Am I the only one that's pretty concerned that there's no tools for mid-range/control decks to deal with aggro and token decks?
We're losing Tar Creeper, the one card that did the most to stop aggro (remember pirate warrior before that card?). Most control classes are losing their early game tools to deal with wide or aggressive boards (Duskbreaker, Stonehill Defender, Spirit Lash, Defile, Odd or Quest Warrior, etc). So many tools are gone.
And what was printed? There is no early AoE spells for anyone. The earliest taunts are Hecklebot and Proud Defender, both at 4 mana, both with drawbacks. There's no new heal source except in Druid, but I'm not sure that heal druid has enough cards to work yet. The only card of some decent taunt ability before turn 5 that I recall is Belligerent Gnome, and again that has a drawback if you are going first. Maybe there's another one lost in the shadow of Tar Creeper, but I don't recall it.
I just don't see what some of these classes that want to make it to the mid or late game will do against aggro. Everyone wants to try Burgle Rogue, but how is that going to handle token Druid or Murloc Shaman? It has nothing to contest a wide board or heal. What is Priest going to play before Mass Hysteria? Radiant Elemental is gone, and they don't have a reliable early game minion anymore.
I've gone from pretty optimistic for the expansion to pretty reserved after the stream. I don't mind aggro, in fact, I like facing aggro, so long as I have the tools to contest it. I'm not sure control has those tools any more. Something makes me feel fishy that this is going to be an aggro expansion after all.
Rush. Warrior is going to have a field day gobbling up aggro decks. That's where the value decks will come in to defeat rush warrior. Mage will probably counter aggro decently as well. As will secret hunter.
You are right though, aggro will be good next season. Especially token druid and secret paladin.
Blizzard is trying carefully to balance the game here. We had a time were aggro was dominant, they tinkered with defensive cards during 1st rotation and failed. With second rotation they introduced Tar Creeper/Tortolan Defender at 3 mana and they were succesfull aggro kinda died/changed and shifted towards more midrangy decks.
Now they try to balance around the 4 mana slot as defensive turn over turn 3 and hope that the game will be best balanced like that, we will see.
Burgle rogue will most likely shift to a midrange deck not a full control style (which doesnt fit the class anyways).
This expansion will indeed be an aggro expansion till Myra's gets nerfed because Nomi rogue will win on turn 7 with a board full of 6/6s that control often can't deal with. There's enough board clears out for control to deal with aggro after Nomi rogue is nerfed. I can also see silence priest and handlock make a comeback thanks to 4/5 and 5/6 ancient watchers which can be silenced/taunted.
I'm just another one of those. You know, those who do things. Things that need to be done by those that do these things in order to do those things that don't do these things by themselves. Has the word 'things' lost meaning to you already?
Blizzard should make a special stream lessons or youtube videos in which they explain the the only way hs should be played is with supa dupa 1000 IQ control/combo homebrewed decks and 30 minutes long match is a minimum time period that proves you're not braindead blah blah something etc.
This is good i think. Almost all classes need to use their "own" aggro purifiers instead of auto-includes like Tar Creeper and Stonehill Defender
Neutral auto-includes aren't good for game. It feels like all the decks are same.
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Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players. ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
This is good i think. Almost all classes need to use their "own" aggro purifiers instead of auto-includes like Tar Creeper and Stonehill Defender
Neutral auto-includes aren't good for game. It feels like all the decks are same.
There’s a lot of truth there. Tar Creeper was too strong, strong enough that it was put into aggressive decks to protect their other guys. But Blizzard didn’t print any class cards either to contest against aggro. I rather a few cards be the same than all the decks be the same.
im sure some deck will figure it out. But this is the least amount of AoE clears and early/mid game taunts we’ve had in YEARS, while blizzard is pushing board-flooding archetypes like token druid, lock zoo, murloc shaman and secret paladin. Aggro isn’t the aggro of two years ago, but it won’t matter because control can do absolutely nothing to clear the board until it’s too late.
maybe control decks like warrior, priest, mage will actually play things other than hero power and play clears and stonehill/tar creepers. Priest and warrior have excellent 1 drop 1/3s. Every class that plays control has early removal stuff even if it always isn't used because those decks could afford to be greedier before now.
there are some good taunts that will be out. not as broken as tar creeper (and I do love tar creeper as a card, but it was busted).
