There are more and more baby rage threads lately. The funny thing about the current state of the game is that decks are STILL being invented, refined and shifted based on meta changes. I've honestly never seen a more dynamic meta. That being said discover is skillful. Being beaten by it when it is a random highroll does suck, but it's funny that anyone would be surprised, either they play it immediately, sometimes they play it much later, you can still read that and prepare, yet people act as if it's an "unknown" they say it's random and they can't counter, yet since they never looked at it as anything but random they can't actually improve vs. it. They have told their mind,” this part of the game is unimportant for me to pay attention to because it's "random".”
This "random" meme applies to most baby rage complaints. These people are parishioners for the Renewed Chruch of RNGesus. They believe in the holy trinity, RNGesus the son, The spirit of holy Brode that enters their body when they get good RNG, and the father META who determines who lives and who dies based on his judgement alone., The said thing is that most supplicants don't have true faith in RNGesus and the Spirit of Holy Brode. If they did they would allow Brode to enter their body, the holy spirit would guide them to realize that though things are random there are probabilities. Having faith and trusting in your own intuition to track the intervention of the Spirit of Holy Brode is the only way. Repent!
That I'm baby raging against baby rage? Sure. Really I'm just trying to spread the information if that you look at RNG and just categorize it completely as "random" rather then a probability there's an area of the game you will never improve on. Reading situations, draw probability, whether someone has the reach for lethal or not, your own chances for future lethal, which discover is ACTUALLY better etc. , are all important to think about yet many players write all that off as RNG, thus never focus on it, thus they have reached their ceiling unless they begin looking at the game differently. To be frank I'm tired of winning so easily due to mediocre players.
How about just playing the game and not worrying about opinions of people who have no direct consquence upon your game play experience. I understand civil discussion is almost impossible on these boards so I'm not going to suggest entering into meaningful discourse with the people with these opinions, but I'm guessing you're a clever person who can tell from a threads title if you're going to be triggered by it.
There are more and more baby rage threads lately. The funny thing about the current state of the game is that decks are STILL being invented, refined and shifted based on meta changes. I've honestly never seen a more dynamic meta. That being said discover is skillful. Being beaten by it when it is a random highroll does suck, but it's funny that anyone would be surprised, either they play it immediately, sometimes they play it much later, you can still read that and prepare, yet people act as if it's an "unknown" they say it's random and they can't counter, yet since they never looked at it as anything but random they can't actually improve vs. it. They have told their mind,” this part of the game is unimportant for me to pay attention to because it's "random".”
This "random" meme applies to most baby rage complaints. These people are parishioners for the Renewed Chruch of RNGesus. They believe in the holy trinity, RNGesus the son, The spirit of holy Brode that enters their body when they get good RNG, and the father META who determines who lives and who dies based on his judgement alone., The said thing is that most supplicants don't have true faith in RNGesus and the Spirit of Holy Brode. If they did they would allow Brode to enter their body, the holy spirit would guide them to realize that though things are random there are probabilities. Having faith and trusting in your own intuition to track the intervention of the Spirit of Holy Brode is the only way. Repent!
First, can you tell us what you are on? We might like to try that drug.
Second, with regards to Discover being skillful, that is mostly nonsense. You get to pick the best choice from the three random options the game presents you. You do not control those three options, they are selected at random, and they can all be complete useless trash, just as they can all be the perfect cards you need for the situation you are facing.
I wouldn't go with the argument that people don't want to calculate odds and probabilities to decide the best course of action. That is exactly how I play when facing Random elements, I mentally visualize all the possible results for a random element, then I see the most likely to occur (based on similar effects as well as effects most useful to the situation taking place), then I proceed according to the actions that will give me the best chance of success.
That doesn't stop the fact that your strategy, the one you decide to play, may have no option nor flexibility to address this random element from your opponent. Which means, what actually determines the outcome? Whether the opponent is offered at least one choice from the three, to which your strategy is incapable of answering because of lack of flexibility.
Essentially, you are still at the mercy of whether you/your opponent are lucky with the three options he is presented. In other words, the outcome is random. If luck favors them, they beat you, if luck favors you, you beat them. You can say the same thing with regards to the match-up of strategies, you are correct, but you pick the strategy you use and so does your opponent. Neither of you get to pick the three choices he gets for discover, that is the problem, it is random.
