Damn, seems like its been forever since you actually battled for the board & had to make trades. Now its one extreme or the other meaning either the board is endlessly filled with little dinks that you cant keep up with or every single thing played gets removed immediately. Boring. Oh look another lackey puked onto the board. Or, Oh great, another guy removed immediately. Geesh.
Im tryng to remember what adventure or expansion was the last time that this game actually had good board battles? Does anyone remember? I miss that. Dont you? It just seemed more involving & engaging.
Addition of lackeys broke any board rules. You can always refill ,always find some lethal. Sure classic minion vs minions trading is long gone, tho it did matter who has a stronger board 1 year ago
Back during Frozen Throne the Meta was very Mid-Range-heavy with Keleseth, Scalebane, Chaingang & Bonemare kind of Decks. u also had Spiteful Summoner Decks that ran very Little Spells. The Game was very board-oriented at that time as far as i remember - clear their stuff before the bonemare-turn, keep removal for spiteful Summoner etc.
The Witchwood-Meta was also very board-centric with the odd and even Stuff. Odd-Rogue is a deck that wins by getting the board and making favorable trades early on.
Now i understand that your point is also about a meta where making trades mattered a lot. I would argue that any meta that is very agressive is one where trades tend to become interesting. Agro mirros are a lot about board control. It is rarely two guys blindly going face and ignoring everything else... Pirate Warrior mirrors from back in the day for example - go watch a pro game from that time. these guys traded back and forth like crazy to get the board. Actually getting a value-trade won a lot of these games.
Remove Lackeys from this game ffs, its becoming unbearable with Galakrond Highlander Roque currently occupying almost 30% of the Meta, I mean what the hell. How do players find joy in this crap ?
Oh yea not paying mana to play big minions seems like a fair enough deal nowadays. LMAO
While Shaman got nerfed to oblivion, Roque is the real class that NEEDS a unreal amount of card nerfs and at least one or two Hall of Shame's. (Shadowstep and Edwin)
The trouble with the hit your face decks at the moment are the fact those little minions they keep populating their board with are then boosted by things like savage roar, bloodlust, hunter quest hero power, minions that add attack to all your board or a zephrys... those little guys then blick you. If they couldn't buff those minions like that it may be workable...
What's a possible solution? Limit the amount that attack can be buffed? Not really viable... also removing the spells/affects that buff them is also over the top. More cheap taunts for control... the fact aggro can refill their boards so easily may be part office issue, they don't value their minions as much as control decks do or need to do.
Board control by board presence is still very essential in Arena. If you miss it, that's where you get it.
In Constructed, it depends on the deck you play and the matchup, of course, but it has become a bit unfashionable.
Controlling decks are usually built with using all the board clearing and minion killing effects that a class can use. Why wouldn't you do it?! If you don't use all these effects, you might find yourself in a situation, where you don't have the right answer. And when you don't have a sufficient amount of answers, you simply won't play that class that way.
Thanks to 3 expansions per year, and the design approach of Standard, there's rarely a shortage of these effects for the usual classes, to the point that people think the only way of playing a control-oriented deck is having 6+ board clears. The time when these decks used cards like Cairne Bloodhoof are over, because not only is Cairne usually way too slow, but you also have no need for such cards anymore, when you can have another board clear, or minions with Rush, or minions with minion-killing effects, etc.
With controlling decks being so good at neutralizing the board so frequently, the best way to beat them is to use very aggressive strategies that focus on cheap/high damage minions, direct damage effects, direct damage spells, weapons, etc, or, as you have pointed out, token strategies with loads of expendable minions.
In this kind of environment, cards that are good for minion trading like Water Elemental or Savannah Highmane have become obsolete, because it's rare enough to see a minion survive anyway, and actual aggressive decks are too fast that your efficient trading just can't keep up. And with aggressive decks usually getting more efficient, more explosive etc., you end up with a chicken/egg situation, that requires control-oriented decks to get more answers again.
