Just to be clear, I do think some cards needed a nerf, I'm just not sure they targeted the right ones or made good changes. For reference, I'm playing on EU server at very low legend ranks. Everyone is ranting about DH in general and not about a specific deck, but up to yesterday there were actually three different archetypes running around:
- Midrange: definitely the most popular and probably the strongest list, running a somewhat balanced 1 to 7 curve closing with Imprisoned Antaen, Metamorphosis and Priestess of Fury. They run all the nerfed cards.
- Swarm full aggro: the least popular at my ranks and I believe the weaker list. They run a more aggressive low cost minion package that included things like the Wrathscale Naga + Coordinated Strike combo, Frenzied Felwing and more 1-drops. From what I've seen they run NONE of the cards nerfed except for Skull of Gul'dan.
- Combo: lots of draws into Kael'thas Sunstrider + Twin Slice + Inner Demon X2 yada yada I guess everyone is familiar with this by now. Second most popular and almost as strong as Midrange, they do NOT run Priestess and Antaen but of course run the other two.
Just to be clear, there is (was?) no deck that did ALL those things at once and did it well. You were NOT getting owned in the same game by Naga combos + Antaen + Priestess + a 20 dmg Inner Demon combo. There were some hybrid midrange lists running the Inner Demon combo, but they are not nearly as strong as specializing in one things or the other and often ended up with a clunky hand (yes I tried them).
I will also admit that I like the Combo deck a lot so I may be a bit biased toward it. The reason I don't like these nerfs is because they have basically no impact on Swarm DH, little impact on Midrange (which again was the strongest) and a lot of impact on Combo. Skull of Gul'dan at 6 is very clunky now, not just because it comes later (in fact I'd say it's almost not an issue), but mainly because it's too hard to manage your hand size now. The extra durability on Aldrachi Warblades was needed for early survival, also because with the Combo deck you have to save Twin Slices for the finisher, while Midrange can use them more freely and has basically no issue with the nerfed durability.
Imho they should have targeted the Midrange and Swarm decks, which are absolutely more cancerous and braindead to play, in particular nerfing Priestess and Battlefiend. I'm also not so sure about HOW they nerfed Antaen, the issue with him was the unstoppable, ridiculous damage on wakeup into threatening another 10 damage right after, in particular with Priestess clearing up whatever was left after Antaen's BS. It can also still come down on turn 5 if curved into from Raging Felscreamer, so if the issue was he hitting the board too early - it's not resolved. The only nerf I agree with is Eye Beam, 2 mana discount instead of 3 is definitely more fair.
My guess would be that the nerfs are only temporary. They're trying to reduce DH's winrate to something more reasonable, but over the next couple of weeks they'll review all the data and decide how to balance the class in the long term. Just a guess, of course.
I think non interactive and easy to obtain combo decks are one of the biggest issues, we are playing a game where you can't stop what your opponent is doing... so I'm quite happy with the changes. These decks in classes where you can draw twice as fast as a control deck should go.
for Combo the hardest blow is the nerf on the weapon; Skull at 6 mana is still strong and anyway it was usually discounted to zero mana thanks to the Sunstrider. Another bad thing ( and weird ), when you draw the discounted ( thanks to Skull ) Eye beam lazor and it happens to be "outcasted", his mana cost is not zero anymore but 1 mana. Sucks hard.
There are some fallacies in your reasoning behind some statements. Overall however, I think they tackled the right ones, for the simple reason that Demon Hunter likes to chain cards together in nearly unstoppable streaks. The nerfs break up some very strong chains, like the Skull-and-Beam chains, but also force the hand of the DH in some cases, having to pick between Antaen and Priestess of Fury for example. It's also notably affecting the Kael'thas chain, one of the strongest near-OTK's that the class has.
As for your fallacies, most notable is your final sentence: "in particular with Priestess clearing up whatever was left after Antaen's BS. It can also still come down on turn 5 if curved into from Raging Felscreamer, so if the issue was he hitting the board too early - it's not resolved." The whole clear that Demon Hunter did, in playing Priestess before or after Antaen, is significantly harder now. Playing her after Antaen means floating mana, which is steadily underrated as to how damaging that is to one's curve. Your statement about Antaen being able to still come down early with the help of Felscreamer means it becomes conditional; always far harder to pull off than with an unnerfed Demon. And again, it forces the hand of the DH into making an extra decision.
