have a ton of fun and go for crazy late game builds on a consistent basis then playing at a lower rating level will probably be the most ideal route. If you want to have fun and maybe take a few shots at awesome late game builds then I would just play however and let the chips fall where they may. If you want to climb to the higher ranks then I would suggest watching streamers and pay attention to what they buy, any reasons they provide is always useful and when they rank up with that specific hero and match up since every game varies alot in the early and mid game, knowing when to focus on the build vs when to push a level has always been my struggle and watching them gives me a bit of insight on when to do which.
I fluctuate between 5400-6300 and play about 15-20 games a day. 181 first place and 800 top 4 in 510 hours of play so I am definitely on the lower end of average for performance. That said I generally have fun and don't mind quitting a game early when my build just sucks and doesn't give me any pretense of hope.
It sounds like you're trying to hold on to the midgame mindset a little too long. By that, I mean it's possible to pick up a toxfin in preparation for the next random murloc offered, just to replace your weakest minion. Sure, you'll have to open up two spaces on the board ... but in most late game comps, it is best to leave one or two slots open for battlecries and tech cards when you need to counter your next opponent (zap, ghoul, etc.). A composition which chokes out that one slot either needs to finish first soon, or it will be out scaled.
You say you die around turn 11-12 without being able to make it to the late game ... but in my opinion, turns 11-12 are well into the late game. I have found myself jumping back and forth between 6500-7500 quite a bit lately, and I think it's because I have a tendency to cling to specific boards that have consistently worked in the past. But if those minions are never offered, then all it means is that I have rolled past other opportunities that Bob provided. I think that is what is usually responsible for my losing streaks.
but in my opinion, turns 11-12 are well into the late game.
Exactly, but the point is, when I lose every single round, I don't think about late game, but just about the survival. It slows me down even more and makes things even harder, but what else can I do? In my opinion the main problem was that I couldn't build strong enough board in early and mid game and other players did it better than me. I think it wasn't matter of luck, but skill, because as my rank went down, other player's boards started to look more like mine again.
but in my opinion, turns 11-12 are well into the late game.
Exactly, but the point is, when I lose every single round, I don't think about late game, but just about the survival. It slows me down even more and makes things even harder, but what else can I do? In my opinion the main problem was that I couldn't build strong enough board in early and mid game and other players did it better than me. I think it wasn't matter of luck, but skill, because as my rank went down, other player's boards started to look more like mine again.
Don't think too much about losing at the start of the game. Of course it's more comfortable to win, but it's really not always that relevant (for example if you play a pogo build you're most likely going to lose more then 1 game in the early stages, but the times I tried it I always manage to get top 3 in the end => it's honestly a pretty good build if you're playing Brann or Shudderwock).
If you're 10 health or less I understand that going survival mode is the best option, otherwise health is just another tool in battlegrounds (and the game in general).
By the way, my MMR also goes from 8500 to 7500 and back to 8500 (now around 8K) so it's not that uncommon. If you have the in-game gold to buy the perks I would definitely do it if you like battlegrounds, the 2 extra heroes you can choose from can also make a lot of difference in your MMR.
I must say it actually helped me a lot :). Well, beating scrubs (I mean people below 5k ranking) isn't the most glorious thing, but few extra turns before real fight can work wonders. I've already reached rank 5500 and experimented a lot during that time. Now I understand better what works and what doesn't in this meta, so I can adapt better. By the way, in my opinion this meta is too fast (dmg output is too high) and better players can take too much advantage of it, making games too short.
Also such attitude is very helpful: It's always my fault!
It's never RNG, it's ALWAYS my lack of skill, so I have to do better. Of course this is not always true, because we all know very random nature of this game. If you have choice: Jaraxxus or Galakrond and then the game doesn't give you ANY demon until turn 8... I don't have to explain it, right? Yet it's still much better than dismissing responsibility for the result and blaming just RNG.
I did quite well with the kitty just staying mostly on lvl4. When you think about it, you are really buying into RNG when going for bran or Baron. I did end up coming in second to such a build, someone in my MMR going for broke or just got lucky.
A lot of players were getting fed cheese wins from Eudora, Megasaur and Cannon before the patch, but weren't really striving to master all the fundamentals and nuances of the game.
The new meta rewards statistical play more and mastering the small things that flip a -5 loss into a +5 win. Do that 3 times a game and it makes a difference.
MMR tries to match you against your peers so you can enjoy the game and have fun --- so it is sinking you so you are matched up against the other players of your skill level.
You didn't enjoy all the losing games the against the "good players" and admit that the games were more fun once you got matched up with the beginners. So the system is working and you are having fun.
If the issue is discovering your peer group is "the beginners", you can choose to learn the game fundamentals if that really bothers you.