I personally think that the community is partially to blame for this situation; starting with the old "Curvestone" argument. People started to dislike and complain about the importance of minion trading, because it became boring, and oftentimes meant that whoever has the better curve and thus better trades would end up winning. Also, there has always been the complaint that controlling decks needed more ways to respond to board states, or else they would be systematically disadvantaged against minion-focused decks: they had to draw one of their few answers, while the opponent had to draw just one of the many available, equally threatening minions. While these were fair criticisms, they pointed in a direction where minion combat would inevitable become less important. And nowadays, it isn't exactly helping when pretty much any minion-based strategy is labeled an "aggro" deck, because control-oriented decks oftentimes don't play many, if any minions before turn 6 or 7 that one could even interact with.
The "compromise" that most people theoretically agree with nowadays, is the holy triangle of balance: Control decks should beat aggressive decks but lose to Combo decks, while aggressive decks should beat Combo decks. I say theoretically, because in reaility, seemingly everyone hates Combo decks for being uninteractive, and everyone hates aggressive decks for being too simple and too fast, and control decks are the only true skilled way to play the game...
Anyway, that triangle of balance is pretty much what the designers settled for as well, providing tools for each of these three archetypes to a degree that minion trading is just not viable, or necessary, or even possible most of the time. You may see minion trading being important, if you play with one minion-based deck against another. There are not many, but you can still have that. Embiggen Druid, for example, consists almost entirely of minions, and while the decks win condition is usually to draw a few key cards in the first four or five turns and constantly put massive minions on the board, it is at least a deck that will put something on the board and needs to maintain board presence to win. HIghlander Hunter is also more of a mixed bag of everything than a pure control or aggressive deck, where minion combat can be important.
Some good replies here. I just miss games like that. Its so "empty" out there now, or filled with a bunch of 1/1's that had better have an answer for, lol. I dunno. I just dont like this meta at all I guess. Its dull.
As for Rogue? Oh my goodness.... so sick of it. You CANT do anything about it. They end up generating like 30+ extra cards per game if not more. Then they bounce cards back and generate more. Even if they dont "hit" the right lackey each time eventually they WILL and anything other than hyper aggro cant possible deal enough damage to outlast them. Somehow they end up being able to heal just enough or just keep removing every posible thing you play. Its very hard to finish them off even if you do get them down early. Its SICK. Its also so braindead.... you just vomit lackayes and bounce powerful cards. Thats it. Galakrond Rogue is Window-Licker certified.
Damn, seems like its been forever since you actually battled for the board & had to make trades. Now its one extreme or the other meaning either the board is endlessly filled with little dinks that you cant keep up with or every single thing played gets removed immediately. Boring. Oh look another lackey puked onto the board. Or, Oh great, another guy removed immediately. Geesh.
Im tryng to remember what adventure or expansion was the last time that this game actually had good board battles? Does anyone remember? I miss that. Dont you? It just seemed more involving & engaging.
Addition of lackeys broke any board rules. You can always refill ,always find some lethal. Sure classic minion vs minions trading is long gone, tho it did matter who has a stronger board 1 year ago
Back during Frozen Throne the Meta was very Mid-Range-heavy with Keleseth, Scalebane, Chaingang & Bonemare kind of Decks. u also had Spiteful Summoner Decks that ran very Little Spells. The Game was very board-oriented at that time as far as i remember - clear their stuff before the bonemare-turn, keep removal for spiteful Summoner etc.
The Witchwood-Meta was also very board-centric with the odd and even Stuff. Odd-Rogue is a deck that wins by getting the board and making favorable trades early on.
Now i understand that your point is also about a meta where making trades mattered a lot. I would argue that any meta that is very agressive is one where trades tend to become interesting. Agro mirros are a lot about board control. It is rarely two guys blindly going face and ignoring everything else... Pirate Warrior mirrors from back in the day for example - go watch a pro game from that time. these guys traded back and forth like crazy to get the board. Actually getting a value-trade won a lot of these games.
Remove Lackeys from this game ffs, its becoming unbearable with Galakrond Highlander Roque currently occupying almost 30% of the Meta, I mean what the hell. How do players find joy in this crap ?
Oh yea not paying mana to play big minions seems like a fair enough deal nowadays. LMAO
While Shaman got nerfed to oblivion, Roque is the real class that NEEDS a unreal amount of card nerfs and at least one or two Hall of Shame's. (Shadowstep and Edwin)
The trouble with the hit your face decks at the moment are the fact those little minions they keep populating their board with are then boosted by things like savage roar, bloodlust, hunter quest hero power, minions that add attack to all your board or a zephrys... those little guys then blick you. If they couldn't buff those minions like that it may be workable...
