I been doing a "Why" series for a few weeks now where i talk about an issue and discuss based on facts and opinions. this is not a salty thread and would love to keep doing these, so if you have any topics you want me to discuss in the future im happy to research them so just DM me.
We are looking at the 2 classes which seem to be at the bottom of the pile this expansion. Now these classes do have decks which can see play but compared to most classes which win rate. Lets look into the reason why:
1: They have the Worst card draws of most classes
Now keep this in mind that Priest and shaman both struggle alot with drawing cards, however they both have good playable decks tier 3 and up with Totem Shaman and Resurrect Priest with 50% + winrates so i am not including them on the list (Source: https://hsreplay.net/meta/?hl=en#tab=archetypes). However, Paladin and warrior both have very little card draw in the class compared to every other class at the top like Rogue, Demon hunter, Mage and warlock. This can easily be looked back at the post made about class identify ( https://playhearthstone.com/en-gb/news/23014810) where they listed what a class should be good at and what it should not: Eg priest can't draw very well, but it is really good at creating value by coping cards. Now Warrior does the weakness being card draw and Paladin is not mentioned, however the gap between them and other classes in the meta suggests drawing cards in a card game is pretty dam good! Warlocks and Demon hunters have the ability to draw their entire decks, while paladin and warrior's who both have great control cards from Outlands, cant draw fast enough to answer anything. After they removed Acolyte of Pain as a good neutral draw, these classes find it almost impossible to draw cards and are forced to run almost any form of draw they can. They both are seen by blizzard as classes who can deal with minions and print cards to do that, however they can't draw these cards fast enough. There should be a form of balance between keeping their card draw weak and limited, but proving them options to draw some cards, while demon hunter and warlock have great control cards and at least 1 card per expansion to draw multiply cards.
2: Their Archetypes are supported poorly or supported at the wrong time
Paladin: Great Mech support from year of the dragon and from year of the Raven, yet once Boomsday is gone, Blizzard does not support it in the first expansion of the year, making is really bad in standard. Instead They re-print murlocs which Paladin has limited support in standard for and a new Libram archetype. The issue is this, why can't blizzard give some cards to paladin which supports one of its strengths? Dragons are another thing that seems to be a good class identity, but they did not get a dragon or any support from this expansion.
Warrior: Seem to get alot of Rush and Taunt cards, yet they lost their rush package in Witchwood this year and their main taunt support cards are limited and their best support are in wild like Fire Plume's Heart. They have no lackey cards which work of eachother and just generate random lackey and just have to play them unlike shaman, Warlock and rogue. They have lost their dragon package and Mech package.
The theme is: The classes have multiply directions, just lacking solid support in standard. If warrior had gotten a rush support card or Paladin a really good mech, it could have made some difference instead of random cards which suit a little bit of everything which they do.
3: They have really weak hero power
Paladin: They have summoning a 1/1, but in standard have no support from that at all. Most classes have strong hero powers or support for it, however paladins have no impact on the turn they play it. Compare it to Demon hunters hero power who can constantly kill the silver hand recruits for half the cost to summon them. I know Baku the Mooneater caused alot of issues as well as Kobold silver hand support, however now could be a time to make their hero power better by printing support cards.
Warrior: A better hero power that Paladin, but the same issue falls with having no support for it and being a less flexible one that priests healing. Gaining armour is amazing in some situations, but when other classes are drawing their decks, almost gaining some Armour etc it comes across as weak and sometimes you dont even need to press it as you are desperately trying to use the mana to control the board.
The theme is: Both hero powers need some support. Cards like hunter got in Decent of dragons which make using your hero power good.
Conclusion:
I think lack of draw, poorly supported archetypes and weak hero powers make these classes really weak in standard. understand that there is always going to be a bottom class, however these classes are almost unplayable on ladder as they relie too heavily or luck and drawing the best hands they can. They need cards which support one archetype at a time or a new archetype which has synergy with excising cards.
Paladin and warrior need massive buffs in 3 or more cards, very agressive ones like equality return to 2 manas and Lay Of Hands cost 5 manas or something like that.
Mage and shaman buff in one card should help too.
Priest and DH need to be nerfed to the ground, nothing less than completely erradicated out of existence!!!
i did not know that until i had a second look at the data. it does seem they do have a 50+ winrate, but looking at the official tier decks of this month, they still are not doing amazing with their official deck being at the bottom of tier 3.
