Curious to hear some thoughts from the Hearthpwn community. I know it's still in Beta, so many changes are to come, but I feel like there are 5-6 heroes that are very good and maybe 8 or so that are not good at all. My main thought right now is that AFKay feels very strong. I know you instantly lose the first two rounds, but that can happen anyway with a bad round 1 draft. Her hero power is so strong on turn 3 that nearly anyone facing her will lose 9 or 10 health on that turn. I wonder if the hero power wouldn't still be fair at giving her two tier-3 minions instead of a 3 and a 4. Thoughts?
Overall though, I freaking love Battlegrounds. I was dead set on hating it when it was released, but now I only play Standard to get my daily quests. It's so fun!
Thanks to all who post on these forums! I always enjoy reading the posts.
I saw people win with the lowest tiers while wiping the floor with me at the finals while I have a tier 1 or 2 hero, including AFK... though I won and made more t4s with her than any.
I accidentally gave up 1st turn once, ended 2nd with the gold coin for 1, and if combat went otherwise, I'd win (we both were under 5 life). So first round isn't meaningless, but it's not all that.
AFK needs no tweek, it has midgame advantage without basic minions like 2/4 taunt, 2/3 pumping murloc, etc., while AFK almost must upgrade tavern on 3rd meaning not always having synergy or getting good 3&4 and chasing their tribe. It's not a guaranteed top 4, late mid game can be extremely tough.
Nightmare Amalgam needs to go, while the Curator should remain as is, as the 1/1 is a nightmare enough. Everyone inc. me just gets one no matter what, pump it with annoy module and murloc poison. Nerfing to tier 3 alone won't make the cut without adding a sufficient amount of t3 minions.
Ragnaros is plain stupid - the 8 dmg x 2 moves us to late mid game (before top 4), but then its ability costs 1 too much. 3 dmg x 2 in 1 gold is better for DS and 3/3 beast buff/demon dmg at those points, but there's 1 dmg to all in 1 that beats them both in mid and late game quality.
Hell, we need more versatility - stupid vanillas with tribe to nerf the pool, minions like cruel taskmaster to decrease 1 health instead of damage, and please, SOME spells. I love the secret hero, Ice Block and Doubling are alone worth it and are a challenge.
There'd always be power differences, and I manage the passives much better, but minions' tiers are lacking and 4-cost from the DR Mech are too often the same.
I'd add a hero that changes attack/health each combat (while handling them regularly in tavern);
Hero that has the first minion attacked deals only 1 damage or zero (temp buff, not like the DS);
Hero that when upgrading tavern - get a card that costs 4 (maybe 3 or 5) = get a duplicate from a minion you have on battlefield. Meaning 5 cards only, but a powerhouse.
Curious to hear some thoughts from the Hearthpwn community. I know it's still in Beta, so many changes are to come, but I feel like there are 5-6 heroes that are very good and maybe 8 or so that are not good at all. My main thought right now is that AFKay feels very strong. I know you instantly lose the first two rounds, but that can happen anyway with a bad round 1 draft. Her hero power is so strong on turn 3 that nearly anyone facing her will lose 9 or 10 health on that turn. I wonder if the hero power wouldn't still be fair at giving her two tier-3 minions instead of a 3 and a 4. Thoughts?
Overall though, I freaking love Battlegrounds. I was dead set on hating it when it was released, but now I only play Standard to get my daily quests. It's so fun!
Thanks to all who post on these forums! I always enjoy reading the posts.
Just like they are doing, changing heroes and removing/nerfing some op cards
amalgama should be a 3/4 star
and they should make more strong minions to tier 6 because it’s the worst tier so far, they could upgrade Lightfang to tiern6 so people don’t win in tier 4 taking a Lightfang from a golden minion
Can't say to much about OP minions or which should be balanced more.. i just feel like its too much luck involved (personally).
what i really miss is the option to see other peoples boards, like in other (more or less similar games).. since all buy from the same pool of cards, i think that would make me feel less disapointed if i search for a certain card.