What's a possible solution? Limit the amount that attack can be buffed? Not really viable... also removing the spells/affects that buff them is also over the top. More cheap taunts for control... the fact aggro can refill their boards so easily may be part office issue, they don't value their minions as much as control decks do or need to do.
Board control by board presence is still very essential in Arena. If you miss it, that's where you get it.
In Constructed, it depends on the deck you play and the matchup, of course, but it has become a bit unfashionable.
Controlling decks are usually built with using all the board clearing and minion killing effects that a class can use. Why wouldn't you do it?! If you don't use all these effects, you might find yourself in a situation, where you don't have the right answer. And when you don't have a sufficient amount of answers, you simply won't play that class that way.
Thanks to 3 expansions per year, and the design approach of Standard, there's rarely a shortage of these effects for the usual classes, to the point that people think the only way of playing a control-oriented deck is having 6+ board clears. The time when these decks used cards like Cairne Bloodhoof are over, because not only is Cairne usually way too slow, but you also have no need for such cards anymore, when you can have another board clear, or minions with Rush, or minions with minion-killing effects, etc.
With controlling decks being so good at neutralizing the board so frequently, the best way to beat them is to use very aggressive strategies that focus on cheap/high damage minions, direct damage effects, direct damage spells, weapons, etc, or, as you have pointed out, token strategies with loads of expendable minions.
In this kind of environment, cards that are good for minion trading like Water Elemental or Savannah Highmane have become obsolete, because it's rare enough to see a minion survive anyway, and actual aggressive decks are too fast that your efficient trading just can't keep up. And with aggressive decks usually getting more efficient, more explosive etc., you end up with a chicken/egg situation, that requires control-oriented decks to get more answers again.
I personally think that the community is partially to blame for this situation; starting with the old "Curvestone" argument. People started to dislike and complain about the importance of minion trading, because it became boring, and oftentimes meant that whoever has the better curve and thus better trades would end up winning. Also, there has always been the complaint that controlling decks needed more ways to respond to board states, or else they would be systematically disadvantaged against minion-focused decks: they had to draw one of their few answers, while the opponent had to draw just one of the many available, equally threatening minions. While these were fair criticisms, they pointed in a direction where minion combat would inevitable become less important. And nowadays, it isn't exactly helping when pretty much any minion-based strategy is labeled an "aggro" deck, because control-oriented decks oftentimes don't play many, if any minions before turn 6 or 7 that one could even interact with.
The "compromise" that most people theoretically agree with nowadays, is the holy triangle of balance: Control decks should beat aggressive decks but lose to Combo decks, while aggressive decks should beat Combo decks. I say theoretically, because in reaility, seemingly everyone hates Combo decks for being uninteractive, and everyone hates aggressive decks for being too simple and too fast, and control decks are the only true skilled way to play the game...
Anyway, that triangle of balance is pretty much what the designers settled for as well, providing tools for each of these three archetypes to a degree that minion trading is just not viable, or necessary, or even possible most of the time. You may see minion trading being important, if you play with one minion-based deck against another. There are not many, but you can still have that. Embiggen Druid, for example, consists almost entirely of minions, and while the decks win condition is usually to draw a few key cards in the first four or five turns and constantly put massive minions on the board, it is at least a deck that will put something on the board and needs to maintain board presence to win. HIghlander Hunter is also more of a mixed bag of everything than a pure control or aggressive deck, where minion combat can be important.
Some good replies here. I just miss games like that. Its so "empty" out there now, or filled with a bunch of 1/1's that had better have an answer for, lol. I dunno. I just dont like this meta at all I guess. Its dull.
As for Rogue? Oh my goodness.... so sick of it. You CANT do anything about it. They end up generating like 30+ extra cards per game if not more. Then they bounce cards back and generate more. Even if they dont "hit" the right lackey each time eventually they WILL and anything other than hyper aggro cant possible deal enough damage to outlast them. Somehow they end up being able to heal just enough or just keep removing every posible thing you play. Its very hard to finish them off even if you do get them down early. Its SICK. Its also so braindead.... you just vomit lackayes and bounce powerful cards. Thats it. Galakrond Rogue is Window-Licker certified.
Play arena. There you battle for the board
No, fix the game to not be so stupid.