My reasoning for this is simple. Original quests from un'goro were designed to take some time to complete. For example quest warrior, you wouldn't just fill your entire deck with low cost bad taunts just to get your reward as fast as possible, it simply wouldn't work, you needed an actual deck that could work without the quest, partly because of the quests design, but mostly because there weren't enough good cards to synergize with the quests. Now you do, you do fill your deck with taunts, get your reward on turn 5-6 and hope it's a good matchup, like all the other quests (sorry Seek Guidance you're hopeless and worthless).
So making them start in the opening hand made sense, because drawing the quest in the middle of the game meant you wouldn't ever complete it.
And quests have been like that for quite some time, but every time there is a new expansion, quests get better, and some expansions add new quests that are instantly good because they already have many expansions worth of synergy material. We now have access to so many good cards, that it has become the best strategy to go all in on quest synergy, every time. You wouldn't believe how good some of the meme quests like un'goro hunter have become over the years.
Now, especially in Wild, all quest decks are basically the quest + 29 synergy cards, regardless of how the deck performs without the quest, this is the new design going forward in Wild (it could be different in standard). And that's what makes the recent questlines feel so powerful. It isn't the questline itself. It is the 23 expansions worth of synergy and powercreep around it.
So I figured, if we just removed the unfair privilege of quests to start in the opening hand (they're just normal spells after all, like sidequests), and buff some of the slowest ones to compensate for the loss, maybe add some tutor draw in the neutral pool or something, it would fix everything and they could keep printing powerful quest cards forever without breaking the Wild format, because nowadays you CAN complete most quests even if you draw them later, and 5 turns wouldn't be you average hearthstone game anymore. Not that I think any quest broke the game at any time except The Caverns Below, but many of you guys do, and I'm sure it will happen again at some point. The Demon Seed is obviously close to broken, but not yet imo.
What do you think ? Buff quests and remove start in opening hand, or just plain nerf them ? Maybe you're satisfied with the way they are now ?
Make them 7 mana 7/7. it doesnt need to be complicated.
Ok then make your own thread about making them 7/7, my whole point is to discuss another idea than this one that has been discussed a thousand times already, and is legitimate, but it don't think it fixes any of the lingering issues with quest cards I mentionned in the op, and it also kills many quests for little to no reason, and doesn't do anything to hero power rewards.
I'm thinking about an overall change to all quests, not cherry picking the ones that need nerf currently.
I guess I asked you if you would rather nerf them, so don't make your own thread, but what do you think about my complicated idea ? If anything I think it's more complicated and confusing that they start in the opening hand as opposed to every other card in the entire game, including sidequests.
Make them 7 mana 7/7. it doesnt need to be complicated.
Probably not enough. The next card set is gonna have other powercreeping bullshit that will make even that 7 mana 7/7 too powerful. Finishing the game on turn 7 instead of turn 5 is not that big of an improvement. Games should last, on average, the same number of turns as BGs, with less prevalent cases that either end the game earlier or a bit later.
But i guess the marketing target is toilet players, so they drowned the game in the shit water.
I am always happy to discuss new ideas in this field, but there is a massive problem with this suggestion and that is the "Prince Keleseth" problem where you just auto-win when you happen to draw the quest very early and lose because you didn't.
Also, speaking of quest decks in general and not necessarily wild alone, this would improve the win rate of questlock and quest priest relative to the other quests because they already have huge draw/tutor cards. Dh could do something similar as warlock, but would be a lot less consistent. If you add more tutor cards, they would either need to have a very big downside in deckbuilding or cost 3+ mana and do nothing else at the very least.
I also think that your argument with the Un'Goro quests doesn't work because quest rogue did, in fact, build a deck of 29 cards to finish the quest as early as possible, and could quite consistenly do it.
To sum up my thoughts: This sounds like an idea that might just increase the gap between some quests and others AND the importance of early game draws increases even more while not solving the no-control meta problem. The best counter to these new quests would, unsurprisingly, be aggro.
I am always happy to discuss new ideas in this field, but there is a massive problem with this suggestion and that is the "Prince Keleseth" problem where you just auto-win when you happen to draw the quest very early and lose because you didn't.