Totally forgot to mention Nightmare Amalgam! You’re exactly right. Often games come down to who has the biggest amalgam (WITH Annoy-o and Toxfin buffs, as you said). I think it’s a tier 3.5 card, so hard to say how to nerf it. I think nerfing it a tier would also make turn 2 more interesting. Sometimes, if I’m, say, King of Beasts, there is a good option to draft on turn 2. However, I always feel like not upgrading the tavern on turn 2 will allow everyone else to get the amalgams, which will ultimately result in a loss for me.
I see what you’re saying re:AFKay. I think the main thing for me is how it feels to be the player who gets unlucky enough to face her on round 3. Whenever she is in a game, it’s essentially like everyone else has to pick a number 1-7 and if they get the unlucky number, they start the game with 30 health. I definitely don’t think her hero power is too strong from the perspective of the player who is controlling her - it’s more from the perspective of the other players.
Thanks for your perspectives! Enjoyed reading them!
I somewhat agree that A.F.Kay can feel a bit too strong but it's a bit of a highroll if those two discovers carry you for the next 2 or 3 rounds. That ususally requires a Cave Hydra, a Cobalt Guardian or a Security Rover. If you get two cards that don't work at all with each other, you can fall behind quickly.
That being said, I agree some heroes feel underwhelming, but I think they should get buffed more, and the others not made worse. I think it's more fun if every hero feels strong in some way and plays differently, instead of everyone being on the level of Pyramad.
What I find more discussion-worthy: There are a few heroes (like Brann and Curator) who can can definitely stand up to AFK in dominating the early/midgame, and while some heroes are not that great early on, they can be extremely strong later (like George, Nefarian and Deryl). Considering how essential a good midgame is, I'm not sure if you should nerf the heroes who do extremely well in that phase, or buff the heroes that are usually having problems to survive long enough. It can be a bit annoying that you mostly need to survive the midgame, and everyone aims for the same few minions to get through. If you don't find them, you usually have little hope in developing any kind of strategy for the lategame.
We'll get some changes coming later today, so maybe some of it will be addressed already.
AFK is strong, sure, but I feel that heroes who can give you extra stats in the early game are even stronger. Rat King, Brann, Yogg, Daryl or even Sindragosa can beat a turn 3 AFK with a bit of luck, while still being higher in the Tavern upgrade race AND having their Health intact.
1. We shouldn't take damage for first 3 turns - at those turns we don't have too much choice and we are starting to game with a penalty for not playing certain heroes.
2. opponent rotation should be better yesterday I was playing afkay and my opponent faced me 3 times in the game and unfortunate guy lost the game and took 8th place.
3. They should adjust the tiers some minions are too good such as lightfang you can easily reach tier 5 and obtain it. Amalgam should be tier 4
4. instead of nerfing some heroes they should buff bad ones because nerfing limits the strategy while buffing improves the amount of strategies you can but into game.
don't allow someone to play against the same person before playing all the other available opponents. Too many games are lost by how many times you have to play AFKay after turn 3 before cut to top 4.
- Add Unstable Ghoul at tier 2 for a divine shield removale tech option.
- Move Nightmare Amalgam to tier 3.
- Move Cobolt Guardian to tier 4
- Maybe move Lightfang to tier 6, but there is already a rumour of a nerf to 2/1 buffs instead of 2/2.
- I would like to nerf murloc somehow, but I don't know how to since their late game is by far the strongest if they get the gentle megasaur unless you are nerfarien or if they ad Unstable Ghoul as a tech option.
- make some of the bad random heropowers targetable - like Pyramid head or what he is called - if you could choose which one to buff it would be a bit better - George got the ability to target his divine shield buff, why can't other do the same.
Jaraxxus feels especially bad to play or play against. If you know he's in the hero pool you might just buy all the good late game demons like Voidlord (which he is probably going for) on purpose. Considering that people would pick up multiple Wrath Weaver early on they are likely to be at low health at this point. And demons are like beasts, they become nothing but a huge pile of stats which tend to get destroyed by boards of mechs (say hi to divine shield), murlocs (say hi to poisonous) or menagerie (the ultimate late game strategy unless you're up vs. huge murlocs with all adaptations).
AFK is annoying if she high-rolls on turn 3 but otherwise very manageable and since she needs to keep up with TT upgrades before buying additional units it could even lead to her going out soon enough.
