So after going through tons of Rogues (which honestly feels ridiculous as a deck to me, way too much of... everything), I've had a random thought that DH may be the only thing keeping them in check.
Let's try not to be biased - Galakrond Rogue is objectively a no. 2 deck of the format. And it it on this spot DESPITE the fact that DH isn't even a favorable match-up. It can be considered 50-50 if you are so inclined, but actual statistics show that on average DH wins a bit more. Of course it's kinda close, but if you were to bet your money, you should rather bet it on the DH.
Obvious counters? Only one - Face Hunter. And Face Hunter is so easily countered, so it will never be the best deck. Somewhere near top? Maybe. But that's all. Other than that we have Spell Druid and... that's it.
I would argue that should there be no DH in the game, Galakrond Rogue would be by far the best deck of the format. And by this I don't mean merely "the best", but constantscreamstonerf kind of deck.
Now i don't say it's a good situation when two powerhouses fight each other and the rest is way below them. It's a sad sign of powercreep that there even is a deck like Galakrond Rogue and it's not the best one. But the fact remains - you can probably thank DHs for not having Rogue T0 meta.
Now i don't say it's a good situation when two powerhouses fight each other and the rest is way below them.
I think it's more of this. Rogue and DH don't need big nerfs, just a couple of tweaks to make the power level a bit more consistent. There are always going to be "tier x" decks because not everything can be perfectly balanced. Right now rogue and DH are just too consistent at beating the rest of the of the field. So I'm not going to thank DH players...in fact I think they are the worst since it's basically an easy legend climb right now.
Now i don't say it's a good situation when two powerhouses fight each other and the rest is way below them.
I think it's more of this. Rogue and DH don't need big nerfs, just a couple of tweaks to make the power level a bit more consistent. There are always going to be "tier x" decks because not everything can be perfectly balanced. Right now rogue and DH are just too consistent at beating the rest of the of the field. So I'm not going to thank DH players...in fact I think they are the worst since it's basically an easy legend climb right now.
I actually think that it would be a good idea to buff other classes instead of nerfing those 2. give them more tools to be competitive
Now i don't say it's a good situation when two powerhouses fight each other and the rest is way below them.
I think it's more of this. Rogue and DH don't need big nerfs, just a couple of tweaks to make the power level a bit more consistent. There are always going to be "tier x" decks because not everything can be perfectly balanced. Right now rogue and DH are just too consistent at beating the rest of the of the field. So I'm not going to thank DH players...in fact I think they are the worst since it's basically an easy legend climb right now.
I actually think that it would be a good idea to buff other classes instead of nerfing those 2. give them more tools to be competitive
It would set the bar for future cards way to high. Right now we can at least hope that with the next rotation the overall power level will go down a bit. After they started making other cards even more powerful to dethrone the existing ones it would be way too hard for them to ever go back.
Pretty much. Without DH, the meta will be Galakrond Rogue and Galakrond Priest. For some reason, Blizzard thought giving them inifnite resource generation was a good idea. Oh, but you need to build your deck around them? Not really, I've seen Rogues and Priests who only have Kronx and Galakrond in their decks, no invokes. The hero power is more than enough. Soon, we'll be back to Dr. Boom meta.
Now i don't say it's a good situation when two powerhouses fight each other and the rest is way below them.
I think it's more of this. Rogue and DH don't need big nerfs, just a couple of tweaks to make the power level a bit more consistent. There are always going to be "tier x" decks because not everything can be perfectly balanced. Right now rogue and DH are just too consistent at beating the rest of the of the field. So I'm not going to thank DH players...in fact I think they are the worst since it's basically an easy legend climb right now.
I actually think that it would be a good idea to buff other classes instead of nerfing those 2. give them more tools to be competitive
It would set the bar for future cards way to high. Right now we can at least hope that with the next rotation the overall power level will go down a bit. After they started making other cards even more powerful to dethrone the existing ones it would be way too hard for them to ever go back.
This happened with rastakan rumble the op cards rotated and they lowered the power level and everybody was salty that the power of cards was to low.
Now i don't say it's a good situation when two powerhouses fight each other and the rest is way below them.
