I remember back in the day when Ben Brode was still lead designer, he stated in an interview that they had no other option than introducing the coin. I agree
While the coin might sometimes feel unfair, the fact is that the player going first is still favoured to win. The coin and the extra card still leaves the player going second at a disadvantage, but it's the closest the Hearthstone team has managed to get to an equal winrate. Do a quick google search, and you'll find several articles/discussions about this topic.
The first player has the advantage if he has a 1-mana cost card to play on turn 1, or else, he plays nothing and it feels unfair. He has to wait for more turns to do some kind of Combo.
The second player with the coin has more options to play the 1-mana cost card or 2-mana cost card or any kind of Combo he wants. If he manages to do so, he gains the tempo, and usually, whoever gets the tempo first has more chances to win.
Ehhh.. I dunno. I've never really felt like the person on coin has a big advantage. If player going first has no turn 1 play, then they are behind for sure, but there are so many big, swingy cards that it never seems like it makes or breaks the game.
Even if I put 1 drops in my deck and I go first, I may not always have it in my hand at turn 1. *shrug*
I don't mind the mana that the player gains, it is kind of fair. But I really sometimes don't know about it counting as a spell... that you can use it for synergies etc. Should be just card in your hand that is like ghost card.
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"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
Spell sinergy mage and rogue from all archetypes and classes are the only ones always want be second, anything else prefer start the game, this is how much "overpowered" the coin is.
In Magic The Gathering the game don't have coin for the second everyone want to start the game, only one draw fase less not compensate the massive advantage going first provide at all, a coin in MTG will be a very nice addition.
In standard, right now, the coin is less of a problem or controversial than its ever been imo.
The game (while not having the purest of agro decks or the past) is arguable in its overall fastest state with matches being the shortest ever on average. When was the last time anyone experienced a 40+ minute match in standard?
My point: going first has always been the advantage and in the current state of short matches, going first is an even bigger advantage producing t4/5 wins consistently in the current standard meta. The coin is no more than a token that feels bad, even as a spell right now it does not have much added value. Maybe in days of yore for mage quest and Uber rogue combos but that argument has no validity in the current standard meta, arena or duels.
TL:DR the advantage of the coin doesn't exist in the current meta and probably won't cha get in the future given the direction of the game.
So back in the infancy of Hearthstone, it was perfectly balanced. Nowadays, I think it’s just OP due to spell synergy. I think they just need to make it not count as a spell and honestly that should be good. Either that, or make it “Gain one additional mana crystal NEXT turn only.” Delaying it one turn still provides benefit to those going second, but makes it less of an immediate impact. Maybe a combination of both? Those are the only real things I can think of for changes.
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-It's better to have something you don't need, than to need something you don't have
When you say "too good" do you by any chance mean "not good enough" ? If so then yes, the coin is way too good.
Some decks can abuse the coin because it's a 0 mana spell, but for most decks it's just objectively worse than going first, and has only gotten worse with every expansion cycle.
And sometimes you draw poorly and effectively can't make good use of the coin until way later in the game, basically putting you at an increasingly large disadvantage against your opponent every turn, for the entire game. On turn 1 they have a 1 mana advantage over you, 2 mana on turn 2, up to turn 10 for a total of 55 mana advantage througout the game + 10 mana every turn past this point, and you're left with a miserable 1 mana advantage for 1 turn as compensation. The whole system is trash and needs to be reworked.
If they wanna keep the coin going forward with unstoppable powercreep, second player should get a coin every other turn (1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9) and it shouldn't be a spell that mimicks class identity cards like Innervate and benefits from spell synergy, making some classes actually benefit sometimes from going second despite the huge mana disadvantage throughout the game, while other classes struggle with it because they can't generate additional value or synergy from spells and only deal with the disadvantage of going second. All the while entire archetypes, generally slower ones, control or combo decks that don't just throw cards out of hand on curve every turn, are being left out not because big cards are trash like everyone believe, but because they simply can't keep up with on curve fast plays from an opponent going first, no matter how unbalanced and powercreeped are your timmy cards, they are not going to keep up with 55 mana ramp and you will still lose to a 2014 vanilla aggro deck if you go second.
When was the last time anyone experienced a 40+ minute match in standard?
Me yesterday when I got bored of aggro mirrors and tried to build a pure anti aggro OTK warrior deck that would easily put dirt in the eyes of aggro matchups, only to remember too late that matchmaking is a bitch and I would only encounter quest priests for the next 2 hours. That is, two quest priests to be very specific.
Not trying to invalidate anything you said, I'm just taking this opportunity to speak out against the bitch.
Hey there,
ive played thousand of games recently, and i feel like the coin is just too good.
Its not just the coin, you get 1 extra card in the beginning. Since there are so many otk/combo decks out there, its very good.
Do you feel like there needs to be a change on this or im just talking shit?
thanks for voting!
You can forgive, but never forget.
I remember back in the day when Ben Brode was still lead designer, he stated in an interview that they had no other option than introducing the coin. I agree
Does some site like Tempo Storm or hsreplay gather this kind of data?