Pyramad, Gallywix and Wagtoggle are clearly underpowered and need to be rotated ASAP. Also, Sir Finley is basically a worse Brann so they might as well redesign him. Putricide is kinda cool if you get Cave Hydra quick enough but with the abundance of taunt minions with divine shield his power level decreases the longer the round goes on.
Sindragosa is kind of a trap. Yea, you might obtain two largely grown one star units on turn 3 but that's it. During the mid game you don't want to freeze the minions, especially during those turns when you've upgraded the tavern tier.
Regarding minion pool, some clearly don't belong in their respective tiers. It feels bad to see Ironhide Direhorn, Strongshell Scavenger and Mechano-Egg after getting a triple on TT4. On the other hand, if you're being offered Lightfang it's basically gg for the rest of the round which doesn't feel satisfying.
Can't say to much about OP minions or which should be balanced more.. i just feel like its too much luck involved (personally).
what i really miss is the option to see other peoples boards, like in other (more or less similar games).. since all buy from the same pool of cards, i think that would make me feel less disapointed if i search for a certain card.
They actually addressed this already. We won’t see other people’s board but what tribe they used the most. For example someone has mostly mechs you’ll see a mech icon next to their hero :) i think that’s a good way to do this. Seeing whole boards is too much information imo
I'd like to see some changes to how damage is calculated at the end of the turn, there can be some horrible rng involved where damage dealt is considerably more damage than what's deserved. Things that spawn from deathrattles are a huge reason for this so I think that anything that doesn't start on the board should only ever count for 1 damage at the end.
As for heroes, AFK is strong but certainly not the best, Brann and Deryl are both insanely powerful, but I'd rather see some of the unplayable heroes made better, I didn't pre-order so I only have the 2 hero choices for now and it's so often to see 2 terrible heroes and it feels pretty shitty when that happens, making it tough for me to get over 8k mmr when I have to pick between Putricide and Pyramid every other game. Those 2 heroes in particular would be considerably better if you could target the minion to get the buff, but for whatever reason they don't have any targetable hero powers in battlegrounds. Nefarian is one I'd like to see changed, divine shields are so important in battlegrounds and it's ridiculous that 1 hero can pretty much negate them entirely for 1 gold.
Further suggestions: replace The Boogeymonster with Gruul and move the unit down to TT4 (seems more appropriate considering that Bolvar is TT4 as well). For now, Boogers gets outclassed by Crowd Favorite which is a TT3 unit.
Add Floating Watcher as a TT3 or TT4 unit. It has synergy with Weaver and demons are lacking mid game support.
Also, move Nightmare Amalgam up to TT3. 10 ouf of 10 games everyone is trying to get them ASAP to buff their creatures up to the usual 37/52 with bubble, taunt and poisonous. One of the main reasons why Lightfang builds are so overwhelmingly powerful. The game shouldn't devolve into "who gets minion X first?" That way it's still accessible to counter the pure mech, demon or beast boards (which usually consist of multiple huge minions).
In regards to AFK, I don't think the issue is her power level as a hero overall, but the disadvantage it can put the unlucky players who draw her turn 3 and 4. If you lose your first two rounds, then draw her turn three you are usually in the mid 20s and severely behind everyone else.
I think amalgam at three would work. It starts the buffs later and gives some thought to how you tier up, considering you tier to two on turn two 98% of the time. I would be nervous to get hit for more damage from surviving amalgams though. Lightfang should definitely move to 6. I think they could even do a bottom tier system, like when you tier up to six (which some heroes don't ever want to do) you don't see tier ones anymore. Making Pyramad and Finley target-able is enough to make them playable imo. Starting Patchwerk at 50 gives him room to play aggressively without the luxury of auto hitting top four every game. Ultimately, I would like to see lightfang and amalgam go so more tribes can be introduced.
In regards to AFK, I don't think the issue is her power level as a hero overall, but the disadvantage it can put the unlucky players who draw her turn 3 and 4. If you lose your first two rounds, then draw her turn three you are usually in the mid 20s and severely behind everyone else.
I think amalgam at three would work. It starts the buffs later and gives some thought to how you tier up, considering you tier to two on turn two 98% of the time. I would be nervous to get hit for more damage from surviving amalgams though. Lightfang should definitely move to 6. I think they could even do a bottom tier system, like when you tier up to six (which some heroes don't ever want to do) you don't see tier ones anymore. Making Pyramad and Finley target-able is enough to make them playable imo. Starting Patchwerk at 50 gives him room to play aggressively without the luxury of auto hitting top four every game. Ultimately, I would like to see lightfang and amalgam go so more tribes can be introduced.