You can say that all you want, but I often see people making the wrong choice, Discover choice is very context dependent, Curve, value, matchup. Many people don't look at any of these factors. Also I'm not saying you're one of the RNGesus followers I'm saying they exist, people who who complain that things are random then don't actually evaluate and re-evaluate their choices because of that belief that it's random. Also If you're playing a deck that really is just based on curve you don't really have room to complain that you didn't give yourself choices. But to be fair I don't actually know of a deck like that in the meta.
How about just playing the game and not worrying about opinions of people who have no direct consquence upon your game play experience. I understand civil discussion is almost impossible on these boards so I'm not going to suggest entering into meaningful discourse with the people with these opinions, but I'm guessing you're a clever person who can tell from a threads title if you're going to be triggered by it.
I think you might misunderstand. I want the RNGesus whiners to actually understand their faults and start looking at probabilities, lines of action, hand reading, card tracking, situational awareness etc so that they actually get better.
There are more and more baby rage threads lately. The funny thing about the current state of the game is that decks are STILL being invented, refined and shifted based on meta changes. I've honestly never seen a more dynamic meta.
I thought I might take you seriously but then you started off with this load of bs. This is, by far and away, the most stale meta in a good while. The meta is effectively dead, the decks have long been figured and there will be no change whatsoever until the next expansion comes out. I'd really love to hear what new decks have been invented but I'd honestly just ask you what you're smoking instead and to give me some please.
either they play it immediately, sometimes they play it much later, you can still read that and prepare, yet people act as if it's an "unknown" they say it's random and they can't counter, yet since they never looked at it as anything but random they can't actually improve vs. it.
Discover ANY SPELL, discover ANY DRAGON, play 10 RANDOM spells.
Yeah, totally not random. And totally you can play around everything.
"It says spell/dragon/lackey, you know they discovered a spell/dragon/lackey, play around all spells/dragons/lackeys then. SKILLLLLL!".
Yeah, sure. Especially when all these discovers happen to be in a one game - play around all spells and all Dragons at the same time :D
Don't be ridiculous. It's not only impossible, but also leads to subpar plays to try to play around all of the stuff the opponent most likely doesn't have. If anything, the correct play is most of the time to play around nothing outside of the deck (with the exception of things discovered from Zephrys etc. where you more or less know, what to expect) and hope for the best. If not, you will not lose to the randomness, but rather simply get beaten by the opponent making stronger plays.
Play to win, not not to lose.
So no, there is no skill in discover. It's just yolo facing it and if you are the one discovering and can't pick the right option most of the time, you are dumb, not the people who pick the optimal ones are good.
I agree that discover is fine as a mechanic and that there is skill involved if it is a decision out of 3 cards and not just a random card. I also think that mages boxing is fine because you can think of it it as your opponent’s turnaround card and to some extent play around it accordingly by not over extending.
What is problematic imo is when half of your opponent’s hand is cards that didn’t start in their deck and that’s the case with gala rogue or gala priest. If blizz wants to give some classes late game value, something like jarraxus hero power would be much more certain in terms of playing around.
Lackeys and gala priest’s hero power is the problem imo not the discover mechanic.
While RNG is part of every card game, the game as it is right now relies way, WAY too much on it. I believe that to be the issue, not the RNG itself but the seer volume of it. Mage, in particular is ridiculous at this point: not a problem of beating it or not (HL Mage is not that goodreat) but a great example of a deck that relies almost exclusively on RNG. We can hope that next expansion address this by avoiding new "discover-like" mechanics, but I think it's the hard path to take design-wise: I feel the RNG is sort of a "solution" for a lack of creativity in new cards and sets. Sorry for bad english.
What is problematic imo is when half of your opponent’s hand is cards that didn’t start in their deck and that’s the case with gala rogue or gala priest. If blizz wants to give some classes late game value, something like jarraxus hero power would be much more certain in terms of playing around.
Lackeys and gala priest’s hero power is the problem imo not the discover mechanic.
I was with you until here. There's a vast difference between gala rogue (aka lackey-fest) and gala priest. I happen to play quite a bit of the latter, and it's vastly more difficult than the former. With the priest HP, you're paying 2 mana for a random priest minion, then having to pay full cost to play it. Sure, sometimes you get the nuts card, but I've also gotten utterly useless cards that put me in a very bad spot. And, in many cases, by the time you have more "new" cards in your hand than ones that started in your deck, the game is all but over. Your opponent is running out of cards, and even lousy draws from your HP are better than nothing.
