These two cards really snowball Murloc warbands in the lategame to the point it’s physically impossible to catch up. Bagurgle’s permanent attack and health buffs combined with Gentle Megasaur’s poisonous and divine shields makes Murloc bands invincible. One or the other should be in the mode, but not both.
Murlocs are only strong in the end- game and rely on getting tier 5+ cards to become very strong (Megasaur, Brann, Burglgl)
You actually need to survive long enough to get to those combos so it's really not that strong in the short run... There's a reason why Fungalmancer is the one of the weakest hero
I wonder if I am the only one thinking murlocs suck. Probably because they never work for me (even if I finally get to Megasaur, it doesn't give me bubbles or poison) and because I much more often lose to Dragons or Mechs than to Murlocs.
Murloc builds take a lot of skill because navigating the midgame is difficult, figuring when to level or roll, unless you get super lucky which is just the nature of BG, you can high roll
I think it's fair to criticize that Divine Shield + Poison from Megasaur, and the additional bonus of Tokens or Windfury, is too much of a power spike potential in one card. But without it, the tribe becomes even less viable than it already is. In other words, it would need some sort of alternative. Maybe replace Megasaur with Scalelord, so that the poison part requires you to buy multiple Toxfins. or something like that. It feels bad to lose to an invincible board, but Murlocs are still a very risky strategy that oftentimes won't work out, and managing to pull it off should come with something special.
I personally think it's more important to buff beasts than to change murlocs. Winning with a beast build is almost as difficult and unlikely as winning with murlocs, but even the best possible beast builds can get outstatted, without poison or divine shield at their disposal (aside from Maexxna). And buffing another tribe would hurt murlocs as well, because they usually need quite a few turns to grow.
I wonder if I am the only one thinking murlocs suck. Probably because they never work for me (even if I finally get to Megasaur, it doesn't give me bubbles or poison) and because I much more often lose to Dragons or Mechs than to Murlocs.
Murlocs do suck in most cases. For every time, that a player manages to get a strong murloc build going, you have a dozen players dropping out somewhere between 8th and 5th place, who tried to get there. For murlocs, you need to get to level 5 fast (and ideally level with a triple), you need very good rolls, and matchups that don't kill you as you get there. It's just unlikely to happen, but when it happens, it's glorious.
It's odd that they suddenly seem viable again. They still seemed too slow and weak in the mid-game even after Felfin Navigator patch. The only change since then has been Millhouse getting nerfed, and now it seems like there's routinely a Murloc comp making it to the final four (at 8000, at least). Was getting rid of a god tier hero (and one that doesn't synergize with Murlocs all that well) enough to change the meta?
Murlocs are not easy to play, you need to be very efficient on the midgame cause that's where murlocs get destroyed. If you manage to get to the late game you still need to find megasaur and hit divine shield, poisonous is easier to get but you need divine shield or you lose to most others late game builds.
Murlocs will be the late game buld to aspire to until something changes, that is for sure. Anytime the meta slows down they come back to the top. Tirion and Deathwing were so powerful they created their own metas, same for millhouse. Generally if there is one OP hero that is able to level quickly everyone else will follow to try and keep up, and this squeezes murlocs out. Anytime it slows down, even by a round or two, they come back to the top again, atleast in terms of finishing first, and that is kinda boring now. We've seen it enough.
I think it's fair to criticize that Divine Shield + Poison from Megasaur, and the additional bonus of Tokens or Windfury, is too much of a power spike potential in one card. But without it, the tribe becomes even less viable than it already is. In other words, it would need some sort of alternative. Maybe replace Megasaur with Scalelord, so that the poison part requires you to buy multiple Toxfins. or something like that. It feels bad to lose to an invincible board, but Murlocs are still a very risky strategy that oftentimes won't work out, and managing to pull it off should come with something special.
Every so often on the internet, and it isn't very frequent, you read an idea and it actually seems like a good one. Scalelord might be a vast improvement over Gentle Megasaur. Things it does:
It removes the chance of having a big board of murlocs late game just get hosed by a bad roll on Megasaur.
It removes the any sort of one-turn Murloc transition, since you won't be able to get poison to make up for weak attack. I think this is mostly good. Someone getting a lucky Brann late game and swapping their entire comp in a single turn, while it makes for a neat highlight reel, probably isn't great for the game. Swapping comp late game should be a really risky situation.
It means incremental attack buffs matter. Having Warleader is important. Having Tidecaller grow over the course of the game is probably useful.
It means that a poison board is significantly more expensive, since you'll need to buy Toxfin over and over again.
I'm not sure if Brann becomes more or less important. He was pretty mandatory with Megasaur, so that you don't lose to a single bad adapt, but doesn't add to Scalefin. However, doubling King Bagurgle and Navigator is a lot more useful.
