Disclaimer: I know that the new HSBG meta is only about a day old. Rather than making a definitive THIS IS THE ABSOLUTELY TRUE BEST RANKING type of thread, I am hoping that this does more to promote discussion of the new heros, nerfs/buffs, and their place in the post-patch metagame. Also, keep in mind, with some good planning and card choices, you can win with any hero. Tier lists mostly serve to show which ones are easier to reach Top 4 and win with.
VERY STRONG CHOICES
The new metagame appears to be much faster with the buff to the Murloc tribe. These four heroes seem to have the strongest first few turns. Curator starts with an extra minion who can receive any buff. Yogg's hero power allows him to build buffed boards of multiple minions faster than most heroes. Sindragosa I am less sure of, but my early testing suggests that freezing the first 1-4 turns leads to very strong early board position.
Brann buffs his own boards, which is particularly useful with the multiple battle cry murlocs available in TT1 and TT2. A battlecry minion played on an empty board buffs itself. It also scales into the late game. It's possible he sits alone as the top hero in the game right now. I'm starting to think we may see him leave in December.
GOOD CHOICES
These Heroes are still good for the reasons they were good before the patch. AFKay was indirectly nerfed with Junkbot moving to TT5. But for the most part, she still ramps up well, with the same level of RNG that she had before. Nefarian's hero power is still cheap and let's you play the entire game without worrying about Divine Shields. Patchwerk is incredibly forgiving. And Rat King, while good, is slightly less good at the early game stuff as the above four heroes because it's more random.
I haven't had the most experience with him yet, but I think Dancin' Deryl falls here now. While I think I'd have considered him top tier before the patch, I suspect he can still be bullied by faster starts from the top tier heroes that go wider in the first few turns than he does.
PLAYABLE
Generally, these heroes scale into the late game well. They can, however, be bullied around in the early game by those strong heroes above, which places them lower on the list. A single good deathrattle-esque minion can absolutely carry Lich King further than he has any right to go. But, deathrattle is one of the tricker comps to take into the end game. The other heroes are econ-focused, and do similar things in slightly different ways. Again, this scales well, but are you alive that long?
I admit, this might be too high for George, and a lot of this is theorycrafting. Murlocs are much better, and George is the best way to stick divine shield on those little dudes (who turn into giant dudes). 4 is still A LOT to pay, and Nefarian is still popular. But I think George has a better shot now than he did before.
IF YOU'RE IN A PICKLE
These heroes are all playable, but flawed in some manner, much as they were before. Queen Wagtoggle is just a worse version than any of the tempo based heroes above. Shudderwock is worse than Brann the minion and now Brann the Hero. Akazam has an awesome ability in Ice Block...but that ability only really manifests itself when you make it to the very end stages of the match. IMO, Trade Prince and Bartendertron are weaker econ heroes than Toki, Elise, and AFKay, and econ heroes aren't as good as tempo ones.
I WOULD NOT PICK THESE HEROES
These Heroes were all considered among the worst before the patch, and I believe they still are for the same reasons. Patches is maybe slightly better now because of the focus on early game murlocs, but they scale out of range of 3 health pretty soon. Jaraxxus got some help, but he is still tied to the weakest comp in the game. When more/better demons are released, I could easily see Jaraxxus getting better.
I don't know what they were doing with Finley. First, spending gold on your hero power isn't usually the best play, you certainly don't want to do it multiple times. Second, the buff from the hero power is insignificant. Third, so many heroes do this buffing better and often for free. Fourth, often, you're spending gold only to buff a minion that you planned on selling. It's very possible that Finley is the absolute worst Hero in the game. His hero power is confused, offers almost no benefit, and is completely outclassed by someone like Brann or Daryl.
So what do you think? Again, this is not meant to be a gospel tier list. It is way too soon for any of that. I just wanted to get a nice discussion started.