I think highlander warrior is at least playable in diamond. A rather control version is more successful overall I believe. There is a version i have been tinkering with the quest that feels absolutely amazing when you dont get horrible mulligan against an aggro deck
i did not know that until i had a second look at the data. it does seem they do have a 50+ winrate, but looking at the official tier decks of this month, they still are not doing amazing with their official deck being at the bottom of tier 3.
I think the Murloc Paladin deck* was discovered very recently, so the sample size is probably small compared to decks that has been played more. It is very strong at the moment and I am sure it will gain a lot of popularity in the days to come.
*disclaimer: I am talking about the current list in the current meta. I am not implying that Murloc Paladin is a brand new archtype for Paladin.
I am a main warrior, got to diamond 4 this season and now i can't get past it. I've been trying all warrior decks except the egg one because i don't have enough dust to craft the leggies ( i'm kind of a new player, was playing since beta but i came back few months ago on a fresh account ) and so far i can say that warrior is completely useless. Out of all the decks that i have tried, the only ones that can be played but still with a very bad wr (~50%) are Highlander and the one with taunts or full of rush minions and even so, they are struggling really hard versus most of the decks in the meta. The biggest problem in my opinion is that warrior got no support for drawing cards like other classes do, i mean, Corsair's Cache is nice, but it's a 2 mana play that can give you a 3 mana Livewire Lance which doesn't do too much if you get swarmed really hard in 3 rounds ( which is the case vs hunter / dh). The class struggles very hard because you rely on just Jones for some card draw (if your opp got a weapon) and in some cases Shield Block, which is harsh. Another big problem is the lack of good 1-2 drops for warrior, and that's another issue, for example the imprisoned Gan'arg, it gives you a fiery axe in the 3rd round, which is complete trash considering that you can play a livewire lance at that mana poll. I'm not even talking about playing Galakrond, which got absolutely demolished since the lack of Eternium Rover and Town Crier. Also the lack of dealing with some big minions is another problem, take for example de DH demon with 6/7 stats doing 6 damage at the end of a turn, and just imagine having a Bulwark of Azzinoth since last turn, you get completely trashed and you have no way of countering that card at 6-7 mana...you got no rush minion to do the thing, the mummy does just 6, playing a siamat versus it sucks and you got no other option just to face 6 damage from the minion and 6 damage at the end of each turn.
1. I don't know where this myth about Warrior having bad card draw started but it's demonstrably false. It doesn't have as much as Rogue, Warlock (which is basically just it's hero power) or Druid, but it has far more than enough to get by.
2. Your second point is true of just about every class in Hearthstone except for Rogue.
Bottom line is that Blizzard hasn't compensated for lack of card draw in Priest, Warrior, Shaman and Paladin while giving broken draw to Druid, DH, Warlock and Rogue. It is no surprise that most top classes are from this category than the former.
"Warrior struggling" Just look at tournament lists, there's alot of Bomb and Egg warriors. Warrior is not at top tier like Warlock and DH but it's still alive
Murloc Paladin is wrecking the ladder at the moment.
did not see one since the expansion
I've seen a few, even lost to one when I could not draw mana ramp and put 7 mana taunt quickly enough. They win only when you are not prepared for early Aggro but otherwise they are can do nothing after turn 5.
For warrior is just an unfavored meta, the class gets hard countered by druid and priest and it lost warpath so its harder to punish early boards from DH.
Paladin on the other hand has the worst basic/classic set in the game rn, ever since losing Divine Favor and Equality, Paladin can barely be considered a real class anymore.
For warrior is just an unfavored meta, the class gets hard countered by druid and priest and it lost warpath so its harder to punish early boards from DH.
Paladin on the other hand has the worst basic/classic set in the game rn, ever since losing Divine Favor and Equality, Paladin can barely be considered a real class anymore.
In wild nobody expects Taunt Warrior and you deny most of the decks any chance to do anything. You know what is really funny? People complain about netdecking but I see almost nobody playing non-meta decks. In wild you can get really creative and surprise people with something they are not prepared for. Last month I got to Legend with custom adapted Jade Druid and this month with Taunt Warrior. Nobody is playing Taunt Warrior anymore there because it has lost viability half a year ago but in this expansion it's got new supplies and it's really good.
Paladin, at least in its aggro version, relies on keeping a board since early game. It's almost impossible now with the amount of 0-1 mana removals that DH has at disposal. DH has pretty much buried Paladin in its aggro version. I am not sure about control Paladin, haven't seen one in ages.