I think it's more of this. Rogue and DH don't need big nerfs, just a couple of tweaks to make the power level a bit more consistent. There are always going to be "tier x" decks because not everything can be perfectly balanced. Right now rogue and DH are just too consistent at beating the rest of the of the field. So I'm not going to thank DH players...in fact I think they are the worst since it's basically an easy legend climb right now.
I actually think that it would be a good idea to buff other classes instead of nerfing those 2. give them more tools to be competitive
It would set the bar for future cards way to high. Right now we can at least hope that with the next rotation the overall power level will go down a bit. After they started making other cards even more powerful to dethrone the existing ones it would be way too hard for them to ever go back.
This happened with rastakan rumble the op cards rotated and they lowered the power level and everybody was salty that the power of cards was to low.
I wasn't salty. I really enjoyed the low-power meta of RoS and SoU. Then the dragons turned up and wrecked everything...
As for Demon Hunter, I don't mind it so much. I think Skull of Guldan is still a problem, and will only become more of a problem as more sets are released, but right now it's only oppressive because of how it enables Altruis. Likewise I don't find Rogue to be too unpleasant. The only deck I truly hate playing against is Dragon Hunter.
Is there a way of beating DH though? that's the important question. I play all classes, but i'm going to focus on priest and warrior (they both have healing). Basically your hero power should "counter" any face agression, but it doesnt with DH.
I do not mind aggro decks, they've always existed and is a was of keeping combo/control decks in check. However, aggro decks ten to run out of steam during mid-late game. But not DH, it is a constant agression every single turn, you might heal back to 30, that theyll take you down to 15 next turn. Heal back up to 25? dont worry, they'll take you down again.
I believe it is not too healthy when a class can deal +10 damage (at least), every turn, coming from an empty board.
DH has too much stuff in the mid game and late game which goes face. They have board clear, healing, card draw and hold tempo while going face. They can gain tempo and board clear and go face all in the one turn. Rogue has clear counters. DH has maybe egg warrior and it beats everything else. There are some really degenerate decks out there that just pretty much beat everything but then there is always their one hard counter. DH doesn't really have a hard counter. a 40% - 45% win rate vs egg warrior isnt really a hard counter.
DH has too much stuff in the mid game and late game which goes face. They have board clear, healing, card draw and hold tempo while going face. They can gain tempo and board clear and go face all in the one turn. Rogue has clear counters. DH has maybe egg warrior and it beats everything else. There are some really degenerate decks out there that just pretty much beat everything but then there is always their one hard counter. DH doesn't really have a hard counter. a 40% - 45% win rate vs egg warrior isnt really a hard counter.
The question is, what would Counter Rogue, if there was no DH. I would say nothing reliable (I don't consider Face Hunter as such).
EDIT: 4 Galashit Rogues in a row. Yeah, now I am convinced - it's good that DH exists.
DH has too much stuff in the mid game and late game which goes face. They have board clear, healing, card draw and hold tempo while going face. They can gain tempo and board clear and go face all in the one turn. Rogue has clear counters. DH has maybe egg warrior and it beats everything else. There are some really degenerate decks out there that just pretty much beat everything but then there is always their one hard counter. DH doesn't really have a hard counter. a 40% - 45% win rate vs egg warrior isnt really a hard counter.
The question is, what would Counter Rogue, if there was no DH. I would say nothing reliable (I don't consider Face Hunter as such).
EDIT: 4 Galashit Rogues in a row. Yeah, now I am convinced - it's good that DH exists.
Face hunter is one but sure if you don't want to count that, then zoolock is another pretty good counter. A great counter though is a deck I played to legend last season which was control bomb warrior. So no rampage or inner rage etc. All I did was control the board and put bombs into their deck. I think on the coin i was like 17-5 or something like that. Going first it was devastating, 22-1. Their deck draws. You put bombs into their deck. Now they can't draw! Or if they do they die. They have no healing. The control aspect of the deck was just to keep their board clear. Deathwing mad aspect was MvP when it came to that. No one plays around that card.
Is there a way of beating DH though? that's the important question. I play all classes, but i'm going to focus on priest and warrior (they both have healing). Basically your hero power should "counter" any face agression, but it doesnt with DH.