I disagree woth sindragosa, she is. Not gray in the early game as to get any buff on your minions you can’t buy them until the following turn. She’s too slow and quite weak. I’ve played her twice and won’t again. Played against many who’ve picked her and they all finished in bottom 4.
Lord J isn’t a bottom tier either. He’s quite strong but you’re forced into demons to make use of him so he should probably be bumped up a tear.
Otherwise the list looks good, Bran has been stupidly good in my experience, I’ve been offered him three times and got one first and two seconds with him
Just won my 1st Sindragossa and i menaged to bounce from loosing streak and 3HP to win using Chadgar and allycat. For the love of a god pls dont pick her. If i need to do meme tier play to win with her you know its bad.
I think you overrate Elise and george. Elise seems like such a tempo loss; with a faster meta you can't get to tier six easily for the free bears, which seems to be her main point from what people say, and the HP seems useless earlygame. George... I can see why he's up, but bleh! Not convinced he's that high, but I do avoid him.
I'd move jaraxxus up a bit, along with azak- secret fellow. The latter holds on surprisingly well, probably playable. Also, Daryl to T1, still absurd; he seems good in my unskilled hands, and I know I'm not using him optimally. Have had success with LK, but barely - we're talking stabilizing on 2HP last game (LK HP on Kangor's apprentice FTW :P).
I disagree woth sindragosa, she is. Not gray in the early game as to get any buff on your minions you can’t buy them until the following turn. She’s too slow and quite weak. I’ve played her twice and won’t again. Played against many who’ve picked her and they all finished in bottom 4.
IDK. You buy minions and tech up as normal while freezing because freezing is free. Assuming you hit 1 or 2 decent minions to buff, it should carry you into the midgame in a good position. In the end game, it has little utility. Maybe people are getting too greedy? You just have to be a little greedy. 2 buffs is more than enough. I usually buy after 1.
I disagree woth sindragosa, she is. Not gray in the early game as to get any buff on your minions you can’t buy them until the following turn. She’s too slow and quite weak. I’ve played her twice and won’t again. Played against many who’ve picked her and they all finished in bottom 4.
IDK. You buy minions and tech up as normal while freezing because freezing is free. Assuming you hit 1 or 2 decent minions to buff, it should carry you into the midgame in a good position. In the end game, it has little utility. Maybe people are getting too greedy? You just have to be a little greedy. 2 buffs is more than enough. I usually buy after 1.
Yes she's a little rng we but most early game minions are fine to freeze so she actually had great early game
Sindragosa IMO isn't top tier. She's a bit above average IMO but that's about it. She does have a fairly powerful early game but it falls off harder than most of the top tier heroes. Once your board is established, her power becomes far less useful, garnering you an occasional yet often rare +1/+1 when you freeze a minion you needed for a triple and can't yet afford. Nefarian is much more suited to take her place as a top tier pick. One of the most useful hero powers in the game that scales exceedingly well into the late game where it almost single-handedly secures you top 4.
That's really my biggest disagreement. I think an argument could be made for A. F. Kay to maybe be Tier 1 as well but high end Tier 2 is probably fine for her. My reasoning behind this is based on how many times I've been forced to play a sub-par hero with horrible starter minion choices where you're literally pre-determined to lose Rounds 1 and 2 anyway, at which point you're effectively A. F. Kay anyway only instead of a Tier 3 and 4 minion, you get a crap Tier 1 minion alongside a crap hero power. (unless you were one of those silly people that purchase a minion on Turn 2, but we don't acknowledge those people!) :p
Those are just my personal opinions though. Overall, I think it's a solid tier list.
Sindragosa hero power is bad they should change it to Freeze a minion give +1/+1 at the end of your turn for one mana. you freeze the minion you want rest changes.
I like the look of Sindy, but not got to try. I'm confused on Elise, though - just faced an Elise at Tavern 3 with a tier six minion (the cleave mech). I thought Elise's HP gave minions from the same tier? I've seen Toki highroll into early sixes, but thought this one couldn't...