Another one is your sentence regarding Skull: "Skull of Gul'dan at 6 is very clunky now, not just because it comes later (in fact I'd say it's almost not an issue), but mainly because it's too hard to manage your hand size now." This is the whole point about the nerfs! Making Skull clunky is a good thing, as the opposite of clunky was 'extremely good'. Hand size is supposed to be the hardest decision-making process in Combo decks. Previously, coming back to those chains, Demon Hunter could just draw and draw and draw, because they had sufficient mana to basically run through their entire deck by turn 10. That's not an exaggeration by the way; I've played against Demon Hunters that had NO cards left in their deck by turn 9 or 10. That's insane. As an added bonus; I think it comes down to the core of Demon Hunter even more; needing to be good at hand management to get as much out of Outcast as possible.
Last one I want to point out is your first paragraph, mainly focused on how ladder didn't have a sight on which decks Demon Hunter actually used. The problem was that it is so soon after the expansion dropped, the decks aren't even optimized yet. You could literally see winrates of other class drop further and further, while Demon Hunter stabilized more and more. The nerfs shouldn't have taken much longer, before everyone was literally forced to play the same class.
All in all, nerfs are supposed to force players to make more decisions, both quantitative as qualitative. Skull still feels strong at 6-mana, but in combination with the nerf to Eye Beam, it stops the chains that allowed Demon Hunter to draw even more. As a simple example, we all know the situations where Demon Hunter drew 3 on turn 5, then played Eye Beam instantly, then played the 2/1 Outcast runner-dude, drew some more, and just went on in the chain even further. With the nerfs, that can't happen until turn 7. The OTK was reached too swiftly, and we all know that's the whole point about achieving OTK; you need to have time to pull it off. It's the reason why Aggro is strong versus Combo. With Demon Hunter, that went out the window.
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Playing meme decks/characters does not entitle you to call a meta bad.
No matter what, each of these deck types was having a winrate over 70%. ANd if there would be less mirror matches it would easily be 80%+ for each deck.
The first wave of nerfs so far is still a joke. Still facerolling through arena when you get a DH with the same cards, standard almost a safe win in a non mirror match. The win rate just dropped slightly below 70% in average for the gamers after the nerfs.
ANd not for forget: The class dominates WIld where all classes have all their cards for tons of years. That is the biggest sign this class is still broken and need a lot more nerfs.
OTK DH was sooooo good yesterday ( I climbed almost to legend with it without much trouble ), now it feels very cluncky and unreliable. Too bad because it was a blast to play, oh well.
Well done Blizz for acting so fast. I would guess that these were problem cards from testing before DH even went live, and the nerfs were already decided on if they were needed. Everyone had their fun in the first 36 hours and now we'll hopefully see more deck variety and a meta where DH features and doesn't dominate.
Well done Blizz for acting so fast. I would guess that these were problem cards from testing before DH even went live, and the nerfs were already decided on if they were needed. Everyone had their fun in the first 36 hours and now we'll hopefully see more deck variety and a meta where DH features and doesn't dominate.
Still dominating. It's going to take ALOT more than that.
Well done Blizz for acting so fast. I would guess that these were problem cards from testing before DH even went live, and the nerfs were already decided on if they were needed. Everyone had their fun in the first 36 hours and now we'll hopefully see more deck variety and a meta where DH features and doesn't dominate.
I assume this is an Ironic post? Cause if you believe that....
Well I've already played against more classes this morning than I did Tuesday night and all day Wednesday. DH might still be OP but it's slightly less so now and already feels less bad to play against, and there's more variety. Top decking Eye Beam feels so much better at 1 mana.
As for your fallacies, most notable is your final sentence: "in particular with Priestess clearing up whatever was left after Antaen's BS. It can also still come down on turn 5 if curved into from Raging Felscreamer, so if the issue was he hitting the board too early - it's not resolved." The whole clear that Demon Hunter did, in playing Priestess before or after Antaen, is significantly harder now. Playing her after Antaen means floating mana, which is steadily underrated as to how damaging that is to one's curve. Your statement about Antaen being able to still come down early with the help of Felscreamer means it becomes conditional; always far harder to pull off than with an unnerfed Demon. And again, it forces the hand of the DH into making an extra decision.
Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not following your Priestess / Antean reasoning. If you played Raging Felscreamer on turn 4 and have both Priestess and Antaen on turn 5, they are both VERY valid plays depending on board state. Ideally you want to play Antaen first if the board isn't scary. You'd be floating 1 mana, you really think that's an issue in DH? With a 1mana hero power and 0 cost cards?
My point was: if Antaen hitting the board on turn 5 was gamewinning on the spot its own, the earliest it came come down is still turn 5. Of course it's more conditional now, but do you seriously believe it's that hard to pull off? It's a simple 4-5 curve. IMHO the issue with Antaen is what he DOES, not how early he comes down - and the nerf didn't touch this. Nerfing his stats and/or the damage on wakeup would have had more sense imho.
This is the whole point about the nerfs! Making Skull clunky is a good thing, as the opposite of clunky was 'extremely good'. Hand size is supposed to be the hardest decision-making process in Combo decks.
I agree on principle, I'm just not sure the kind of nerf they did was the way to go. I'll re elaborate what I meant: Skull of Gul'dan is busted in the Midrange and Aggro decks because it allows for ridiculous discounted plays on the same or next turn (some of which you mentioned). And also allow them to refill their hand when they run out of steam. These massive swings will just come down a turn later, but I guarantee you they will still be ridiculous and oppressive in those decks because of the discounts. Skull imho won't really be clunky in those decks and will be played regardless because of this swinging potential and hand refilling. The nerf just hit hard the Combo deck (again, I'm admitting my bias here). Nerfing the discounts was more sensible than nerfing the cost.
As for the Combo vs Aggro thing, this is just my opinion but: it's true that Combo DH does (did?) very well against aggro as you said, which is atypical for a combo archetype... mainly thanks to Aldrachi Warblades. But at the same time, it doesn't do as good against midrange-controllish decks that runs mid to big sized minions, which is something Combo decks typically do well against. This is because you have to remove them by hitting them with your face - not only meaning a lot of damage taken (especially with the Warblades nerf) but it's the same damage that would be used for the combo ie. the amount of damage the deck has is finite. This is especially relevant for taunt minions (combo doesn't run Kayn btw). Embiggen Druid comes to mind as a horrible matchup, for example.
So the Aggro > Combo > Control balance wasn't necessarily out of the window, it was just different. I think other classes' decks had to be refined for the new meta, especially after losing key cards with the rotation, to make a better evaluation on the situation.
Well done Blizz for acting so fast. I would guess that these were problem cards from testing before DH even went live, and the nerfs were already decided on if they were needed. Everyone had their fun in the first 36 hours and now we'll hopefully see more deck variety and a meta where DH features and doesn't dominate.
Still dominating. It's going to take ALOT more than that.
I've beaten 2 Demon Hunters, out of 2 played, with a HL Control Warrior list, this morning. Yesterday, I went 0-8. You can tell me anything you like, but these nerfs have impact. Give it a little more time, for crying out loud.
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Playing meme decks/characters does not entitle you to call a meta bad.
Well done Blizz for acting so fast. I would guess that these were problem cards from testing before DH even went live, and the nerfs were already decided on if they were needed. Everyone had their fun in the first 36 hours and now we'll hopefully see more deck variety and a meta where DH features and doesn't dominate.
Still dominating. It's going to take ALOT more than that.
I've beaten 2 Demon Hunters, out of 2 played, with a HL Control Warrior list, this morning. Yesterday, I went 0-8. You can tell me anything you like, but these nerfs have impact. Give it a little more time, for crying out loud.
people are simply netdecking,bro. And after nerfs they play with the unupdated lists. Great time!
It's quite obvious what they did. They just looked at the winrate % per played card. And these cards had the highest winrate when played. Up the cost of all 4 of them with 1 mana, and see the winrate lower a little bit.
It's a fast small solution to bring the winrate down a little bit, while observing the data for further adjustments. I'm happy with this, since it's less likely to overnerf DH and at the same time have other classes to opportunity to play the game in the meantime.