I do not mind aggro decks, they've always existed and is a was of keeping combo/control decks in check. However, aggro decks ten to run out of steam during mid-late game. But not DH, it is a constant agression every single turn, you might heal back to 30, that theyll take you down to 15 next turn. Heal back up to 25? dont worry, they'll take you down again.
I believe it is not too healthy when a class can deal +10 damage (at least), every turn, coming from an empty board.
Exactly. It's not even a combo deck, but it can deal huge amount of dmg, in single turn, just from hand.
Consider scenario, where DH has empty board and 10 mana to spend:
it's 18 damage (of which 8 will go to the entire opponent's board, basically destroying it completely)! And if you have some reduced mana cards from Skull of Gul'dan or Altruis the Outcast on board (from previous turn), then you can pretty much OTK your enemy, while still technically playing tempo deck... I know it's a little bit of a stretch, but it shows DH's raw power.
Highlander or dragon hunter dominates gala rogue. If dh was not there rogues would have a tougher time . It was same before sac pact nerf. Warlock use to keep dh in check and top deck.
Yeah, and attached is Rogue. Is there a big minion on the board I have to deal with? No worries, imma just generate myself a Hex. And this is just one example! They have value for days. At this point I honestly auto-concede.
All you need to beat DH is adapt. Choose a proper deck and tech it in accordance. Rogue is just a mess. 0 cost cards, tons of value, early cards generation, like Coin Miscreant or the 5 health 2-drop, which you HAVE TO kill. What is this? What were they even thinking? You say DH has no weak spots. Where are Rogues apart from the fact you can aggro them to the ground by being forced to play literally a Face deck?
I am tired of this shit. Galakrond Rogue looks unbeatable to me, unless I pick a deck specifically to deal with them. No Tier 2 even stands a chance. And I don't want to play Face Hunter or Bomb Warrior (which sucks against anything else). I am not memeing with my decks, I am playing solid Tiers 2 - Spell Druid, Highlander Mage, Highlander DH. And I have to concede vs Rogues, not vs DH. I would expect to at least have a chance. I do vs DH, which is apparently sooo broken.
Rogue in some aspects is even more bullshit and people simply don't see it because DH is the main one to hate.
Someone pointed out that almost all classes have high winrate decks in standard so the meta seems healthy.
It isn't easy to determine if a class is good for the meta or not. Is DH really holding back too many decks? Winrates don't seem to reflect that. More importantly, is DH holding back decks that are a natural counter to rogue? Not sure as I don't play standard.
DH has too much stuff in the mid game and late game which goes face. They have board clear, healing, card draw and hold tempo while going face. They can gain tempo and board clear and go face all in the one turn. Rogue has clear counters. DH has maybe egg warrior and it beats everything else. There are some really degenerate decks out there that just pretty much beat everything but then there is always their one hard counter. DH doesn't really have a hard counter. a 40% - 45% win rate vs egg warrior isnt really a hard counter.
The question is, what would Counter Rogue, if there was no DH. I would say nothing reliable (I don't consider Face Hunter as such).
EDIT: 4 Galashit Rogues in a row. Yeah, now I am convinced - it's good that DH exists.
This! Been complaining against Gala Rogues for months now, but only thing people hate is DH.
Understand 1 thing... If DH wasn't so powerful would someone bat an eye at it? No. It's the new class of course it's powerful!
If it wasn't it would be like you would work hard for something and then everyone shat on your months of work.
Does in it still need a few adjustments? Of course it does, but it doesn't need to be killed.
On the other hand how can a class like Rogue be so favorable against a class like priest which has tons of removal? Never was until this point.
People say that DH has alot of face damage in 1 turn. Try getting by with your first hand being 2 warglaives and 2 priestess and tell me if you still win. You won't.
On the other hand rogue has secrets, has removal up the ass, has beefyish minions, has face damage, the legendaries when played are bonkers. A Metamorphosis and Kayn don't usually make such a swing turn compared to cards like Vancleef, Gala or even Togwaggle.
My opinion? Fix the top 3 decks with the following:
Raging Felscreamer; Reduce the demon by 1 or make it like a 3/3. A 4/4 minion with that effect makes it a bit too sticky to deal with especially when next turn comes priestess.