I like the look of Sindy, but not got to try. I'm confused on Elise, though - just faced an Elise at Tavern 3 with a tier six minion (the cleave mech). I thought Elise's HP gave minions from the same tier? I've seen Toki highroll into early sixes, but thought this one couldn't...
It's likely because they are using Elise's map to buy triple copies.
Sindragosa was really consistent for me, the ability to freeze turn on, follow up by a next turn level up tavern and freeze, allow you to buy next turn 2 minions with double buff, and if one of them is micro machine, o humunculos, this is really good, and secure the early game, and midgame for you, which usually get you to top 4, i don't think its a T1 hero, but in my experience its good. Bran its the best one from new heroes.
I think you overrate Elise and george. Elise seems like such a tempo loss; with a faster meta you can't get to tier six easily for the free bears, which seems to be her main point from what people say, and the HP seems useless earlygame. George... I can see why he's up, but bleh! Not convinced he's that high, but I do avoid him.
I'd move jaraxxus up a bit, along with azak- secret fellow. The latter holds on surprisingly well, probably playable. Also, Daryl to T1, still absurd; he seems good in my unskilled hands, and I know I'm not using him optimally. Have had success with LK, but barely - we're talking stabilizing on 2HP last game (LK HP on Kangor's apprentice FTW :P).
How is elise a tempo loss? It's just buying a minion. It's not tempo gain, certainly. But I don't see how it's a loss.
I think you overrate Elise and george. Elise seems like such a tempo loss; with a faster meta you can't get to tier six easily for the free bears, which seems to be her main point from what people say, and the HP seems useless earlygame. George... I can see why he's up, but bleh! Not convinced he's that high, but I do avoid him.
I'd move jaraxxus up a bit, along with azak- secret fellow. The latter holds on surprisingly well, probably playable. Also, Daryl to T1, still absurd; he seems good in my unskilled hands, and I know I'm not using him optimally. Have had success with LK, but barely - we're talking stabilizing on 2HP last game (LK HP on Kangor's apprentice FTW :P).
How is elise a tempo loss? It's just buying a minion. It's not tempo gain, certainly. But I don't see how it's a loss.
Elise is actually stronger than everyone is giving credit for; however early it's a bit of a drag. But once you get to level 4/5/6, being able to get a minion from that pool no matter what is pretty good, especially 5/6 because the pools get smaller and can benefit your type more; however you have to be willing to forgo some turns and upgrade. I've honestly finished top 4/1 with my elise map from level 2 and sometimes even 3 in my hand because you just keep upgrading and get those stronger cards. However, with the recent murloc buff it's a risky strategy but it's how you have to play Elise.
Also people sleep on George but divine shields are EXTREMELY strong, especially if no one picks Nef. People undervalue a mech package with DS with a couple/triple Bolvar. Being able to clear 3 minions of your opponents board without sacrificing any health is amazing and even better to clear a Poisonous without losing a minion is great. His hero power is strong (overcosted a little) so if you wanted to run other types with Bolvar it's possible later on. And again with the buff to murlocs, filling an early board, putting poisonous on, and DSing them is great.
I like the look of Sindy, but not got to try. I'm confused on Elise, though - just faced an Elise at Tavern 3 with a tier six minion (the cleave mech). I thought Elise's HP gave minions from the same tier? I've seen Toki highroll into early sixes, but thought this one couldn't...
It's likely because they are using Elise's map to buy triple copies.
Triples give you your tier+1, don't they? So at tavern Tier 3, that gives tavern tier four reward. Not tier six. Just heavily affects her viability if she can get higher tier stuff.
As for her being a tempo loss, she isn't directly, though the early pushes can cause a loss of tempo. Particularly with the early maps, no guarantee of anything even vaguely synergistic, though, so 3 mana, get something bad feels.... bad. People seem to do well with her, though, so I'm probably out of the loop :P
Triples give you your tier+1, don't they? So at tavern Tier 3, that gives tavern tier four reward. Not tier six. Just heavily affects her viability if she can get higher tier stuff.