I'd love to see the Discover power for lackeys changed from a choice of 3 to a choice of 2. That would reduce the power level and make it less tedious to play against.
What is problematic imo is when half of your opponent’s hand is cards that didn’t start in their deck and that’s the case with gala rogue or gala priest. If blizz wants to give some classes late game value, something like jarraxus hero power would be much more certain in terms of playing around.
Lackeys and gala priest’s hero power is the problem imo not the discover mechanic.
I was with you until here. There's a vast difference between gala rogue (aka lackey-fest) and gala priest. I happen to play quite a bit of the latter, and it's vastly more difficult than the former. With the priest HP, you're paying 2 mana for a random priest minion, then having to pay full cost to play it. Sure, sometimes you get the nuts card, but I've also gotten utterly useless cards that put me in a very bad spot. And, in many cases, by the time you have more "new" cards in your hand than ones that started in your deck, the game is all but over. Your opponent is running out of cards, and even lousy draws from your HP are better than nothing.
I'd love to see the Discover power for lackeys changed from a choice of 3 to a choice of 2. That would reduce the power level and make it less tedious to play against.
I never said that RNG makes Priests too strong. I am just saying that the gravity RNG has on a person’s decision making when they play against rogue or priest is bad for the game.
I don’t see what you mean by saying that priests pay for the hero power and the generated card’s full cost? The same stands for rogues. Sure, discover is better than a random card but imo the problem is that both are random and you can use them multiple times.
Also, your point that by the point the majority of cards in your hand are cards that you didn’t start the game with, the game is already finished, is not representative of the situation imo. If your opponent knows that at some point you would run out of board clear, they would try to bait your board clear out so that eventually they could push to win the game. The reason you feel games are finished by the time your hand is full of generated cards is that as another user said above it is no longer worth it playing around all the possible clears gala might give your opponent. It doesn’t matter that 4/5 generated cards in your hand are trash, if I spent the whole game baiting out your board clears so I can extend and then you play a generated plague of death. It’s just not worth it playing around this stuff as the priest will outvalue you 9/10 times so what happens is that whether you win or lose against priest depends on what gala gives them rather on whether you made the right play.
I was with you until here. There's a vast difference between gala rogue (aka lackey-fest) and gala priest. I happen to play quite a bit of the latter, and it's vastly more difficult than the former. With the priest HP, you're paying 2 mana for a random priest minion, then having to pay full cost to play it. Sure, sometimes you get the nuts card, but I've also gotten utterly useless cards that put me in a very bad spot. And, in many cases, by the time you have more "new" cards in your hand than ones that started in your deck, the game is all but over. Your opponent is running out of cards, and even lousy draws from your HP are better than nothing.
I'd love to see the Discover power for lackeys changed from a choice of 3 to a choice of 2. That would reduce the power level and make it less tedious to play against.
I never said that RNG makes Priests too strong. I am just saying that the gravity RNG has on a person’s decision making when they play against rogue or priest is bad for the game.
I don’t see what you mean by saying that priests pay for the hero power and the generated card’s full cost? The same stands for rogues. Sure, discover is better than a random card but imo the problem is that both are random and you can use them multiple times.
Also, your point that by the point the majority of cards in your hand are cards that you didn’t start the game with, the game is already finished, is not representative of the situation imo. If your opponent knows that at some point you would run out of board clear, they would try to bait your board clear out so that eventually they could push to win the game. The reason you feel games are finished by the time your hand is full of generated cards is that as another user said above it is no longer worth it playing around all the possible clears gala might give your opponent. It doesn’t matter that 4/5 generated cards in your hand are trash, if I spent the whole game baiting out your board clears so I can extend and then you play a generated plague of death. It’s just not worth it playing around this stuff as the priest will outvalue you 9/10 times so what happens is that whether you win or lose against priest depends on what gala gives them rather on whether you made the right play.
Thanks for your reply. Let me try to respond to some of your points, and clarify some of mine.
First, yes both have an element of RNG. No question. But I'd argue that, unlikely lackeys, the RNG cuts both ways WRT gala priest. Yes, you can be given an awesome card, but you can also get crap. I get hurt by crappy random minions as often as I'm helped with good ones. The existence of choice for the lackeys is huge.