Priestess of Fury doesn't need a nerf because it's a fair card for 7 (maximum make it a 6/6) but a bit too much for 5.
Blackjack Stunner: Make it a 2 or 3 mana because when you have a secret like Bamboozle you don't want to trigger it, it's easy to stay on board.
Shadowjeweler Hanar: We already had this problem with EVIL Miscreant. Trust me. A 2 mana 1/5 is way better than a 2/3 or a 3/2 because it's way stickier and we shouldn't have such sticky minions on the early game. Make it at least a 1/4 like Miscreant.
Faceless Corruptor: Make it a 6 mana card. Let me give you the example of Reckless Mummy which i think is a great card (or at least used to be). It is guaranteed the mummy will die. But with corruptor in rogue you will never play it alone and both of them stay on board on turn 5/6. And the mummy is a class clard which should be a bit better than neutral cards.
Heistbaron Togwaggle: Should need two lackeys to get the treasure, It's too much of a payoff for such an easy requirement. Marin the Fox (the og treasure guy ) sucked a big one but this went too far.
Risky Skipper or Armorsmith: Raise 1 mana in either of this cards but also raise their attack by 1... They are too much power of a power enabler when combined because with only two cards you clear an entire board of 1 health minions and still gain armor. The rest of the deck seems fine and not too unbalanced.
Now i have some suggestions for some buffs to raise the stakes a bit for the other classes:
Corrupt Elementalist and Invocation of Frost : Should be back their original state. Shaman is in a lowpoint in his history (i think it has the lowest wintrates in 5 years) and the more troubleful card in that pack of cards was Dragon's Pack and that is fine the way it is. This way it woudn't be the opressive powerhouse of the early day and could easily give DH/Rogue and Warrior a run for their money.
Mana Wyrm: For the love of god bring back this card to 1 mana. I don't even understand why it got nerfed in the first place because it was never him the problem but the cards that enable him. At least a 1 mana 1/2 would be much more rewarding that a 2 mana 1/3 that nowdays gets easily destroyed by turn 3.
And that are my nerf/buff suggestions. I think this way most classes would see more play in 1 way or another and other classes i didn't mentioned would see play because the strongest decks wouldn't be so strong, making these classes more competitive.
Please let me know what you think about my suggestions. Thank you and have a good day :)
So after going through tons of Rogues (which honestly feels ridiculous as a deck to me, way too much of... everything), I've had a random thought that DH may be the only thing keeping them in check.
Let's try not to be biased - Galakrond Rogue is objectively a no. 2 deck of the format. And it it on this spot DESPITE the fact that DH isn't even a favorable match-up. It can be considered 50-50 if you are so inclined, but actual statistics show that on average DH wins a bit more. Of course it's kinda close, but if you were to bet your money, you should rather bet it on the DH.
Obvious counters? Only one - Face Hunter. And Face Hunter is so easily countered, so it will never be the best deck. Somewhere near top? Maybe. But that's all. Other than that we have Spell Druid and... that's it.
I would argue that should there be no DH in the game, Galakrond Rogue would be by far the best deck of the format. And by this I don't mean merely "the best", but constantscreamstonerf kind of deck.
Now i don't say it's a good situation when two powerhouses fight each other and the rest is way below them. It's a sad sign of powercreep that there even is a deck like Galakrond Rogue and it's not the best one. But the fact remains - you can probably thank DHs for not having Rogue T0 meta.
We get it, Deamonhuner = bad. Why do people have do make a new post for it every day?
You didn't even bother to read. Pathetic.
I think it's more of this. Rogue and DH don't need big nerfs, just a couple of tweaks to make the power level a bit more consistent. There are always going to be "tier x" decks because not everything can be perfectly balanced. Right now rogue and DH are just too consistent at beating the rest of the of the field. So I'm not going to thank DH players...in fact I think they are the worst since it's basically an easy legend climb right now.
I actually think that it would be a good idea to buff other classes instead of nerfing those 2. give them more tools to be competitive
It would set the bar for future cards way to high. Right now we can at least hope that with the next rotation the overall power level will go down a bit. After they started making other cards even more powerful to dethrone the existing ones it would be way too hard for them to ever go back.