As for her being a tempo loss, she isn't directly, though the early pushes can cause a loss of tempo. Particularly with the early maps, no guarantee of anything even vaguely synergistic, though, so 3 mana, get something bad feels.... bad. People seem to do well with her, though, so I'm probably out of the loop :P
But if you save a, for example, a TT2 map, you can use it later in the game (Like when you are in TT5) to combine with other TT2 on the board or offered in the shop, since the shop offers a variety of tiered minions.
Triples give you your tier+1, don't they? So at tavern Tier 3, that gives tavern tier four reward. Not tier six. Just heavily affects her viability if she can get higher tier stuff.
As for her being a tempo loss, she isn't directly, though the early pushes can cause a loss of tempo. Particularly with the early maps, no guarantee of anything even vaguely synergistic, though, so 3 mana, get something bad feels.... bad. People seem to do well with her, though, so I'm probably out of the loop :P
But if you save a, for example, a TT2 map, you can use it later in the game (Like when you are in TT5) to combine with other TT2 on the board or offered in the shop, since the shop offers a variety of tiered minions.
Yeah, that makes sense for good uses for her; I'll have to try her again at some point. My question about having a T6 minion at tavern tier 3 stands, though, if she can do that with her maps, then she's OP.
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Disclaimer: I know that the new HSBG meta is only about a day old. Rather than making a definitive THIS IS THE ABSOLUTELY TRUE BEST RANKING type of thread, I am hoping that this does more to promote discussion of the new heros, nerfs/buffs, and their place in the post-patch metagame. Also, keep in mind, with some good planning and card choices, you can win with any hero. Tier lists mostly serve to show which ones are easier to reach Top 4 and win with.
VERY STRONG CHOICES
The new metagame appears to be much faster with the buff to the Murloc tribe. These four heroes seem to have the strongest first few turns. Curator starts with an extra minion who can receive any buff. Yogg's hero power allows him to build buffed boards of multiple minions faster than most heroes. Sindragosa I am less sure of, but my early testing suggests that freezing the first 1-4 turns leads to very strong early board position.
Brann buffs his own boards, which is particularly useful with the multiple battle cry murlocs available in TT1 and TT2. A battlecry minion played on an empty board buffs itself. It also scales into the late game. It's possible he sits alone as the top hero in the game right now. I'm starting to think we may see him leave in December.
GOOD CHOICES
These Heroes are still good for the reasons they were good before the patch. AFKay was indirectly nerfed with Junkbot moving to TT5. But for the most part, she still ramps up well, with the same level of RNG that she had before. Nefarian's hero power is still cheap and let's you play the entire game without worrying about Divine Shields. Patchwerk is incredibly forgiving. And Rat King, while good, is slightly less good at the early game stuff as the above four heroes because it's more random.
I haven't had the most experience with him yet, but I think Dancin' Deryl falls here now. While I think I'd have considered him top tier before the patch, I suspect he can still be bullied by faster starts from the top tier heroes that go wider in the first few turns than he does.
PLAYABLE
Generally, these heroes scale into the late game well. They can, however, be bullied around in the early game by those strong heroes above, which places them lower on the list. A single good deathrattle-esque minion can absolutely carry Lich King further than he has any right to go. But, deathrattle is one of the tricker comps to take into the end game. The other heroes are econ-focused, and do similar things in slightly different ways. Again, this scales well, but are you alive that long?
I admit, this might be too high for George, and a lot of this is theorycrafting. Murlocs are much better, and George is the best way to stick divine shield on those little dudes (who turn into giant dudes). 4 is still A LOT to pay, and Nefarian is still popular. But I think George has a better shot now than he did before.
