Whenever/After - One power triggered by the start of an action - the other triggered by the end. "Whenever" minions include Questing Adventurer, Hobgoblin, and Mana Wyrm. The "After" minions are Knife Juggler and Wild Pyromancer.
Summon vs Play - "Play" refers to the action of playing a card from your hand and paying the mana-cost, while "Summon" refers to a minion entering the board. So all "Played" minions are "Summoned", but not all "Summoned" minions are "Played". Example: Hobgoblin - works on a Wisp you play from your hand, but doesn't work on Boom Bots summoned by Dr. Balanced.
Imp Gang Boss/Dragon Egg/Grim Patron vs Swipe/Explosive Shot - One of the more pressing issue in BRM's release is the interaction between these cards. Currently, one Swipe will kill Imp Gang Boss and the spawned Imp. Blizzard has confirmed this is not an intended interaction. These spells are being carried out in Two-steps, despite the description reading "And" which implies simultaneous events. Ben Brode has stated that they are looking to change it so that the spell effects are carried out at the same time.
Minion Placed on Board is the First Step - Some people have said that Battlecry is the FIRST thing that happens you play a minion, which isn't entirely accurate. It's important to note that a Minion is considered on the board as soon as you play it, followed by the Battlecry. Example: Black Knight on a Taunted Sylvanas will result in Black Knight being stolen. Even though Black Knight hasn't fully resolved yet, it is already a valid target for Sylvanas to steal.
This was my first attempt at a "Rules and Interactions" series so it might be a bit rough around the edges - please let me know if you have any feedback for improvements. Rules are a slippery topic without an official rulebook, so at times it is hard to tell what is intended and what is a bug.
Hearthstone is still a relatively new game that prides itself on having simple rules and easiness to learn. I don't expect to see any official rulebook anytime soon - so until then, these subtle interactions is up to the community to figure out. As more and more content is released, I expect Blizzard will crack down on the inconsistent card texts.
Hope you all enjoyed it, let me know if you guys want more puzzles, more indepth explanations, or feature inconsistent interactions.
3 correct, 5 wrong. Argh I thought I already knew how the game works! Anyway this is a nice puzzle and I think this should be spread around to help newbies and pros improve.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
My answers in Italics. Then my spoiler covered response after lookin gup the answers.
1: Yes because juggler works 'after' a summon, thus he triggers after MCT lands, which is when Juggler is on the other side.
WOOT ,got it right!
2: 7/7. Rager triggers before he lands. Buzzard triggers after he lands. Thus 7/7 then you get a card.
MOTHER #*($*#$ I forgot 'whenever you' = at the start. Thus buzzard technically fires at the start of the summon.. not 'after'. UGG.
3: Auctionerr triggers 'on play' which is before the spell goes off. Thus a card is pulled. Quick shot then acts, notices the card, then doesn't draw. 1 card total.
I caught it here though :D Woot.
4. No. Both gnome and chow trigger at the same time. ALL triggers must go before death is checked. Rexxar either goes from 3 to 0 to 5 or 3 to 8 to 5 depending on which was dropped first IIRC, but either way, he lives.
I'm correct, though I believe my full explaination is correct. If Chow was played first then rex doesn't even drop to 0. Doesn't matter though, he lives either way. I'm just being mean.
5. He does. Trick is that Rexxar dies with the Chow. Thus by the time deathrattle activates Rexxar is deemed 'dead' and game is lost.
WOOT! Remember that deathrattles CANNOT happen before deaths and all deaths happen in sync. In the last case, only Chow and Gnome died in sync, so rex lived to see the deathrattles. This time, Chow and Rex die in sync, so Rex is 'DEAD' before deathrattles trigger
6:Juggler. The minion is summoned during hte spell, triggering juggler. Pyro can't trigger until after it's all over.
WOOT.
7: Depends, whoever goes first. IIRC top secret was the first played, so in this case Rager is frozen, then triggers explosive. Rager lives.
Woot here too. And finally learned WHY explosive still triggers when, if the reverse secret occurs, only freezing triggers.
8. Minions summoned by battlecry actually land first since battlecry happens before 'landing'. Thus 1 bomb gets the SoJ buff.
WOOT though interesting that the inconsistency is there. That does need to be settled.
Btw, I would argue that Knife doesn't go before SoJ. I'd argue that it's the same thing. You can see it with Snipe: snipe would bring a minion to 0 health but SoJ would buff it back up anyway. That shows that the two are on the same trigger which is why death can't check in between them. Thus I'd say that Juggler and SoJ go a the same time, despite what the animations show, which means SoJ is going on 'after summon'.
Results!
7 out of 8 and I really should've known the buzzard one. This is why I chime in on HS mechanics. ;)
Though I'll say they should probably remove the "whenever" and "after" and just decide on one. As soon as a minion is played, it becomes on the board and thus anything that happens next is "after" the minion is played even though they separated it into two secret subphases.
Answers
Notes
Whenever/After - One power triggered by the start of an action - the other triggered by the end. "Whenever" minions include Questing Adventurer, Hobgoblin, and Mana Wyrm. The "After" minions are Knife Juggler and Wild Pyromancer.
Summon vs Play - "Play" refers to the action of playing a card from your hand and paying the mana-cost, while "Summon" refers to a minion entering the board. So all "Played" minions are "Summoned", but not all "Summoned" minions are "Played". Example: Hobgoblin - works on a Wisp you play from your hand, but doesn't work on Boom Bots summoned by Dr. Balanced.