No matter what, each of these deck types was having a winrate over 70%. ANd if there would be less mirror matches it would easily be 80%+ for each deck.
The first wave of nerfs so far is still a joke. Still facerolling through arena when you get a DH with the same cards, standard almost a safe win in a non mirror match. The win rate just dropped slightly below 70% in average for the gamers after the nerfs.
ANd not for forget: The class dominates WIld where all classes have all their cards for tons of years. That is the biggest sign this class is still broken and need a lot more nerfs.
Blizz will nerf DH alot more, next balance patch is a week from now.
yep. so many cards and decks to try. glad that escalated so quick. But i hope they won't overreact like they did with 3 impactful nerfs with shaman on DoD which honestly choked the class.
for Combo the hardest blow is the nerf on the weapon; Skull at 6 mana is still strong and anyway it was usually discounted to zero mana thanks to the Sunstrider. Another bad thing ( and weird ), when you draw the discounted ( thanks to Skull ) Eye beam lazor and it happens to be "outcasted", his mana cost is not zero anymore but 1 mana. Sucks hard.
Didn't know about that Eye Beam interaction, hasn't happened to me yet. So basically, if drawn from Skull, it would cost 0 if played "normally" and 1 if it's in Outcast? Lol that makes no sense, hopefully they'll fix that.
And yeah the weapon nerf is probably harder I agree.
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Just to be clear, I do think some cards needed a nerf, I'm just not sure they targeted the right ones or made good changes. For reference, I'm playing on EU server at very low legend ranks. Everyone is ranting about DH in general and not about a specific deck, but up to yesterday there were actually three different archetypes running around:
- Midrange: definitely the most popular and probably the strongest list, running a somewhat balanced 1 to 7 curve closing with Imprisoned Antaen, Metamorphosis and Priestess of Fury. They run all the nerfed cards.
- Swarm full aggro: the least popular at my ranks and I believe the weaker list. They run a more aggressive low cost minion package that included things like the Wrathscale Naga + Coordinated Strike combo, Frenzied Felwing and more 1-drops. From what I've seen they run NONE of the cards nerfed except for Skull of Gul'dan.
- Combo: lots of draws into Kael'thas Sunstrider + Twin Slice + Inner Demon X2 yada yada I guess everyone is familiar with this by now. Second most popular and almost as strong as Midrange, they do NOT run Priestess and Antaen but of course run the other two.
Just to be clear, there is (was?) no deck that did ALL those things at once and did it well. You were NOT getting owned in the same game by Naga combos + Antaen + Priestess + a 20 dmg Inner Demon combo. There were some hybrid midrange lists running the Inner Demon combo, but they are not nearly as strong as specializing in one things or the other and often ended up with a clunky hand (yes I tried them).
I will also admit that I like the Combo deck a lot so I may be a bit biased toward it. The reason I don't like these nerfs is because they have basically no impact on Swarm DH, little impact on Midrange (which again was the strongest) and a lot of impact on Combo. Skull of Gul'dan at 6 is very clunky now, not just because it comes later (in fact I'd say it's almost not an issue), but mainly because it's too hard to manage your hand size now. The extra durability on Aldrachi Warblades was needed for early survival, also because with the Combo deck you have to save Twin Slices for the finisher, while Midrange can use them more freely and has basically no issue with the nerfed durability.
Imho they should have targeted the Midrange and Swarm decks, which are absolutely more cancerous and braindead to play, in particular nerfing Priestess and Battlefiend. I'm also not so sure about HOW they nerfed Antaen, the issue with him was the unstoppable, ridiculous damage on wakeup into threatening another 10 damage right after, in particular with Priestess clearing up whatever was left after Antaen's BS. It can also still come down on turn 5 if curved into from Raging Felscreamer, so if the issue was he hitting the board too early - it's not resolved. The only nerf I agree with is Eye Beam, 2 mana discount instead of 3 is definitely more fair.
My guess would be that the nerfs are only temporary. They're trying to reduce DH's winrate to something more reasonable, but over the next couple of weeks they'll review all the data and decide how to balance the class in the long term. Just a guess, of course.