That's not really a thing anymore though, have you played keleseth decks lately ?
I am currently playing a Keleseth handbuff paladin and he has nowhere near the best play winrate in the deck, in fact against some fast decks playing keleseth on turn 2 just means I'm dead lol
And so that's why I think my idea is legitimate for the Wild format, because the sheer amount of good cards we have access to totally fixes this "one card for all" issue of old. Well now the issue is on the quest cards, because they are auto-win cards like Keleseth used to be, and they are always in your hand.
I didn't read the rest of your post before saying this, I am now reading it
To sum up my thoughts: This sounds like an idea that might just increase the gap between some quests and others AND the importance of early game draws increases even more while not solving the no-control meta problem. The best counter to these new quests would, unsurprisingly, be aggro.
Aggro already is the best counter to quest decks though isn't it ? I don't think this would get worse if quests didn't start in your hand, you would actually have better odds at dealing with the opponent, since you have potentially one more card in your hand. Why would it not solve the no-control meta ? Control would have much more room to breath if quest weren't guaranteed to be played on turn one, even if the quest turns out to be even stronger than it used to when it's actually drawn.
And I strongly believe this would fix the 5 turns average game problem, which I think is an even bigger issue than control being left out currently. 10 turns may be too much for the average game in Blizzard's opinion and I get it, but 5 turns is definitely not enough for players.
I feel like this would reduce the gap between quests, interesting that you think the opposite. I guess we'll never know.
better luck in reddit.. no hearthstone ideas are useless and burried here
I guess so.. I still got 455 people to read this thread. And I am attached to Hearthpwn. I know nothing about reddit, it's not really a thing in my country. I guess any english website isn't a thing in my country.
With the strength of these latest quest rewards, it would turn matches into a race to who could draw out the quest quicker or get lucky and Mulligan for it.
Quests mixed into a deck would need to be both easy(-er) to complete, and have a reward that is not able to crush the person not lucky enough to draw theirs.
If you're making the Un'goro comparison, why not just change Questlines so that they take longer to complete?
Fast as they are, if they don't start in the opening hand, they are totally unplayable. Most of the decks that contain them would just be extremely bad decks if you never draw the Questline.
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"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland
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But they don't start in the opening hand anymore.
My reasoning for this is simple. Original quests from un'goro were designed to take some time to complete. For example quest warrior, you wouldn't just fill your entire deck with low cost bad taunts just to get your reward as fast as possible, it simply wouldn't work, you needed an actual deck that could work without the quest, partly because of the quests design, but mostly because there weren't enough good cards to synergize with the quests. Now you do, you do fill your deck with taunts, get your reward on turn 5-6 and hope it's a good matchup, like all the other quests (sorry Seek Guidance you're hopeless and worthless).
So making them start in the opening hand made sense, because drawing the quest in the middle of the game meant you wouldn't ever complete it.
And quests have been like that for quite some time, but every time there is a new expansion, quests get better, and some expansions add new quests that are instantly good because they already have many expansions worth of synergy material. We now have access to so many good cards, that it has become the best strategy to go all in on quest synergy, every time. You wouldn't believe how good some of the meme quests like un'goro hunter have become over the years.
Now, especially in Wild, all quest decks are basically the quest + 29 synergy cards, regardless of how the deck performs without the quest, this is the new design going forward in Wild (it could be different in standard). And that's what makes the recent questlines feel so powerful. It isn't the questline itself. It is the 23 expansions worth of synergy and powercreep around it.
So I figured, if we just removed the unfair privilege of quests to start in the opening hand (they're just normal spells after all, like sidequests), and buff some of the slowest ones to compensate for the loss, maybe add some tutor draw in the neutral pool or something, it would fix everything and they could keep printing powerful quest cards forever without breaking the Wild format, because nowadays you CAN complete most quests even if you draw them later, and 5 turns wouldn't be you average hearthstone game anymore. Not that I think any quest broke the game at any time except The Caverns Below, but many of you guys do, and I'm sure it will happen again at some point. The Demon Seed is obviously close to broken, but not yet imo.