Imp Gang Boss/Dragon Egg/Grim Patron vs Swipe/Explosive Shot - One of the more pressing issue in BRM's release is the interaction between these cards. Currently, one Swipe will kill Imp Gang Boss and the spawned Imp. Blizzard has confirmed this is not an intended interaction. These spells are being carried out in Two-steps, despite the description reading "And" which implies simultaneous events. Ben Brode has stated that they are looking to change it so that the spell effects are carried out at the same time.
Minion Placed on Board is the First Step - Some people have said that Battlecry is the FIRST thing that happens you play a minion, which isn't entirely accurate. It's important to note that a Minion is considered on the board as soon as you play it, followed by the Battlecry. Example: Black Knight on a Taunted Sylvanas will result in Black Knight being stolen. Even though Black Knight hasn't fully resolved yet, it is already a valid target for Sylvanas to steal.
This was my first attempt at a "Rules and Interactions" series so it might be a bit rough around the edges - please let me know if you have any feedback for improvements. Rules are a slippery topic without an official rulebook, so at times it is hard to tell what is intended and what is a bug.
Hearthstone is still a relatively new game that prides itself on having simple rules and easiness to learn. I don't expect to see any official rulebook anytime soon - so until then, these subtle interactions is up to the community to figure out. As more and more content is released, I expect Blizzard will crack down on the inconsistent card texts.
Hope you all enjoyed it, let me know if you guys want more puzzles, more indepth explanations, or feature inconsistent interactions.
-DisguisedToast
Do you have a source for Ben's comment? I'm wondering if it will affect Poison Seeds or not.
Edit: Probably not. It would end up too powerful if the full spell effect took place before any death rattles.
3 correct, 5 wrong. Argh I thought I already knew how the game works! Anyway this is a nice puzzle and I think this should be spread around to help newbies and pros improve.
If you look closely, you can see this is a signature and not a comment. Why are you reading? Stop reading this. Did you read this too? Dang you must like reading.
Very interesting, especially the SoJ one
My answers in Italics. Then my spoiler covered response after lookin gup the answers.
1: Yes because juggler works 'after' a summon, thus he triggers after MCT lands, which is when Juggler is on the other side.
WOOT ,got it right!
2: 7/7. Rager triggers before he lands. Buzzard triggers after he lands. Thus 7/7 then you get a card.
MOTHER #*($*#$ I forgot 'whenever you' = at the start. Thus buzzard technically fires at the start of the summon.. not 'after'. UGG.
3: Auctionerr triggers 'on play' which is before the spell goes off. Thus a card is pulled. Quick shot then acts, notices the card, then doesn't draw. 1 card total.
I caught it here though :D Woot.
4. No. Both gnome and chow trigger at the same time. ALL triggers must go before death is checked.
Rexxar either goes from 3 to 0 to 5 or 3 to 8 to 5 depending on which was dropped first IIRC, but either way, he lives.
I'm correct, though I believe my full explaination is correct. If Chow was played first then rex doesn't even drop to 0. Doesn't matter though, he lives either way. I'm just being mean.
5. He does. Trick is that Rexxar dies with the Chow. Thus by the time deathrattle activates Rexxar is deemed 'dead' and game is lost.
WOOT! Remember that deathrattles CANNOT happen before deaths and all deaths happen in sync. In the last case, only Chow and Gnome died in sync, so rex lived to see the deathrattles. This time, Chow and Rex die in sync, so Rex is 'DEAD' before deathrattles trigger
6:Juggler. The minion is summoned during hte spell, triggering juggler. Pyro can't trigger until after it's all over.
WOOT.
7: Depends, whoever goes first. IIRC top secret was the first played, so in this case Rager is frozen, then triggers explosive. Rager lives.
Woot here too. And finally learned WHY explosive still triggers when, if the reverse secret occurs, only freezing triggers.
8. Minions summoned by battlecry actually land first since battlecry happens before 'landing'. Thus 1 bomb gets the SoJ buff.
WOOT though interesting that the inconsistency is there. That does need to be settled.
Btw, I would argue that Knife doesn't go before SoJ. I'd argue that it's the same thing. You can see it with Snipe: snipe would bring a minion to 0 health but SoJ would buff it back up anyway. That shows that the two are on the same trigger which is why death can't check in between them. Thus I'd say that Juggler and SoJ go a the same time, despite what the animations show, which means SoJ is going on 'after summon'.
Results!
7 out of 8 and I really should've known the buzzard one. This is why I chime in on HS mechanics. ;)
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
https://twitter.com/bdbrode/status/587843634101231616
Confirmed that swipe shouldn't be doing that to gang boss.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.
Thanks!
Thanks for the feedback guys - I'll see if I can get a video version of this going, might be easier to explain.
Great job on this.
Though I'll say they should probably remove the "whenever" and "after" and just decide on one.
As soon as a minion is played, it becomes on the board and thus anything that happens next is "after" the minion is played even though they separated it into two secret subphases.
Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice - Sneak Review! http://www.thepoxbox.com/challenges.php?id=batmanvsuperman
Your stuff is amazing!
And old one but honestly, This does need to not go away. I still feel it's a great way to test how well you know how the mechanics work in the game.
One does not simply walk into Mordor,
unless they want to be the best they can be.