Getting Divine Shield onto a Holy Mackerel is probably a lot more consistent. But Holy Mackerel might need a revision anyhow.
//
Meanwhile, beasts do need work. I think it stinks that there is kind of only one beast design: a deathrattle into more beasts. I'd love to see Rat Pack moved to 3 (Rat is fine, except when it isn't), and Infested Wolf removed entirely, and a new beast created for Tavern 2, and another for Tavern 5 or 6. The battlegrounds-exclusive dragon designs were really quite nice. I'd love to see some new beasts along these lines; right now they suffer for being too limited by normal hearthstone design.
Another thing with potential: replacing Maexxna with Volcanosaur would be sweet. Maybe that'd be too strong, since it could be an instant Poisonous/Divine Shield, which is a bit of a yikes. Oh, but it'd be wicked cool... Hrm...
Murlocs, like a lot of builds, feel unstoppable when they are "Complete". Demons with a Triple Soul Juggle (or two), Dragons with the full package of buffs. Even beasts with their full package. But getting there is hard. If three people go Murloc in a single game, chances are they might all die because they are diluting the pool.
I think it's fair to criticize that Divine Shield + Poison from Megasaur, and the additional bonus of Tokens or Windfury, is too much of a power spike potential in one card. But without it, the tribe becomes even less viable than it already is. In other words, it would need some sort of alternative. Maybe replace Megasaur with Scalelord, so that the poison part requires you to buy multiple Toxfins. or something like that. It feels bad to lose to an invincible board, but Murlocs are still a very risky strategy that oftentimes won't work out, and managing to pull it off should come with something special.
I personally think it's more important to buff beasts than to change murlocs. Winning with a beast build is almost as difficult and unlikely as winning with murlocs, but even the best possible beast builds can get outstatted, without poison or divine shield at their disposal (aside from Maexxna). And buffing another tribe would hurt murlocs as well, because they usually need quite a few turns to grow.
I wonder if I am the only one thinking murlocs suck. Probably because they never work for me (even if I finally get to Megasaur, it doesn't give me bubbles or poison) and because I much more often lose to Dragons or Mechs than to Murlocs.
Murlocs do suck in most cases. For every time, that a player manages to get a strong murloc build going, you have a dozen players dropping out somewhere between 8th and 5th place, who tried to get there. For murlocs, you need to get to level 5 fast (and ideally level with a triple), you need very good rolls, and matchups that don't kill you as you get there. It's just unlikely to happen, but when it happens, it's glorious.
Yeah, the dream happened to me probably only once. The second time I did get there, but my Megasaurs were shit as if it wasn't hard enough to even get there. After few more times when I was going for the dream and wasn't even close, I simply refused to try to go for murlocs. Don't remember the last time I actually wen for them.
I think it's fair to criticize that Divine Shield + Poison from Megasaur, and the additional bonus of Tokens or Windfury, is too much of a power spike potential in one card. But without it, the tribe becomes even less viable than it already is. In other words, it would need some sort of alternative. Maybe replace Megasaur with Scalelord, so that the poison part requires you to buy multiple Toxfins. or something like that. It feels bad to lose to an invincible board, but Murlocs are still a very risky strategy that oftentimes won't work out, and managing to pull it off should come with something special.
I personally think it's more important to buff beasts than to change murlocs. Winning with a beast build is almost as difficult and unlikely as winning with murlocs, but even the best possible beast builds can get outstatted, without poison or divine shield at their disposal (aside from Maexxna). And buffing another tribe would hurt murlocs as well, because they usually need quite a few turns to grow.
I wonder if I am the only one thinking murlocs suck. Probably because they never work for me (even if I finally get to Megasaur, it doesn't give me bubbles or poison) and because I much more often lose to Dragons or Mechs than to Murlocs.
Murlocs do suck in most cases. For every time, that a player manages to get a strong murloc build going, you have a dozen players dropping out somewhere between 8th and 5th place, who tried to get there. For murlocs, you need to get to level 5 fast (and ideally level with a triple), you need very good rolls, and matchups that don't kill you as you get there. It's just unlikely to happen, but when it happens, it's glorious.
Pretty sure Scalelord is way stronger than megasaur. You are guaranteed to get Divine shields. Having only 2-3 poisonous with divine shield can already win you a game
There are very few heroes capable of playing Murlocs well.
Mostly Murlocs get you killed early, but Rafaam and Nozdormu get triples so easily it is a little broken.
But it is mainly Rafaam that is a problem because he gets tons of free Murlocs in the early game.
I think there is a Murloc problem, but it is not what it seems. Rafaam has always been a bit bullshittie and when I play Rafaam, like everyone else I keep every Murloc I get in the hopes of collecting more.
* Sneaky players will abuse Shudderwock + Khadgar for the instant triples on any token unit.