What do you think ? Buff quests and remove start in opening hand, or just plain nerf them ? Maybe you're satisfied with the way they are now ?
Make them 7 mana 7/7. it doesnt need to be complicated.
Ok then make your own thread about making them 7/7, my whole point is to discuss another idea than this one that has been discussed a thousand times already, and is legitimate, but it don't think it fixes any of the lingering issues with quest cards I mentionned in the op, and it also kills many quests for little to no reason, and doesn't do anything to hero power rewards.
I'm thinking about an overall change to all quests, not cherry picking the ones that need nerf currently.
I guess I asked you if you would rather nerf them, so don't make your own thread, but what do you think about my complicated idea ? If anything I think it's more complicated and confusing that they start in the opening hand as opposed to every other card in the entire game, including sidequests.
Probably not enough. The next card set is gonna have other powercreeping bullshit that will make even that 7 mana 7/7 too powerful. Finishing the game on turn 7 instead of turn 5 is not that big of an improvement. Games should last, on average, the same number of turns as BGs, with less prevalent cases that either end the game earlier or a bit later.
But i guess the marketing target is toilet players, so they drowned the game in the shit water.
I am always happy to discuss new ideas in this field, but there is a massive problem with this suggestion and that is the "Prince Keleseth" problem where you just auto-win when you happen to draw the quest very early and lose because you didn't.
Also, speaking of quest decks in general and not necessarily wild alone, this would improve the win rate of questlock and quest priest relative to the other quests because they already have huge draw/tutor cards. Dh could do something similar as warlock, but would be a lot less consistent. If you add more tutor cards, they would either need to have a very big downside in deckbuilding or cost 3+ mana and do nothing else at the very least.
I also think that your argument with the Un'Goro quests doesn't work because quest rogue did, in fact, build a deck of 29 cards to finish the quest as early as possible, and could quite consistenly do it.
To sum up my thoughts: This sounds like an idea that might just increase the gap between some quests and others AND the importance of early game draws increases even more while not solving the no-control meta problem. The best counter to these new quests would, unsurprisingly, be aggro.
That's not really a thing anymore though, have you played keleseth decks lately ?
I am currently playing a Keleseth handbuff paladin and he has nowhere near the best play winrate in the deck, in fact against some fast decks playing keleseth on turn 2 just means I'm dead lol
And so that's why I think my idea is legitimate for the Wild format, because the sheer amount of good cards we have access to totally fixes this "one card for all" issue of old. Well now the issue is on the quest cards, because they are auto-win cards like Keleseth used to be, and they are always in your hand.
I didn't read the rest of your post before saying this, I am now reading it
Aggro already is the best counter to quest decks though isn't it ? I don't think this would get worse if quests didn't start in your hand, you would actually have better odds at dealing with the opponent, since you have potentially one more card in your hand. Why would it not solve the no-control meta ? Control would have much more room to breath if quest weren't guaranteed to be played on turn one, even if the quest turns out to be even stronger than it used to when it's actually drawn.
And I strongly believe this would fix the 5 turns average game problem, which I think is an even bigger issue than control being left out currently. 10 turns may be too much for the average game in Blizzard's opinion and I get it, but 5 turns is definitely not enough for players.
I feel like this would reduce the gap between quests, interesting that you think the opposite. I guess we'll never know.
better luck in reddit.. no hearthstone ideas are useless and burried here
I guess so.. I still got 455 people to read this thread. And I am attached to Hearthpwn. I know nothing about reddit, it's not really a thing in my country. I guess any english website isn't a thing in my country.
With the strength of these latest quest rewards, it would turn matches into a race to who could draw out the quest quicker or get lucky and Mulligan for it.
Quests mixed into a deck would need to be both easy(-er) to complete, and have a reward that is not able to crush the person not lucky enough to draw theirs.
If you're making the Un'goro comparison, why not just change Questlines so that they take longer to complete?
Fast as they are, if they don't start in the opening hand, they are totally unplayable. Most of the decks that contain them would just be extremely bad decks if you never draw the Questline.
"Why, you never expected justice from a company, did you? They have neither a soul to lose nor a body to kick." -- Lady Saba Holland