Second, again there's a huge difference between paying essentially 2 MORE mana per minion and paying 1 mana for a 1 mana 1/1 AND a choice of 3 minions/ spells. Especially since that 1/1 enables combo cards quite easily.
Third, I don't agree with your final point, particularly when you say "all the possible clears gala might give your opponent." The gala HP does not give spells, and there are very few priest minions that are effective board clears. I guess you could argue that Chronobreaker is, but 3 damage late in the game (and only if you hold a dragon) isn't that great. Natalie, Aeon Reaver and Infiltrator are single remove. I guess you could get lucky, get Sethekk Veilweaver AND have a targetable spell AND get Plague, but that's not really something you can count on.
But I do agree that the HP, in the long term, allows you to outvalue your opponent. But that's the whole point of the HP. Stall the game, and finally overwhelm your opponent with value.
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There are more and more baby rage threads lately. The funny thing about the current state of the game is that decks are STILL being invented, refined and shifted based on meta changes. I've honestly never seen a more dynamic meta. That being said discover is skillful. Being beaten by it when it is a random highroll does suck, but it's funny that anyone would be surprised, either they play it immediately, sometimes they play it much later, you can still read that and prepare, yet people act as if it's an "unknown" they say it's random and they can't counter, yet since they never looked at it as anything but random they can't actually improve vs. it. They have told their mind,” this part of the game is unimportant for me to pay attention to because it's "random".”
This "random" meme applies to most baby rage complaints. These people are parishioners for the Renewed Chruch of RNGesus. They believe in the holy trinity, RNGesus the son, The spirit of holy Brode that enters their body when they get good RNG, and the father META who determines who lives and who dies based on his judgement alone., The said thing is that most supplicants don't have true faith in RNGesus and the Spirit of Holy Brode. If they did they would allow Brode to enter their body, the holy spirit would guide them to realize that though things are random there are probabilities. Having faith and trusting in your own intuition to track the intervention of the Spirit of Holy Brode is the only way. Repent!
Yeah, including this one
That I'm baby raging against baby rage? Sure. Really I'm just trying to spread the information if that you look at RNG and just categorize it completely as "random" rather then a probability there's an area of the game you will never improve on. Reading situations, draw probability, whether someone has the reach for lethal or not, your own chances for future lethal, which discover is ACTUALLY better etc. , are all important to think about yet many players write all that off as RNG, thus never focus on it, thus they have reached their ceiling unless they begin looking at the game differently. To be frank I'm tired of winning so easily due to mediocre players.
How about just playing the game and not worrying about opinions of people who have no direct consquence upon your game play experience. I understand civil discussion is almost impossible on these boards so I'm not going to suggest entering into meaningful discourse with the people with these opinions, but I'm guessing you're a clever person who can tell from a threads title if you're going to be triggered by it.
Plus let us know how you get on at the Grandmasters.
You can say that all you want, but I often see people making the wrong choice, Discover choice is very context dependent, Curve, value, matchup. Many people don't look at any of these factors. Also I'm not saying you're one of the RNGesus followers I'm saying they exist, people who who complain that things are random then don't actually evaluate and re-evaluate their choices because of that belief that it's random. Also If you're playing a deck that really is just based on curve you don't really have room to complain that you didn't give yourself choices. But to be fair I don't actually know of a deck like that in the meta.
I think you might misunderstand. I want the RNGesus whiners to actually understand their faults and start looking at probabilities, lines of action, hand reading, card tracking, situational awareness etc so that they actually get better.
I thought I might take you seriously but then you started off with this load of bs. This is, by far and away, the most stale meta in a good while. The meta is effectively dead, the decks have long been figured and there will be no change whatsoever until the next expansion comes out. I'd really love to hear what new decks have been invented but I'd honestly just ask you what you're smoking instead and to give me some please.
Lackeys are shit, that's it.
Discover ANY SPELL, discover ANY DRAGON, play 10 RANDOM spells.
Yeah, totally not random. And totally you can play around everything.
"It says spell/dragon/lackey, you know they discovered a spell/dragon/lackey, play around all spells/dragons/lackeys then. SKILLLLLL!".
Yeah, sure. Especially when all these discovers happen to be in a one game - play around all spells and all Dragons at the same time :D
Don't be ridiculous. It's not only impossible, but also leads to subpar plays to try to play around all of the stuff the opponent most likely doesn't have. If anything, the correct play is most of the time to play around nothing outside of the deck (with the exception of things discovered from Zephrys etc. where you more or less know, what to expect) and hope for the best. If not, you will not lose to the randomness, but rather simply get beaten by the opponent making stronger plays.