IF YOU'RE IN A PICKLE
These heroes are all playable, but flawed in some manner, much as they were before. Queen Wagtoggle is just a worse version than any of the tempo based heroes above. Shudderwock is worse than Brann the minion and now Brann the Hero. Akazam has an awesome ability in Ice Block...but that ability only really manifests itself when you make it to the very end stages of the match. IMO, Trade Prince and Bartendertron are weaker econ heroes than Toki, Elise, and AFKay, and econ heroes aren't as good as tempo ones.
I WOULD NOT PICK THESE HEROES
These Heroes were all considered among the worst before the patch, and I believe they still are for the same reasons. Patches is maybe slightly better now because of the focus on early game murlocs, but they scale out of range of 3 health pretty soon. Jaraxxus got some help, but he is still tied to the weakest comp in the game. When more/better demons are released, I could easily see Jaraxxus getting better.
I don't know what they were doing with Finley. First, spending gold on your hero power isn't usually the best play, you certainly don't want to do it multiple times. Second, the buff from the hero power is insignificant. Third, so many heroes do this buffing better and often for free. Fourth, often, you're spending gold only to buff a minion that you planned on selling. It's very possible that Finley is the absolute worst Hero in the game. His hero power is confused, offers almost no benefit, and is completely outclassed by someone like Brann or Daryl.
So what do you think? Again, this is not meant to be a gospel tier list. It is way too soon for any of that. I just wanted to get a nice discussion started.
I disagree woth sindragosa, she is. Not gray in the early game as to get any buff on your minions you can’t buy them until the following turn. She’s too slow and quite weak. I’ve played her twice and won’t again. Played against many who’ve picked her and they all finished in bottom 4.
Lord J isn’t a bottom tier either. He’s quite strong but you’re forced into demons to make use of him so he should probably be bumped up a tear.
Otherwise the list looks good, Bran has been stupidly good in my experience, I’ve been offered him three times and got one first and two seconds with him
I think afk is stronger than sindragosa and rag is at least 1 tier up but I agree with most of it
Favorite Cards: 1. Lord Jaraxxus | 2. Malygos| 3. Edwin VanCleef | 4. Zephrys the Great| 5. Deathwing
Just won my 1st Sindragossa and i menaged to bounce from loosing streak and 3HP to win using Chadgar and allycat. For the love of a god pls dont pick her. If i need to do meme tier play to win with her you know its bad.
Jaraxxus is actually fine now. His hero power is very strong both in early and late game.
I agree, for me Jaraxxus is auto-top4 if you aren't extremely unlucky (not like pre-buff "if you are extremely lucky")
Finley is soo bad.. maybe if his HP was 0 gold or at least let you choose a minion (in comparison with Deryl he's garbage)
Elise is nothing special for me and ultra boring to play (I like Toki more)
Brann is OP until the midgame - can easily run out of steam in the late game (if you are me :p)
Also RIP Lich Baz'hial and her unique game plan - it was always challenge
Lich King is my new dark horse - I like to play around his HP
Mimsy Were The Borogoves
I think you overrate Elise and george. Elise seems like such a tempo loss; with a faster meta you can't get to tier six easily for the free bears, which seems to be her main point from what people say, and the HP seems useless earlygame. George... I can see why he's up, but bleh! Not convinced he's that high, but I do avoid him.
I'd move jaraxxus up a bit, along with azak- secret fellow. The latter holds on surprisingly well, probably playable. Also, Daryl to T1, still absurd; he seems good in my unskilled hands, and I know I'm not using him optimally. Have had success with LK, but barely - we're talking stabilizing on 2HP last game (LK HP on Kangor's apprentice FTW :P).
IDK. You buy minions and tech up as normal while freezing because freezing is free. Assuming you hit 1 or 2 decent minions to buff, it should carry you into the midgame in a good position. In the end game, it has little utility. Maybe people are getting too greedy? You just have to be a little greedy. 2 buffs is more than enough. I usually buy after 1.
Yes she's a little rng we but most early game minions are fine to freeze so she actually had great early game
My last 4 Shudderwock runs is 3 first place and one 2nd place. Playing pogo and/or murlocs the whole while.