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I been doing a "Why" series for a few weeks now where i talk about an issue and discuss based on facts and opinions. this is not a salty thread and would love to keep doing these, so if you have any topics you want me to discuss in the future im happy to research them so just DM me.
We are looking at the 2 classes which seem to be at the bottom of the pile this expansion. Now these classes do have decks which can see play but compared to most classes which win rate. Lets look into the reason why:
1: They have the Worst card draws of most classes
Now keep this in mind that Priest and shaman both struggle alot with drawing cards, however they both have good playable decks tier 3 and up with Totem Shaman and Resurrect Priest with 50% + winrates so i am not including them on the list (Source: https://hsreplay.net/meta/?hl=en#tab=archetypes). However, Paladin and warrior both have very little card draw in the class compared to every other class at the top like Rogue, Demon hunter, Mage and warlock. This can easily be looked back at the post made about class identify ( https://playhearthstone.com/en-gb/news/23014810) where they listed what a class should be good at and what it should not: Eg priest can't draw very well, but it is really good at creating value by coping cards. Now Warrior does the weakness being card draw and Paladin is not mentioned, however the gap between them and other classes in the meta suggests drawing cards in a card game is pretty dam good! Warlocks and Demon hunters have the ability to draw their entire decks, while paladin and warrior's who both have great control cards from Outlands, cant draw fast enough to answer anything. After they removed Acolyte of Pain as a good neutral draw, these classes find it almost impossible to draw cards and are forced to run almost any form of draw they can. They both are seen by blizzard as classes who can deal with minions and print cards to do that, however they can't draw these cards fast enough. There should be a form of balance between keeping their card draw weak and limited, but proving them options to draw some cards, while demon hunter and warlock have great control cards and at least 1 card per expansion to draw multiply cards.
2: Their Archetypes are supported poorly or supported at the wrong time
Paladin: Great Mech support from year of the dragon and from year of the Raven, yet once Boomsday is gone, Blizzard does not support it in the first expansion of the year, making is really bad in standard. Instead They re-print murlocs which Paladin has limited support in standard for and a new Libram archetype. The issue is this, why can't blizzard give some cards to paladin which supports one of its strengths? Dragons are another thing that seems to be a good class identity, but they did not get a dragon or any support from this expansion.
Warrior: Seem to get alot of Rush and Taunt cards, yet they lost their rush package in Witchwood this year and their main taunt support cards are limited and their best support are in wild like Fire Plume's Heart. They have no lackey cards which work of eachother and just generate random lackey and just have to play them unlike shaman, Warlock and rogue. They have lost their dragon package and Mech package.
The theme is: The classes have multiply directions, just lacking solid support in standard. If warrior had gotten a rush support card or Paladin a really good mech, it could have made some difference instead of random cards which suit a little bit of everything which they do.
3: They have really weak hero power
Paladin: They have summoning a 1/1, but in standard have no support from that at all. Most classes have strong hero powers or support for it, however paladins have no impact on the turn they play it. Compare it to Demon hunters hero power who can constantly kill the silver hand recruits for half the cost to summon them. I know Baku the Mooneater caused alot of issues as well as Kobold silver hand support, however now could be a time to make their hero power better by printing support cards.
Warrior: A better hero power that Paladin, but the same issue falls with having no support for it and being a less flexible one that priests healing. Gaining armour is amazing in some situations, but when other classes are drawing their decks, almost gaining some Armour etc it comes across as weak and sometimes you dont even need to press it as you are desperately trying to use the mana to control the board.
The theme is: Both hero powers need some support. Cards like hunter got in Decent of dragons which make using your hero power good.
Conclusion:
I think lack of draw, poorly supported archetypes and weak hero powers make these classes really weak in standard. understand that there is always going to be a bottom class, however these classes are almost unplayable on ladder as they relie too heavily or luck and drawing the best hands they can. They need cards which support one archetype at a time or a new archetype which has synergy with excising cards.
Murloc Paladin is wrecking the ladder at the moment.
Paladin and warrior need massive buffs in 3 or more cards, very agressive ones like equality return to 2 manas and Lay Of Hands cost 5 manas or something like that.
Mage and shaman buff in one card should help too.
Priest and DH need to be nerfed to the ground, nothing less than completely erradicated out of existence!!!
i did not know that until i had a second look at the data. it does seem they do have a 50+ winrate, but looking at the official tier decks of this month, they still are not doing amazing with their official deck being at the bottom of tier 3.
https://hsreplay.net/archetypes/338/pure-paladin - has over 50% popularity, which i will take as the most played paladin deck.