In relation to taking more damage from Amalgam I just wanted to say that Amalgam rarely survives as it is often the minion with taunt that gets killed by your second, third or fourth minion depending on your setup.
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Curious to hear some thoughts from the Hearthpwn community. I know it's still in Beta, so many changes are to come, but I feel like there are 5-6 heroes that are very good and maybe 8 or so that are not good at all. My main thought right now is that AFKay feels very strong. I know you instantly lose the first two rounds, but that can happen anyway with a bad round 1 draft. Her hero power is so strong on turn 3 that nearly anyone facing her will lose 9 or 10 health on that turn. I wonder if the hero power wouldn't still be fair at giving her two tier-3 minions instead of a 3 and a 4. Thoughts?
Overall though, I freaking love Battlegrounds. I was dead set on hating it when it was released, but now I only play Standard to get my daily quests. It's so fun!
Thanks to all who post on these forums! I always enjoy reading the posts.
I saw people win with the lowest tiers while wiping the floor with me at the finals while I have a tier 1 or 2 hero, including AFK... though I won and made more t4s with her than any.
I accidentally gave up 1st turn once, ended 2nd with the gold coin for 1, and if combat went otherwise, I'd win (we both were under 5 life). So first round isn't meaningless, but it's not all that.
AFK needs no tweek, it has midgame advantage without basic minions like 2/4 taunt, 2/3 pumping murloc, etc., while AFK almost must upgrade tavern on 3rd meaning not always having synergy or getting good 3&4 and chasing their tribe. It's not a guaranteed top 4, late mid game can be extremely tough.
Nightmare Amalgam needs to go, while the Curator should remain as is, as the 1/1 is a nightmare enough. Everyone inc. me just gets one no matter what, pump it with annoy module and murloc poison. Nerfing to tier 3 alone won't make the cut without adding a sufficient amount of t3 minions.
Ragnaros is plain stupid - the 8 dmg x 2 moves us to late mid game (before top 4), but then its ability costs 1 too much. 3 dmg x 2 in 1 gold is better for DS and 3/3 beast buff/demon dmg at those points, but there's 1 dmg to all in 1 that beats them both in mid and late game quality.
Hell, we need more versatility - stupid vanillas with tribe to nerf the pool, minions like cruel taskmaster to decrease 1 health instead of damage, and please, SOME spells. I love the secret hero, Ice Block and Doubling are alone worth it and are a challenge.
There'd always be power differences, and I manage the passives much better, but minions' tiers are lacking and 4-cost from the DR Mech are too often the same.
I'd add a hero that changes attack/health each combat (while handling them regularly in tavern);
Hero that has the first minion attacked deals only 1 damage or zero (temp buff, not like the DS);
Hero that when upgrading tavern - get a card that costs 4 (maybe 3 or 5) = get a duplicate from a minion you have on battlefield. Meaning 5 cards only, but a powerhouse.
Just make it playable on android.then it will be balanced for me.
Just like they are doing, changing heroes and removing/nerfing some op cards
amalgama should be a 3/4 star
and they should make more strong minions to tier 6 because it’s the worst tier so far, they could upgrade Lightfang to tiern6 so people don’t win in tier 4 taking a Lightfang from a golden minion
Favorite Cards: 1. Lord Jaraxxus | 2. Malygos| 3. Edwin VanCleef | 4. Zephrys the Great| 5. Deathwing
Can't say to much about OP minions or which should be balanced more.. i just feel like its too much luck involved (personally).
what i really miss is the option to see other peoples boards, like in other (more or less similar games).. since all buy from the same pool of cards, i think that would make me feel less disapointed if i search for a certain card.
Totally forgot to mention Nightmare Amalgam! You’re exactly right. Often games come down to who has the biggest amalgam (WITH Annoy-o and Toxfin buffs, as you said). I think it’s a tier 3.5 card, so hard to say how to nerf it. I think nerfing it a tier would also make turn 2 more interesting. Sometimes, if I’m, say, King of Beasts, there is a good option to draft on turn 2. However, I always feel like not upgrading the tavern on turn 2 will allow everyone else to get the amalgams, which will ultimately result in a loss for me.