While the coin might sometimes feel unfair, the fact is that the player going first is still favoured to win. The coin and the extra card still leaves the player going second at a disadvantage, but it's the closest the Hearthstone team has managed to get to an equal winrate. Do a quick google search, and you'll find several articles/discussions about this topic.
The first player has the advantage if he has a 1-mana cost card to play on turn 1, or else, he plays nothing and it feels unfair. He has to wait for more turns to do some kind of Combo.
The second player with the coin has more options to play the 1-mana cost card or 2-mana cost card or any kind of Combo he wants. If he manages to do so, he gains the tempo, and usually, whoever gets the tempo first has more chances to win.
Ehhh.. I dunno. I've never really felt like the person on coin has a big advantage. If player going first has no turn 1 play, then they are behind for sure, but there are so many big, swingy cards that it never seems like it makes or breaks the game.
Even if I put 1 drops in my deck and I go first, I may not always have it in my hand at turn 1. *shrug*
I don't mind the mana that the player gains, it is kind of fair. But I really sometimes don't know about it counting as a spell... that you can use it for synergies etc. Should be just card in your hand that is like ghost card.
"Minion to minion the basic of all combats, only a fool trusts his win to an OTK"
The coin is fine, but it shouldn’t be considered a spell. This is a change that should’ve been made years ago.
I really miss the Avatar of the Coin. ^^
What is this Shadow of Nothing-nonsense-looking card? :P
Was that a real thing at one point?
It really depends on the deck I guess. I had several decks in which I really felt being on an advantage while having the coin.
Spell sinergy mage and rogue from all archetypes and classes are the only ones always want be second, anything else prefer start the game, this is how much "overpowered" the coin is.
In Magic The Gathering the game don't have coin for the second everyone want to start the game, only one draw fase less not compensate the massive advantage going first provide at all, a coin in MTG will be a very nice addition.
Yeah, you got the minion, if you're not having the coin, in the Alpha, I think.
https://hearthstone.fandom.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Coin
In standard, right now, the coin is less of a problem or controversial than its ever been imo.
The game (while not having the purest of agro decks or the past) is arguable in its overall fastest state with matches being the shortest ever on average. When was the last time anyone experienced a 40+ minute match in standard?
My point: going first has always been the advantage and in the current state of short matches, going first is an even bigger advantage producing t4/5 wins consistently in the current standard meta. The coin is no more than a token that feels bad, even as a spell right now it does not have much added value. Maybe in days of yore for mage quest and Uber rogue combos but that argument has no validity in the current standard meta, arena or duels.
TL:DR the advantage of the coin doesn't exist in the current meta and probably won't cha get in the future given the direction of the game.
So back in the infancy of Hearthstone, it was perfectly balanced. Nowadays, I think it’s just OP due to spell synergy. I think they just need to make it not count as a spell and honestly that should be good. Either that, or make it “Gain one additional mana crystal NEXT turn only.” Delaying it one turn still provides benefit to those going second, but makes it less of an immediate impact. Maybe a combination of both? Those are the only real things I can think of for changes.
-It's better to have something you don't need, than to need something you don't have
Players that goes first have a higher win rate with any deck, so It's not powerful statistically
When you say "too good" do you by any chance mean "not good enough" ? If so then yes, the coin is way too good.
Some decks can abuse the coin because it's a 0 mana spell, but for most decks it's just objectively worse than going first, and has only gotten worse with every expansion cycle.
And sometimes you draw poorly and effectively can't make good use of the coin until way later in the game, basically putting you at an increasingly large disadvantage against your opponent every turn, for the entire game. On turn 1 they have a 1 mana advantage over you, 2 mana on turn 2, up to turn 10 for a total of 55 mana advantage througout the game + 10 mana every turn past this point, and you're left with a miserable 1 mana advantage for 1 turn as compensation. The whole system is trash and needs to be reworked.
If they wanna keep the coin going forward with unstoppable powercreep, second player should get a coin every other turn (1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - 9) and it shouldn't be a spell that mimicks class identity cards like Innervate and benefits from spell synergy, making some classes actually benefit sometimes from going second despite the huge mana disadvantage throughout the game, while other classes struggle with it because they can't generate additional value or synergy from spells and only deal with the disadvantage of going second. All the while entire archetypes, generally slower ones, control or combo decks that don't just throw cards out of hand on curve every turn, are being left out not because big cards are trash like everyone believe, but because they simply can't keep up with on curve fast plays from an opponent going first, no matter how unbalanced and powercreeped are your timmy cards, they are not going to keep up with 55 mana ramp and you will still lose to a 2014 vanilla aggro deck if you go second.
Simple answer: whether the coin is good or not is completely relative, just like everything else in life. :P
Me yesterday when I got bored of aggro mirrors and tried to build a pure anti aggro OTK warrior deck that would easily put dirt in the eyes of aggro matchups, only to remember too late that matchmaking is a bitch and I would only encounter quest priests for the next 2 hours. That is, two quest priests to be very specific.
Not trying to invalidate anything you said, I'm just taking this opportunity to speak out against the bitch.
Other than a quest priest game can't last much more than 10 to 15 minutes on the long side because you know, the quest...
So didn't happen mate.