We Paladins rn:
I think highlander warrior is at least playable in diamond. A rather control version is more successful overall I believe. There is a version i have been tinkering with the quest that feels absolutely amazing when you dont get horrible mulligan against an aggro deck
I think the Murloc Paladin deck* was discovered very recently, so the sample size is probably small compared to decks that has been played more. It is very strong at the moment and I am sure it will gain a lot of popularity in the days to come.
*disclaimer: I am talking about the current list in the current meta. I am not implying that Murloc Paladin is a brand new archtype for Paladin.
I am a main warrior, got to diamond 4 this season and now i can't get past it. I've been trying all warrior decks except the egg one because i don't have enough dust to craft the leggies ( i'm kind of a new player, was playing since beta but i came back few months ago on a fresh account ) and so far i can say that warrior is completely useless. Out of all the decks that i have tried, the only ones that can be played but still with a very bad wr (~50%) are Highlander and the one with taunts or full of rush minions and even so, they are struggling really hard versus most of the decks in the meta. The biggest problem in my opinion is that warrior got no support for drawing cards like other classes do, i mean, Corsair's Cache is nice, but it's a 2 mana play that can give you a 3 mana Livewire Lance which doesn't do too much if you get swarmed really hard in 3 rounds ( which is the case vs hunter / dh). The class struggles very hard because you rely on just Jones for some card draw (if your opp got a weapon) and in some cases Shield Block, which is harsh. Another big problem is the lack of good 1-2 drops for warrior, and that's another issue, for example the imprisoned Gan'arg, it gives you a fiery axe in the 3rd round, which is complete trash considering that you can play a livewire lance at that mana poll. I'm not even talking about playing Galakrond, which got absolutely demolished since the lack of Eternium Rover and Town Crier. Also the lack of dealing with some big minions is another problem, take for example de DH demon with 6/7 stats doing 6 damage at the end of a turn, and just imagine having a Bulwark of Azzinoth since last turn, you get completely trashed and you have no way of countering that card at 6-7 mana...you got no rush minion to do the thing, the mummy does just 6, playing a siamat versus it sucks and you got no other option just to face 6 damage from the minion and 6 damage at the end of each turn.
1. I don't know where this myth about Warrior having bad card draw started but it's demonstrably false. It doesn't have as much as Rogue, Warlock (which is basically just it's hero power) or Druid, but it has far more than enough to get by.
2. Your second point is true of just about every class in Hearthstone except for Rogue.
Bottom line is that Blizzard hasn't compensated for lack of card draw in Priest, Warrior, Shaman and Paladin while giving broken draw to Druid, DH, Warlock and Rogue. It is no surprise that most top classes are from this category than the former.
Warrior got enough card draw.
Also Priest can't complain. They might have not much draw, but have top tier decks.
Warlock allways had good draw (hero power).
Rogue got as much draw cards as Warrior if you ask me.
Only Shaman and Paladin (Paladin the worst i guess) is a bit shy on draw imo, but i might even be wrong there.
"Warrior struggling"
Just look at tournament lists, there's alot of Bomb and Egg warriors. Warrior is not at top tier like Warlock and DH but it's still alive
did not see one since the expansion
Paladin's lack of draw is awful.
Maybe, maybe, Murloc Paladin has a shot if DH takes a big nerf.
I don't think Pure Paladin / Libram Paladin has any hope at this point.
I've seen a few, even lost to one when I could not draw mana ramp and put 7 mana taunt quickly enough. They win only when you are not prepared for early Aggro but otherwise they are can do nothing after turn 5.
For warrior is just an unfavored meta, the class gets hard countered by druid and priest and it lost warpath so its harder to punish early boards from DH.
Paladin on the other hand has the worst basic/classic set in the game rn, ever since losing Divine Favor and Equality, Paladin can barely be considered a real class anymore.
In wild nobody expects Taunt Warrior and you deny most of the decks any chance to do anything. You know what is really funny? People complain about netdecking but I see almost nobody playing non-meta decks. In wild you can get really creative and surprise people with something they are not prepared for. Last month I got to Legend with custom adapted Jade Druid and this month with Taunt Warrior. Nobody is playing Taunt Warrior anymore there because it has lost viability half a year ago but in this expansion it's got new supplies and it's really good.
Paladin, at least in its aggro version, relies on keeping a board since early game. It's almost impossible now with the amount of 0-1 mana removals that DH has at disposal. DH has pretty much buried Paladin in its aggro version. I am not sure about control Paladin, haven't seen one in ages.