I think that murlocs with the current game design are fine, in the exact place they should be. Each tribe has their strengths and weaknesses and they are balanced in this way.
Murlocs are very risky and generally weak until very late game, where they become invincible Dragons composition is generally a little easier to get than murlocs and in the late game they beat anything but murlocs. Beasts are extremely strong mid-late game, but lack scaling, so they can't compete with dragons and murlocs in very late game Demons are great in midgame, it's almost impossible to beat them at some point in the game, but similarly to beasts, they can't compete against other tribes in very late game Mechs and Menagerie are very solid at every stage of the game, but not exceptional
I think that changing Gentle Megasaur and King Bagurgle would require changing the whole balance philosophy of the game. Right now every tribe is unique, because they scale differently throughout the game. Being terrible whole game and then suddenly becoming unbeatable is just the thing that murlocs do and are supposed to do.
To be honest, I'd like all tribes to have a very similar power curve. I think it would be more fun if each strategy had equal chances at each point in the game. I think that there's no easy fix to this issue. The change proposed earlier in the thread:
Maybe replace Megasaur with Scalelord, so that the poison part requires you to buy multiple Toxfins. or something like that.
is great, but it should be one of many changes. Beasts and Demons should get some way of infinite scaling that wouldn't rely on stat buffs, Dragons should get more dragon synergy cards in midgame and Kalecgos should be toned down in some way, Murlocs should get 1 or 2 more buff cards and Brann should be removed from the game.
I don't think that there will be any significant changes until they release "battlegrounds expansion" and the whole card pool will be reworked. I hope that when the time comes, they will change the whole balance of the game, so that each tribe will have similar power curve throughout the game. This way there won't be place any more for cards like Gentle Megasaur.
Murlocs are only strong in the end- game and rely on getting tier 5+ cards to become very strong (Megasaur, Brann, Burglgl)
You actually need to survive long enough to get to those combos so it's really not that strong in the short run... There's a reason why Fungalmancer is the one of the weakest hero
Hooray! Someone who knows what he's talking about.
I'd like to add that the increase in tier 6 minions makes Megasaur more difficult to find. I've whiffed on him more times that I'd like.
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These two cards really snowball Murloc warbands in the lategame to the point it’s physically impossible to catch up. Bagurgle’s permanent attack and health buffs combined with Gentle Megasaur’s poisonous and divine shields makes Murloc bands invincible. One or the other should be in the mode, but not both.
Use Ghouls to counter Divine Shields...
Murlocs are only strong in the end- game and rely on getting tier 5+ cards to become very strong (Megasaur, Brann, Burglgl)
You actually need to survive long enough to get to those combos so it's really not that strong in the short run... There's a reason why Fungalmancer is the one of the weakest hero
Less than 2000MMR spotted
I wonder if I am the only one thinking murlocs suck. Probably because they never work for me (even if I finally get to Megasaur, it doesn't give me bubbles or poison) and because I much more often lose to Dragons or Mechs than to Murlocs.
Murloc builds take a lot of skill because navigating the midgame is difficult, figuring when to level or roll, unless you get super lucky which is just the nature of BG, you can high roll
I think it's fair to criticize that Divine Shield + Poison from Megasaur, and the additional bonus of Tokens or Windfury, is too much of a power spike potential in one card. But without it, the tribe becomes even less viable than it already is. In other words, it would need some sort of alternative. Maybe replace Megasaur with Scalelord, so that the poison part requires you to buy multiple Toxfins. or something like that. It feels bad to lose to an invincible board, but Murlocs are still a very risky strategy that oftentimes won't work out, and managing to pull it off should come with something special.
I personally think it's more important to buff beasts than to change murlocs. Winning with a beast build is almost as difficult and unlikely as winning with murlocs, but even the best possible beast builds can get outstatted, without poison or divine shield at their disposal (aside from Maexxna). And buffing another tribe would hurt murlocs as well, because they usually need quite a few turns to grow.
Murlocs do suck in most cases. For every time, that a player manages to get a strong murloc build going, you have a dozen players dropping out somewhere between 8th and 5th place, who tried to get there. For murlocs, you need to get to level 5 fast (and ideally level with a triple), you need very good rolls, and matchups that don't kill you as you get there. It's just unlikely to happen, but when it happens, it's glorious.
It's odd that they suddenly seem viable again. They still seemed too slow and weak in the mid-game even after Felfin Navigator patch. The only change since then has been Millhouse getting nerfed, and now it seems like there's routinely a Murloc comp making it to the final four (at 8000, at least). Was getting rid of a god tier hero (and one that doesn't synergize with Murlocs all that well) enough to change the meta?
Murlocs are not easy to play, you need to be very efficient on the midgame cause that's where murlocs get destroyed. If you manage to get to the late game you still need to find megasaur and hit divine shield, poisonous is easier to get but you need divine shield or you lose to most others late game builds.