At higher levels Rogue and DH go toe to toe, DH isn't a counter to them.
I didn't say it's a counter, only that it is the only deck on the similar level of power (and a bit favored).
Pretty much. Without DH, the meta will be Galakrond Rogue and Galakrond Priest. For some reason, Blizzard thought giving them inifnite resource generation was a good idea. Oh, but you need to build your deck around them? Not really, I've seen Rogues and Priests who only have Kronx and Galakrond in their decks, no invokes. The hero power is more than enough. Soon, we'll be back to Dr. Boom meta.
This happened with rastakan rumble the op cards rotated and they lowered the power level and everybody was salty that the power of cards was to low.
I wasn't salty. I really enjoyed the low-power meta of RoS and SoU. Then the dragons turned up and wrecked everything...
As for Demon Hunter, I don't mind it so much. I think Skull of Guldan is still a problem, and will only become more of a problem as more sets are released, but right now it's only oppressive because of how it enables Altruis. Likewise I don't find Rogue to be too unpleasant. The only deck I truly hate playing against is Dragon Hunter.
Is there a way of beating DH though? that's the important question. I play all classes, but i'm going to focus on priest and warrior (they both have healing). Basically your hero power should "counter" any face agression, but it doesnt with DH.
I do not mind aggro decks, they've always existed and is a was of keeping combo/control decks in check. However, aggro decks ten to run out of steam during mid-late game. But not DH, it is a constant agression every single turn, you might heal back to 30, that theyll take you down to 15 next turn. Heal back up to 25? dont worry, they'll take you down again.
I believe it is not too healthy when a class can deal +10 damage (at least), every turn, coming from an empty board.
DH has too much stuff in the mid game and late game which goes face. They have board clear, healing, card draw and hold tempo while going face. They can gain tempo and board clear and go face all in the one turn. Rogue has clear counters. DH has maybe egg warrior and it beats everything else. There are some really degenerate decks out there that just pretty much beat everything but then there is always their one hard counter. DH doesn't really have a hard counter. a 40% - 45% win rate vs egg warrior isnt really a hard counter.
The question is, what would Counter Rogue, if there was no DH. I would say nothing reliable (I don't consider Face Hunter as such).
EDIT: 4 Galashit Rogues in a row. Yeah, now I am convinced - it's good that DH exists.
Face hunter is one but sure if you don't want to count that, then zoolock is another pretty good counter. A great counter though is a deck I played to legend last season which was control bomb warrior. So no rampage or inner rage etc. All I did was control the board and put bombs into their deck. I think on the coin i was like 17-5 or something like that. Going first it was devastating, 22-1. Their deck draws. You put bombs into their deck. Now they can't draw! Or if they do they die. They have no healing. The control aspect of the deck was just to keep their board clear. Deathwing mad aspect was MvP when it came to that. No one plays around that card.
Exactly. It's not even a combo deck, but it can deal huge amount of dmg, in single turn, just from hand.
Consider scenario, where DH has empty board and 10 mana to spend:
it's 18 damage (of which 8 will go to the entire opponent's board, basically destroying it completely)! And if you have some reduced mana cards from Skull of Gul'dan or Altruis the Outcast on board (from previous turn), then you can pretty much OTK your enemy, while still technically playing tempo deck... I know it's a little bit of a stretch, but it shows DH's raw power.
Highlander or dragon hunter dominates gala rogue. If dh was not there rogues would have a tougher time . It was same before sac pact nerf. Warlock use to keep dh in check and top deck.
Yeah, and attached is Rogue. Is there a big minion on the board I have to deal with? No worries, imma just generate myself a Hex. And this is just one example! They have value for days. At this point I honestly auto-concede.
All you need to beat DH is adapt. Choose a proper deck and tech it in accordance. Rogue is just a mess. 0 cost cards, tons of value, early cards generation, like Coin Miscreant or the 5 health 2-drop, which you HAVE TO kill. What is this? What were they even thinking? You say DH has no weak spots. Where are Rogues apart from the fact you can aggro them to the ground by being forced to play literally a Face deck?