I see what you’re saying re:AFKay. I think the main thing for me is how it feels to be the player who gets unlucky enough to face her on round 3. Whenever she is in a game, it’s essentially like everyone else has to pick a number 1-7 and if they get the unlucky number, they start the game with 30 health. I definitely don’t think her hero power is too strong from the perspective of the player who is controlling her - it’s more from the perspective of the other players.
Thanks for your perspectives! Enjoyed reading them!
I somewhat agree that A.F.Kay can feel a bit too strong but it's a bit of a highroll if those two discovers carry you for the next 2 or 3 rounds. That ususally requires a Cave Hydra, a Cobalt Guardian or a Security Rover. If you get two cards that don't work at all with each other, you can fall behind quickly.
That being said, I agree some heroes feel underwhelming, but I think they should get buffed more, and the others not made worse. I think it's more fun if every hero feels strong in some way and plays differently, instead of everyone being on the level of Pyramad.
What I find more discussion-worthy: There are a few heroes (like Brann and Curator) who can can definitely stand up to AFK in dominating the early/midgame, and while some heroes are not that great early on, they can be extremely strong later (like George, Nefarian and Deryl). Considering how essential a good midgame is, I'm not sure if you should nerf the heroes who do extremely well in that phase, or buff the heroes that are usually having problems to survive long enough. It can be a bit annoying that you mostly need to survive the midgame, and everyone aims for the same few minions to get through. If you don't find them, you usually have little hope in developing any kind of strategy for the lategame.
We'll get some changes coming later today, so maybe some of it will be addressed already.
Make an Amalgam with divine shield that just isn't mech...?
Kinda hard to say, but mech seems OP atm because of the shieds.
AFK is strong, sure, but I feel that heroes who can give you extra stats in the early game are even stronger. Rat King, Brann, Yogg, Daryl or even Sindragosa can beat a turn 3 AFK with a bit of luck, while still being higher in the Tavern upgrade race AND having their Health intact.
1. We shouldn't take damage for first 3 turns - at those turns we don't have too much choice and we are starting to game with a penalty for not playing certain heroes.
2. opponent rotation should be better yesterday I was playing afkay and my opponent faced me 3 times in the game and unfortunate guy lost the game and took 8th place.
3. They should adjust the tiers some minions are too good such as lightfang you can easily reach tier 5 and obtain it. Amalgam should be tier 4
4. instead of nerfing some heroes they should buff bad ones because nerfing limits the strategy while buffing improves the amount of strategies you can but into game.
nerf lightfang.
take garbage like boogey monster out of tt5
put cobalt in tt4
get rid of finley and entirely rework him.
don't allow someone to play against the same person before playing all the other available opponents. Too many games are lost by how many times you have to play AFKay after turn 3 before cut to top 4.
- Add Unstable Ghoul at tier 2 for a divine shield removale tech option.
- Move Nightmare Amalgam to tier 3.
- Move Cobolt Guardian to tier 4
- Maybe move Lightfang to tier 6, but there is already a rumour of a nerf to 2/1 buffs instead of 2/2.
- I would like to nerf murloc somehow, but I don't know how to since their late game is by far the strongest if they get the gentle megasaur unless you are nerfarien or if they ad Unstable Ghoul as a tech option.
- make some of the bad random heropowers targetable - like Pyramid head or what he is called - if you could choose which one to buff it would be a bit better - George got the ability to target his divine shield buff, why can't other do the same.
Jaraxxus feels especially bad to play or play against. If you know he's in the hero pool you might just buy all the good late game demons like Voidlord (which he is probably going for) on purpose. Considering that people would pick up multiple Wrath Weaver early on they are likely to be at low health at this point. And demons are like beasts, they become nothing but a huge pile of stats which tend to get destroyed by boards of mechs (say hi to divine shield), murlocs (say hi to poisonous) or menagerie (the ultimate late game strategy unless you're up vs. huge murlocs with all adaptations).
AFK is annoying if she high-rolls on turn 3 but otherwise very manageable and since she needs to keep up with TT upgrades before buying additional units it could even lead to her going out soon enough.