Play to win, not not to lose.
So no, there is no skill in discover. It's just yolo facing it and if you are the one discovering and can't pick the right option most of the time, you are dumb, not the people who pick the optimal ones are good.
I agree that discover is fine as a mechanic and that there is skill involved if it is a decision out of 3 cards and not just a random card. I also think that mages boxing is fine because you can think of it it as your opponent’s turnaround card and to some extent play around it accordingly by not over extending.
What is problematic imo is when half of your opponent’s hand is cards that didn’t start in their deck and that’s the case with gala rogue or gala priest. If blizz wants to give some classes late game value, something like jarraxus hero power would be much more certain in terms of playing around.
Lackeys and gala priest’s hero power is the problem imo not the discover mechanic.
While RNG is part of every card game, the game as it is right now relies way, WAY too much on it. I believe that to be the issue, not the RNG itself but the seer volume of it. Mage, in particular is ridiculous at this point: not a problem of beating it or not (HL Mage is not that goodreat) but a great example of a deck that relies almost exclusively on RNG. We can hope that next expansion address this by avoiding new "discover-like" mechanics, but I think it's the hard path to take design-wise: I feel the RNG is sort of a "solution" for a lack of creativity in new cards and sets. Sorry for bad english.
I was with you until here. There's a vast difference between gala rogue (aka lackey-fest) and gala priest. I happen to play quite a bit of the latter, and it's vastly more difficult than the former. With the priest HP, you're paying 2 mana for a random priest minion, then having to pay full cost to play it. Sure, sometimes you get the nuts card, but I've also gotten utterly useless cards that put me in a very bad spot. And, in many cases, by the time you have more "new" cards in your hand than ones that started in your deck, the game is all but over. Your opponent is running out of cards, and even lousy draws from your HP are better than nothing.
I'd love to see the Discover power for lackeys changed from a choice of 3 to a choice of 2. That would reduce the power level and make it less tedious to play against.
I never said that RNG makes Priests too strong. I am just saying that the gravity RNG has on a person’s decision making when they play against rogue or priest is bad for the game.
I don’t see what you mean by saying that priests pay for the hero power and the generated card’s full cost? The same stands for rogues. Sure, discover is better than a random card but imo the problem is that both are random and you can use them multiple times.
Also, your point that by the point the majority of cards in your hand are cards that you didn’t start the game with, the game is already finished, is not representative of the situation imo. If your opponent knows that at some point you would run out of board clear, they would try to bait your board clear out so that eventually they could push to win the game. The reason you feel games are finished by the time your hand is full of generated cards is that as another user said above it is no longer worth it playing around all the possible clears gala might give your opponent. It doesn’t matter that 4/5 generated cards in your hand are trash, if I spent the whole game baiting out your board clears so I can extend and then you play a generated plague of death. It’s just not worth it playing around this stuff as the priest will outvalue you 9/10 times so what happens is that whether you win or lose against priest depends on what gala gives them rather on whether you made the right play.
Thanks for your reply. Let me try to respond to some of your points, and clarify some of mine.
First, yes both have an element of RNG. No question. But I'd argue that, unlikely lackeys, the RNG cuts both ways WRT gala priest. Yes, you can be given an awesome card, but you can also get crap. I get hurt by crappy random minions as often as I'm helped with good ones. The existence of choice for the lackeys is huge.
Second, again there's a huge difference between paying essentially 2 MORE mana per minion and paying 1 mana for a 1 mana 1/1 AND a choice of 3 minions/ spells. Especially since that 1/1 enables combo cards quite easily.
Third, I don't agree with your final point, particularly when you say "all the possible clears gala might give your opponent." The gala HP does not give spells, and there are very few priest minions that are effective board clears. I guess you could argue that Chronobreaker is, but 3 damage late in the game (and only if you hold a dragon) isn't that great. Natalie, Aeon Reaver and Infiltrator are single remove. I guess you could get lucky, get Sethekk Veilweaver AND have a targetable spell AND get Plague, but that's not really something you can count on.
But I do agree that the HP, in the long term, allows you to outvalue your opponent. But that's the whole point of the HP. Stall the game, and finally overwhelm your opponent with value.