I think non interactive and easy to obtain combo decks are one of the biggest issues, we are playing a game where you can't stop what your opponent is doing... so I'm quite happy with the changes. These decks in classes where you can draw twice as fast as a control deck should go.
for Combo the hardest blow is the nerf on the weapon; Skull at 6 mana is still strong and anyway it was usually discounted to zero mana thanks to the Sunstrider. Another bad thing ( and weird ), when you draw the discounted ( thanks to Skull ) Eye beam lazor and it happens to be "outcasted", his mana cost is not zero anymore but 1 mana. Sucks hard.
There are some fallacies in your reasoning behind some statements. Overall however, I think they tackled the right ones, for the simple reason that Demon Hunter likes to chain cards together in nearly unstoppable streaks. The nerfs break up some very strong chains, like the Skull-and-Beam chains, but also force the hand of the DH in some cases, having to pick between Antaen and Priestess of Fury for example. It's also notably affecting the Kael'thas chain, one of the strongest near-OTK's that the class has.
As for your fallacies, most notable is your final sentence: "in particular with Priestess clearing up whatever was left after Antaen's BS. It can also still come down on turn 5 if curved into from Raging Felscreamer, so if the issue was he hitting the board too early - it's not resolved." The whole clear that Demon Hunter did, in playing Priestess before or after Antaen, is significantly harder now. Playing her after Antaen means floating mana, which is steadily underrated as to how damaging that is to one's curve. Your statement about Antaen being able to still come down early with the help of Felscreamer means it becomes conditional; always far harder to pull off than with an unnerfed Demon. And again, it forces the hand of the DH into making an extra decision.
Another one is your sentence regarding Skull: "Skull of Gul'dan at 6 is very clunky now, not just because it comes later (in fact I'd say it's almost not an issue), but mainly because it's too hard to manage your hand size now." This is the whole point about the nerfs! Making Skull clunky is a good thing, as the opposite of clunky was 'extremely good'. Hand size is supposed to be the hardest decision-making process in Combo decks. Previously, coming back to those chains, Demon Hunter could just draw and draw and draw, because they had sufficient mana to basically run through their entire deck by turn 10. That's not an exaggeration by the way; I've played against Demon Hunters that had NO cards left in their deck by turn 9 or 10. That's insane. As an added bonus; I think it comes down to the core of Demon Hunter even more; needing to be good at hand management to get as much out of Outcast as possible.
Last one I want to point out is your first paragraph, mainly focused on how ladder didn't have a sight on which decks Demon Hunter actually used. The problem was that it is so soon after the expansion dropped, the decks aren't even optimized yet. You could literally see winrates of other class drop further and further, while Demon Hunter stabilized more and more. The nerfs shouldn't have taken much longer, before everyone was literally forced to play the same class.
All in all, nerfs are supposed to force players to make more decisions, both quantitative as qualitative. Skull still feels strong at 6-mana, but in combination with the nerf to Eye Beam, it stops the chains that allowed Demon Hunter to draw even more. As a simple example, we all know the situations where Demon Hunter drew 3 on turn 5, then played Eye Beam instantly, then played the 2/1 Outcast runner-dude, drew some more, and just went on in the chain even further. With the nerfs, that can't happen until turn 7. The OTK was reached too swiftly, and we all know that's the whole point about achieving OTK; you need to have time to pull it off. It's the reason why Aggro is strong versus Combo. With Demon Hunter, that went out the window.
Playing meme decks/characters does not entitle you to call a meta bad.
No matter what, each of these deck types was having a winrate over 70%. ANd if there would be less mirror matches it would easily be 80%+ for each deck.
The first wave of nerfs so far is still a joke. Still facerolling through arena when you get a DH with the same cards, standard almost a safe win in a non mirror match. The win rate just dropped slightly below 70% in average for the gamers after the nerfs.
ANd not for forget: The class dominates WIld where all classes have all their cards for tons of years. That is the biggest sign this class is still broken and need a lot more nerfs.
^ very good points.
OTK DH was sooooo good yesterday ( I climbed almost to legend with it without much trouble ), now it feels very cluncky and unreliable. Too bad because it was a blast to play, oh well.