I am tired of this shit. Galakrond Rogue looks unbeatable to me, unless I pick a deck specifically to deal with them. No Tier 2 even stands a chance. And I don't want to play Face Hunter or Bomb Warrior (which sucks against anything else). I am not memeing with my decks, I am playing solid Tiers 2 - Spell Druid, Highlander Mage, Highlander DH. And I have to concede vs Rogues, not vs DH. I would expect to at least have a chance. I do vs DH, which is apparently sooo broken.
Rogue in some aspects is even more bullshit and people simply don't see it because DH is the main one to hate.
Someone pointed out that almost all classes have high winrate decks in standard so the meta seems healthy.
It isn't easy to determine if a class is good for the meta or not. Is DH really holding back too many decks? Winrates don't seem to reflect that. More importantly, is DH holding back decks that are a natural counter to rogue? Not sure as I don't play standard.
This! Been complaining against Gala Rogues for months now, but only thing people hate is DH.
Understand 1 thing... If DH wasn't so powerful would someone bat an eye at it? No. It's the new class of course it's powerful!
If it wasn't it would be like you would work hard for something and then everyone shat on your months of work.
Does in it still need a few adjustments? Of course it does, but it doesn't need to be killed.
On the other hand how can a class like Rogue be so favorable against a class like priest which has tons of removal? Never was until this point.
People say that DH has alot of face damage in 1 turn. Try getting by with your first hand being 2 warglaives and 2 priestess and tell me if you still win. You won't.
On the other hand rogue has secrets, has removal up the ass, has beefyish minions, has face damage, the legendaries when played are bonkers. A Metamorphosis and Kayn don't usually make such a swing turn compared to cards like Vancleef, Gala or even Togwaggle.
My opinion? Fix the top 3 decks with the following:
Skull of Gul'dan: Outcast: Reduce the cost by 2 instead of 3
Raging Felscreamer; Reduce the demon by 1 or make it like a 3/3. A 4/4 minion with that effect makes it a bit too sticky to deal with especially when next turn comes priestess.
Priestess of Fury doesn't need a nerf because it's a fair card for 7 (maximum make it a 6/6) but a bit too much for 5.
Blackjack Stunner: Make it a 2 or 3 mana because when you have a secret like Bamboozle you don't want to trigger it, it's easy to stay on board.
Shadowjeweler Hanar: We already had this problem with EVIL Miscreant. Trust me. A 2 mana 1/5 is way better than a 2/3 or a 3/2 because it's way stickier and we shouldn't have such sticky minions on the early game. Make it at least a 1/4 like Miscreant.
Faceless Corruptor: Make it a 6 mana card. Let me give you the example of Reckless Mummy which i think is a great card (or at least used to be). It is guaranteed the mummy will die. But with corruptor in rogue you will never play it alone and both of them stay on board on turn 5/6. And the mummy is a class clard which should be a bit better than neutral cards.
Heistbaron Togwaggle: Should need two lackeys to get the treasure, It's too much of a payoff for such an easy requirement. Marin the Fox (the og treasure guy ) sucked a big one but this went too far.
Risky Skipper or Armorsmith: Raise 1 mana in either of this cards but also raise their attack by 1... They are too much power of a power enabler when combined because with only two cards you clear an entire board of 1 health minions and still gain armor. The rest of the deck seems fine and not too unbalanced.
Now i have some suggestions for some buffs to raise the stakes a bit for the other classes:
Corrupt Elementalist and Invocation of Frost : Should be back their original state. Shaman is in a lowpoint in his history (i think it has the lowest wintrates in 5 years) and the more troubleful card in that pack of cards was Dragon's Pack and that is fine the way it is. This way it woudn't be the opressive powerhouse of the early day and could easily give DH/Rogue and Warrior a run for their money.
Mana Wyrm: For the love of god bring back this card to 1 mana. I don't even understand why it got nerfed in the first place because it was never him the problem but the cards that enable him. At least a 1 mana 1/2 would be much more rewarding that a 2 mana 1/3 that nowdays gets easily destroyed by turn 3.
And that are my nerf/buff suggestions. I think this way most classes would see more play in 1 way or another and other classes i didn't mentioned would see play because the strongest decks wouldn't be so strong, making these classes more competitive.
Please let me know what you think about my suggestions. Thank you and have a good day :)