Sindragosa IMO isn't top tier. She's a bit above average IMO but that's about it. She does have a fairly powerful early game but it falls off harder than most of the top tier heroes. Once your board is established, her power becomes far less useful, garnering you an occasional yet often rare +1/+1 when you freeze a minion you needed for a triple and can't yet afford. Nefarian is much more suited to take her place as a top tier pick. One of the most useful hero powers in the game that scales exceedingly well into the late game where it almost single-handedly secures you top 4.
That's really my biggest disagreement. I think an argument could be made for A. F. Kay to maybe be Tier 1 as well but high end Tier 2 is probably fine for her. My reasoning behind this is based on how many times I've been forced to play a sub-par hero with horrible starter minion choices where you're literally pre-determined to lose Rounds 1 and 2 anyway, at which point you're effectively A. F. Kay anyway only instead of a Tier 3 and 4 minion, you get a crap Tier 1 minion alongside a crap hero power. (unless you were one of those silly people that purchase a minion on Turn 2, but we don't acknowledge those people!) :p
Those are just my personal opinions though. Overall, I think it's a solid tier list.
Sindragosa hero power is bad they should change it to Freeze a minion give +1/+1 at the end of your turn for one mana. you freeze the minion you want rest changes.
I like the look of Sindy, but not got to try. I'm confused on Elise, though - just faced an Elise at Tavern 3 with a tier six minion (the cleave mech). I thought Elise's HP gave minions from the same tier? I've seen Toki highroll into early sixes, but thought this one couldn't...
It's likely because they are using Elise's map to buy triple copies.
Sindragosa was really consistent for me, the ability to freeze turn on, follow up by a next turn level up tavern and freeze, allow you to buy next turn 2 minions with double buff, and if one of them is micro machine, o humunculos, this is really good, and secure the early game, and midgame for you, which usually get you to top 4, i don't think its a T1 hero, but in my experience its good. Bran its the best one from new heroes.
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How is elise a tempo loss? It's just buying a minion.
It's not tempo gain, certainly. But I don't see how it's a loss.
Elise is actually stronger than everyone is giving credit for; however early it's a bit of a drag. But once you get to level 4/5/6, being able to get a minion from that pool no matter what is pretty good, especially 5/6 because the pools get smaller and can benefit your type more; however you have to be willing to forgo some turns and upgrade. I've honestly finished top 4/1 with my elise map from level 2 and sometimes even 3 in my hand because you just keep upgrading and get those stronger cards. However, with the recent murloc buff it's a risky strategy but it's how you have to play Elise.
Also people sleep on George but divine shields are EXTREMELY strong, especially if no one picks Nef. People undervalue a mech package with DS with a couple/triple Bolvar. Being able to clear 3 minions of your opponents board without sacrificing any health is amazing and even better to clear a Poisonous without losing a minion is great. His hero power is strong (overcosted a little) so if you wanted to run other types with Bolvar it's possible later on. And again with the buff to murlocs, filling an early board, putting poisonous on, and DSing them is great.
Weekly Card Design Competition 10.15
Triples give you your tier+1, don't they? So at tavern Tier 3, that gives tavern tier four reward. Not tier six. Just heavily affects her viability if she can get higher tier stuff.
As for her being a tempo loss, she isn't directly, though the early pushes can cause a loss of tempo. Particularly with the early maps, no guarantee of anything even vaguely synergistic, though, so 3 mana, get something bad feels.... bad. People seem to do well with her, though, so I'm probably out of the loop :P
But if you save a, for example, a TT2 map, you can use it later in the game (Like when you are in TT5) to combine with other TT2 on the board or offered in the shop, since the shop offers a variety of tiered minions.
Yeah, that makes sense for good uses for her; I'll have to try her again at some point. My question about having a T6 minion at tavern tier 3 stands, though, if she can do that with her maps, then she's OP.