Murlocs will be the late game buld to aspire to until something changes, that is for sure. Anytime the meta slows down they come back to the top. Tirion and Deathwing were so powerful they created their own metas, same for millhouse. Generally if there is one OP hero that is able to level quickly everyone else will follow to try and keep up, and this squeezes murlocs out. Anytime it slows down, even by a round or two, they come back to the top again, atleast in terms of finishing first, and that is kinda boring now. We've seen it enough.
Every so often on the internet, and it isn't very frequent, you read an idea and it actually seems like a good one. Scalelord might be a vast improvement over Gentle Megasaur. Things it does:
//
Meanwhile, beasts do need work. I think it stinks that there is kind of only one beast design: a deathrattle into more beasts. I'd love to see Rat Pack moved to 3 (Rat is fine, except when it isn't), and Infested Wolf removed entirely, and a new beast created for Tavern 2, and another for Tavern 5 or 6. The battlegrounds-exclusive dragon designs were really quite nice. I'd love to see some new beasts along these lines; right now they suffer for being too limited by normal hearthstone design.
Another thing with potential: replacing Maexxna with Volcanosaur would be sweet. Maybe that'd be too strong, since it could be an instant Poisonous/Divine Shield, which is a bit of a yikes. Oh, but it'd be wicked cool... Hrm...
Murlocs, like a lot of builds, feel unstoppable when they are "Complete". Demons with a Triple Soul Juggle (or two), Dragons with the full package of buffs. Even beasts with their full package. But getting there is hard. If three people go Murloc in a single game, chances are they might all die because they are diluting the pool.
Yeah, the dream happened to me probably only once. The second time I did get there, but my Megasaurs were shit as if it wasn't hard enough to even get there. After few more times when I was going for the dream and wasn't even close, I simply refused to try to go for murlocs. Don't remember the last time I actually wen for them.
Hopefully they'll bring back Mukla one day with some beast card updates.
if you survive long enough with murlocs to get to that unstoppable stage then i say bargurgle and megasaur is a fair card to get
Pretty sure Scalelord is way stronger than megasaur. You are guaranteed to get Divine shields. Having only 2-3 poisonous with divine shield can already win you a game
There are very few heroes capable of playing Murlocs well.
Mostly Murlocs get you killed early, but Rafaam and Nozdormu get triples so easily it is a little broken.
But it is mainly Rafaam that is a problem because he gets tons of free Murlocs in the early game.
I think there is a Murloc problem, but it is not what it seems. Rafaam has always been a bit bullshittie and when I play Rafaam, like everyone else I keep every Murloc I get in the hopes of collecting more.
* Sneaky players will abuse Shudderwock + Khadgar for the instant triples on any token unit.
I think that murlocs with the current game design are fine, in the exact place they should be. Each tribe has their strengths and weaknesses and they are balanced in this way.
Murlocs are very risky and generally weak until very late game, where they become invincible
Dragons composition is generally a little easier to get than murlocs and in the late game they beat anything but murlocs.
Beasts are extremely strong mid-late game, but lack scaling, so they can't compete with dragons and murlocs in very late game
Demons are great in midgame, it's almost impossible to beat them at some point in the game, but similarly to beasts, they can't compete against other tribes in very late game
Mechs and Menagerie are very solid at every stage of the game, but not exceptional
I think that changing Gentle Megasaur and King Bagurgle would require changing the whole balance philosophy of the game. Right now every tribe is unique, because they scale differently throughout the game. Being terrible whole game and then suddenly becoming unbeatable is just the thing that murlocs do and are supposed to do.
To be honest, I'd like all tribes to have a very similar power curve. I think it would be more fun if each strategy had equal chances at each point in the game. I think that there's no easy fix to this issue. The change proposed earlier in the thread:
is great, but it should be one of many changes. Beasts and Demons should get some way of infinite scaling that wouldn't rely on stat buffs, Dragons should get more dragon synergy cards in midgame and Kalecgos should be toned down in some way, Murlocs should get 1 or 2 more buff cards and Brann should be removed from the game.
I don't think that there will be any significant changes until they release "battlegrounds expansion" and the whole card pool will be reworked. I hope that when the time comes, they will change the whole balance of the game, so that each tribe will have similar power curve throughout the game. This way there won't be place any more for cards like Gentle Megasaur.
If it happens it's unstoppable, but it's the ultimate high-roll and happens rarely enough to be a real issue.
1 thing i did not get was the buff to the T6 dragon that buff 1/1 for all battlecry... it was fine befor
Hooray! Someone who knows what he's talking about.
I'd like to add that the increase in tier 6 minions makes Megasaur more difficult to find. I've whiffed on him more times that I'd like.