Pyramad, Gallywix and Wagtoggle are clearly underpowered and need to be rotated ASAP. Also, Sir Finley is basically a worse Brann so they might as well redesign him. Putricide is kinda cool if you get Cave Hydra quick enough but with the abundance of taunt minions with divine shield his power level decreases the longer the round goes on.
Sindragosa is kind of a trap. Yea, you might obtain two largely grown one star units on turn 3 but that's it. During the mid game you don't want to freeze the minions, especially during those turns when you've upgraded the tavern tier.
Regarding minion pool, some clearly don't belong in their respective tiers. It feels bad to see Ironhide Direhorn, Strongshell Scavenger and Mechano-Egg after getting a triple on TT4. On the other hand, if you're being offered Lightfang it's basically gg for the rest of the round which doesn't feel satisfying.
They actually addressed this already. We won’t see other people’s board but what tribe they used the most. For example someone has mostly mechs you’ll see a mech icon next to their hero :) i think that’s a good way to do this. Seeing whole boards is too much information imo
Someone is doing right with Queen Wagtoggle seeing her high winrate.
Demons definitely need a good T6 and most of the T6 need to be move down a tier and add more strong T6 that isn't beast,deathrattle, and mech.
Vote for my Card Design Submission! I love this one!
I'd like to see some changes to how damage is calculated at the end of the turn, there can be some horrible rng involved where damage dealt is considerably more damage than what's deserved. Things that spawn from deathrattles are a huge reason for this so I think that anything that doesn't start on the board should only ever count for 1 damage at the end.
As for heroes, AFK is strong but certainly not the best, Brann and Deryl are both insanely powerful, but I'd rather see some of the unplayable heroes made better, I didn't pre-order so I only have the 2 hero choices for now and it's so often to see 2 terrible heroes and it feels pretty shitty when that happens, making it tough for me to get over 8k mmr when I have to pick between Putricide and Pyramid every other game. Those 2 heroes in particular would be considerably better if you could target the minion to get the buff, but for whatever reason they don't have any targetable hero powers in battlegrounds. Nefarian is one I'd like to see changed, divine shields are so important in battlegrounds and it's ridiculous that 1 hero can pretty much negate them entirely for 1 gold.
how to achieve balance, eh?
well, how about give everyone only 2/2s, remove every hero but one and let every minion fight simultaneously, enjoy!
Further suggestions: replace The Boogeymonster with Gruul and move the unit down to TT4 (seems more appropriate considering that Bolvar is TT4 as well). For now, Boogers gets outclassed by Crowd Favorite which is a TT3 unit.
Add Floating Watcher as a TT3 or TT4 unit. It has synergy with Weaver and demons are lacking mid game support.
Move Cobalt Guardian up to TT4, move Screwjank Clunker down to TT3.
Also, move Nightmare Amalgam up to TT3. 10 ouf of 10 games everyone is trying to get them ASAP to buff their creatures up to the usual 37/52 with bubble, taunt and poisonous. One of the main reasons why Lightfang builds are so overwhelmingly powerful. The game shouldn't devolve into "who gets minion X first?" That way it's still accessible to counter the pure mech, demon or beast boards (which usually consist of multiple huge minions).
In regards to AFK, I don't think the issue is her power level as a hero overall, but the disadvantage it can put the unlucky players who draw her turn 3 and 4. If you lose your first two rounds, then draw her turn three you are usually in the mid 20s and severely behind everyone else.
I think amalgam at three would work. It starts the buffs later and gives some thought to how you tier up, considering you tier to two on turn two 98% of the time. I would be nervous to get hit for more damage from surviving amalgams though. Lightfang should definitely move to 6. I think they could even do a bottom tier system, like when you tier up to six (which some heroes don't ever want to do) you don't see tier ones anymore. Making Pyramad and Finley target-able is enough to make them playable imo. Starting Patchwerk at 50 gives him room to play aggressively without the luxury of auto hitting top four every game. Ultimately, I would like to see lightfang and amalgam go so more tribes can be introduced.
In relation to taking more damage from Amalgam I just wanted to say that Amalgam rarely survives as it is often the minion with taunt that gets killed by your second, third or fourth minion depending on your setup.