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Do you know anything about recent changes to the matchmaking system or hidden MMR? Until last friday, everything seemed "normal". My ranking was around 6600 (in EU) and I was doing as usual (which means I was ending up in the top 5). Suddenly something changed. From saturday, I started to get crushed by literally EVERYONE (I finished about 10-15 games in a row in bottom 3). It's not even that I was very unlucky with cards, because everything was like it used to be before. Yet, other players were just outperforming me in every way. Their builds in turn 4-5 resembled those that I usually achieve in turn 7-8 (1-2 triples, high stats) and I was dying constantly around turn 10-12.
Then I had the idea that I need to lower my hidden MMR (you know, just to have fun, because being dead in bottom 3 before turn 12 is not). I started losing on purpose (leaving the match at the very beginning) until I got ranking below 4000 and then things normalized (I started to see players more on my skill level). Has anyone had similar experiences recently?
Well, recently I dropped from nearly 7k to 5,5k, even though before I rarely finished outside of top 4. But I blame the changes to the meta (not the most recent patch, the previous one). New meta requires learning new stuff, simple as that.
I play around 8-10 games a week around 6000 and after the murloc nerf got crushed in the next 3-4 games I played. I don't put the time into learning the meta though so I just put it down to the fact I didn't really know the speed of the game or what the best comps were. I also got pretty low tier heroes in the games I played according to HSreplay add on. Like I say though I've always played BGs learning as I go along so I'm not salty.
6600 IS your MMR rating in Battlegrounds. It is only in the real game it is "hidden."
Also, be careful about confirmation bias. As you climb, every little mistake become more costly. Maybe you had a lucky streak to get UP in MMR? Maybe you are tilted? Maybe you got unlucky? You need more games and focus to even things out.
I also lost a few points lately, but nothing dramatic, but it just seems like my playstyle is not quite as effective anymore.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
People are living longer out of the midgame due to removal of cannon. This means later tiers are more diluted. Basically more people are getting to tavern 5. With Megasaur gone late game shifts are not really a thing. So basically if you get to turn 5 with a comp and the game doesn't offer you the correct minions. you lose.
the RNG has shifted from the midgame attacks and tokens to the late game builds.
inb4 someone says something about, well in one game this happened.
Track your games on a spreadsheet and record what the build was and weither you were offered minions that allowed an ingame transition or not.
True, but why I suddenly become the only one committing them?
Apparently my skill level is 4000 (I can win anything here), so that would mean 2600 points were matter of luck that I had for a few months...?
No.
I don't thinks so. I mean, 70% of the time I play bad heroes (I don't have tavern pass), but I didn't have it earlier either. Maybe this new meta requires pass more than before?
Nah, I just didn't have the skills to match those people I guess. Heck, I didn't even know you could have board this strong, so early!
I wasn't actually playing any particular builds there. I was just trying to survive (by buying anything that would keep me going) and usually by the time I had a chance to buy anything specific, I was already dead.
Have you tried watching streams of 11-15k players? They bomb out like you describe too, but you should be able to pick up some tricks about how to played each hero, which minions to avoid and how to level up and make transitions. As described above, they rarely get to level 6 anymore, for example.
I have really enjoyed the metagame atm. Sure, highroll murlocs often win, but there are many different ways to do well.
Editor of the Heartpwn Legendary Crafting Guide:
https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/card-discussion/205920-legendary-tier-list-crafting-guide
@SlydE
I do, Kripp, Savjz sometimes Rdu.
Probably you are not buying enough Beasts...or their counter, atleast before they go galactic with guldran's and rivendares....Pirates.
You seem to be just disregarding any advice people are trying to provide to whine about bad luck without saying you think you’re having bad luck, if you don’t want feedback just post your gripe in the salt forum.
If you want to participate in the discussion, please learn to read with understanding first.
I never said it was a matter of bad luck. Actually quite the opposite, I emphasized several times that the cards or RNG were not the issue. The reason was (or at least I think it was) that I was playing against much better players than myself and apparently I wasn't able to match their skill and keep up. This is something that cannot be easily dealt with. An amateur will not defeat world champion just because you advise him so...
Moreover, my answer you quoted was not a rejection of help, that was an explanation. You told me:
So I replied that it's not possible, because there were no transitions and no builds at all. I wasn't able to have any, because I never made it to the late game (I was dead before I had a chance, around turn 11-12). What did you not understood about this?
I have noticed that lately it is a lot more likely to get smoked by a better build in the mid game. I don't think it has any relevance to mmr though. I think there are more and more people interested in the game mode and are watching streamers at higher ranks to improve their strategies and game play plus those of us who have been playing since the start and have gotten a better handle on how to properly build a winning warband.