Well done Blizz for acting so fast. I would guess that these were problem cards from testing before DH even went live, and the nerfs were already decided on if they were needed. Everyone had their fun in the first 36 hours and now we'll hopefully see more deck variety and a meta where DH features and doesn't dominate.
Still dominating. It's going to take ALOT more than that.
I assume this is an Ironic post? Cause if you believe that....
I assume this is an Ironic post? Cause if you believe that....
to be honest, those nerfs helped to decrease a number of DH for sometime. There are waaay less now on ladder.
Well I've already played against more classes this morning than I did Tuesday night and all day Wednesday. DH might still be OP but it's slightly less so now and already feels less bad to play against, and there's more variety. Top decking Eye Beam feels so much better at 1 mana.
Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not following your Priestess / Antean reasoning. If you played Raging Felscreamer on turn 4 and have both Priestess and Antaen on turn 5, they are both VERY valid plays depending on board state. Ideally you want to play Antaen first if the board isn't scary. You'd be floating 1 mana, you really think that's an issue in DH? With a 1mana hero power and 0 cost cards?
My point was: if Antaen hitting the board on turn 5 was gamewinning on the spot its own, the earliest it came come down is still turn 5. Of course it's more conditional now, but do you seriously believe it's that hard to pull off? It's a simple 4-5 curve. IMHO the issue with Antaen is what he DOES, not how early he comes down - and the nerf didn't touch this. Nerfing his stats and/or the damage on wakeup would have had more sense imho.
I agree on principle, I'm just not sure the kind of nerf they did was the way to go. I'll re elaborate what I meant: Skull of Gul'dan is busted in the Midrange and Aggro decks because it allows for ridiculous discounted plays on the same or next turn (some of which you mentioned). And also allow them to refill their hand when they run out of steam. These massive swings will just come down a turn later, but I guarantee you they will still be ridiculous and oppressive in those decks because of the discounts. Skull imho won't really be clunky in those decks and will be played regardless because of this swinging potential and hand refilling. The nerf just hit hard the Combo deck (again, I'm admitting my bias here). Nerfing the discounts was more sensible than nerfing the cost.
As for the Combo vs Aggro thing, this is just my opinion but: it's true that Combo DH does (did?) very well against aggro as you said, which is atypical for a combo archetype... mainly thanks to Aldrachi Warblades. But at the same time, it doesn't do as good against midrange-controllish decks that runs mid to big sized minions, which is something Combo decks typically do well against. This is because you have to remove them by hitting them with your face - not only meaning a lot of damage taken (especially with the Warblades nerf) but it's the same damage that would be used for the combo ie. the amount of damage the deck has is finite. This is especially relevant for taunt minions (combo doesn't run Kayn btw). Embiggen Druid comes to mind as a horrible matchup, for example.
So the Aggro > Combo > Control balance wasn't necessarily out of the window, it was just different. I think other classes' decks had to be refined for the new meta, especially after losing key cards with the rotation, to make a better evaluation on the situation.
I've beaten 2 Demon Hunters, out of 2 played, with a HL Control Warrior list, this morning. Yesterday, I went 0-8. You can tell me anything you like, but these nerfs have impact. Give it a little more time, for crying out loud.
Playing meme decks/characters does not entitle you to call a meta bad.
people are simply netdecking,bro. And after nerfs they play with the unupdated lists. Great time!
It's quite obvious what they did. They just looked at the winrate % per played card. And these cards had the highest winrate when played. Up the cost of all 4 of them with 1 mana, and see the winrate lower a little bit.
It's a fast small solution to bring the winrate down a little bit, while observing the data for further adjustments. I'm happy with this, since it's less likely to overnerf DH and at the same time have other classes to opportunity to play the game in the meantime.
Blizz will nerf DH alot more, next balance patch is a week from now.
yep. so many cards and decks to try. glad that escalated so quick. But i hope they won't overreact like they did with 3 impactful nerfs with shaman on DoD which honestly choked the class.
Didn't know about that Eye Beam interaction, hasn't happened to me yet. So basically, if drawn from Skull, it would cost 0 if played "normally" and 1 if it's in Outcast? Lol that makes no sense, hopefully they'll fix that.
And yeah the weapon nerf is probably harder I agree.