As for your choice to drop down to a significantly lower mmr to be successful, imo that is always going to show positive results because of your experience compared to those at those ranks. The following is just just my 2 cents.
I think the first question any of us should ask is just how important is increasing our rating to us. If you are playing purely to have a ton of fun and go for crazy late game builds on a consistent basis then playing at a lower rating level will probably be the most ideal route. If you want to have fun and maybe take a few shots at awesome late game builds then I would just play however and let the chips fall where they may. If you want to climb to the higher ranks then I would suggest watching streamers and pay attention to what they buy, any reasons they provide is always useful and when they rank up with that specific hero and match up since every game varies alot in the early and mid game, knowing when to focus on the build vs when to push a level has always been my struggle and watching them gives me a bit of insight on when to do which.
I fluctuate between 5400-6300 and play about 15-20 games a day. 181 first place and 800 top 4 in 510 hours of play so I am definitely on the lower end of average for performance. That said I generally have fun and don't mind quitting a game early when my build just sucks and doesn't give me any pretense of hope.
Maybe you just need more time than others to understand the meta. You'll probably get back to 6k again if you play more games.
It sounds like you're trying to hold on to the midgame mindset a little too long. By that, I mean it's possible to pick up a toxfin in preparation for the next random murloc offered, just to replace your weakest minion. Sure, you'll have to open up two spaces on the board ... but in most late game comps, it is best to leave one or two slots open for battlecries and tech cards when you need to counter your next opponent (zap, ghoul, etc.). A composition which chokes out that one slot either needs to finish first soon, or it will be out scaled.
You say you die around turn 11-12 without being able to make it to the late game ... but in my opinion, turns 11-12 are well into the late game. I have found myself jumping back and forth between 6500-7500 quite a bit lately, and I think it's because I have a tendency to cling to specific boards that have consistently worked in the past. But if those minions are never offered, then all it means is that I have rolled past other opportunities that Bob provided. I think that is what is usually responsible for my losing streaks.
I hope this helps.
Exactly, but the point is, when I lose every single round, I don't think about late game, but just about the survival. It slows me down even more and makes things even harder, but what else can I do? In my opinion the main problem was that I couldn't build strong enough board in early and mid game and other players did it better than me. I think it wasn't matter of luck, but skill, because as my rank went down, other player's boards started to look more like mine again.
Don't think too much about losing at the start of the game. Of course it's more comfortable to win, but it's really not always that relevant (for example if you play a pogo build you're most likely going to lose more then 1 game in the early stages, but the times I tried it I always manage to get top 3 in the end => it's honestly a pretty good build if you're playing Brann or Shudderwock).
If you're 10 health or less I understand that going survival mode is the best option, otherwise health is just another tool in battlegrounds (and the game in general).
By the way, my MMR also goes from 8500 to 7500 and back to 8500 (now around 8K) so it's not that uncommon. If you have the in-game gold to buy the perks I would definitely do it if you like battlegrounds, the 2 extra heroes you can choose from can also make a lot of difference in your MMR.
I must say it actually helped me a lot :). Well, beating scrubs (I mean people below 5k ranking) isn't the most glorious thing, but few extra turns before real fight can work wonders. I've already reached rank 5500 and experimented a lot during that time. Now I understand better what works and what doesn't in this meta, so I can adapt better. By the way, in my opinion this meta is too fast (dmg output is too high) and better players can take too much advantage of it, making games too short.
Also such attitude is very helpful: It's always my fault!
It's never RNG, it's ALWAYS my lack of skill, so I have to do better. Of course this is not always true, because we all know very random nature of this game. If you have choice: Jaraxxus or Galakrond and then the game doesn't give you ANY demon until turn 8... I don't have to explain it, right? Yet it's still much better than dismissing responsibility for the result and blaming just RNG.
I did quite well with the kitty just staying mostly on lvl4. When you think about it, you are really buying into RNG when going for bran or Baron. I did end up coming in second to such a build, someone in my MMR going for broke or just got lucky.
A lot of players were getting fed cheese wins from Eudora, Megasaur and Cannon before the patch, but weren't really striving to master all the fundamentals and nuances of the game.
The new meta rewards statistical play more and mastering the small things that flip a -5 loss into a +5 win. Do that 3 times a game and it makes a difference.
MMR tries to match you against your peers so you can enjoy the game and have fun --- so it is sinking you so you are matched up against the other players of your skill level.
You didn't enjoy all the losing games the against the "good players" and admit that the games were more fun once you got matched up with the beginners. So the system is working and you are having fun.
If the issue is discovering your peer group is "the beginners", you can choose to learn the game fundamentals if that really bothers you.