The 3/8 mech is pretty insane against aggro as long as you don't summon one of their few big dudes (even they even run big dudes), if you summon just a 2 drop or something then they will have a tough time clearing and it curves into a magnetic zilliax if unkilled.
There is the 2 drop 1/4 that becomes 2/4 if the opponent has 2+ minions. that is pretty good.
There is the 4 mana 2/6 that gains 2 attack if it's your own minion if you don't want to play early minions in your deck.
Bear with me, but a control style Shaman deck might be able to deal with aggro thanks to early aoe like Hagatha’s scheme, lightning storm and beakered lightning. Peanut Shaman was a bit of a thing but I can see potential for it to become quite a force.
Control Mage seems to have lots of cheap spells with minion synergy to clear small boards early on but I think it will be weak to taller boards with no dragon’s fury/meteor etc.
You guys have just been spoiled by the stupid amount of board clears in recent times.
Take shaman. It still has both Hagatha, and Hagathas scheme. Lightning storm is still around for early on. Beakered lightening or whatever it's called as well. Shudderwock to repeat Hagathas clear.
Mage still has it's classics in blizzard and flamestrike, as well as the powerful shooting stars and arcane explosion.
Warrior has the flexible warpath, brawl, supercolider and sulthraze, plus the best single minion clearing options.
Paladin has been hit hard, but can still use consecrate, equality/pyro/ and shrink ray.
Warlock still has clears at 1 Mana, 4 Mana, 7 Mana, and 8 Mana. It is hardly going to miss defile.
Druid never has board clear except swipe and Starfall which they always had. Rogue has the same classics in fan of knives and vanish it always had.
Priest has lost a lot of board clear no question.
In short I think people are used to playing this stupid version of hearthstone where they basically do nothing. They either hero power, play a neutral taunt, or skip their turn altogether. Eventually things start looking dangerous and they just wipe the board and start over. Around turn 8 or 9 they take their first real turn. Forget whether you like aggro or control, that's a really boring way to play. It has also led to the crazy rize in combo decks. Combo decks should feel fun, but they feel like solitaire because all the other player is doing is wiping the board.
I think the result is going to be that the rotation forces control decks and combo decks to include another 4-6 cards aimed at survival. Maybe your goal is to win on turn 16, but you can't just skip turn one, skip turn two, drop a tar creeper turn three, armor upor heal on turn four and pass, and then wipe the board turn five. Maybe instead you have to include a few 1 and 2 drops that lower the overall value of your deck or slow your combo down, but they ensure you actually survive.
The worst example of this has been control mage. The deck has varied, but usually runs two dragons fury, blizzard, meteor, and flamestrike. That is eight extremely powerful board clears. All mage needs to do is get to turn five and aggro is basically done. So I've got 4 rounds as an aggro player, and I also have to deal with tar creeper on turn 3 and probably two pings on my minions. Almost as bad was odd warrior. The only way to give aggro decks a fighting chance was stupid stupid things like odd paladin and odd rogue.
Maybe I'll be wrong, but I've been saying for months too much aoe is killing the balance. I'm glad blizzard agrees.
Wild Pyro is still a card one that priest for example has been quite happy to run in the past when it needs AoE, Doomsayer is still a card that buys you a turn or saves you health to get you to the turns where you can start dropping those taunts or using the AoE you do have, Players might have to adapt and look at older cards that maybe once were staples in a control style but fell out of fashion with more and more AoE being added.
As a Priest player if i play Silence Priest for example i can run the Pyro package, I can run the Auchenai package to provide the AoE it needs along with Mass Hysteria, Yes Priest loses AoE but if aggro is a serious issue then i'll add Sunfury Protectors and Defender of Argus to the deck like i used to run in the old Silence Priest deck, Control decks in the past have found a place for Sunfury Protector and Defender of Argus in the past and with less AoE they could find a place again in classes like Priest and Warlock atleast.
Am I the only one that's pretty concerned that there's no tools for mid-range/control decks to deal with aggro and token decks?
We're losing Tar Creeper, the one card that did the most to stop aggro (remember pirate warrior before that card?). Most control classes are losing their early game tools to deal with wide or aggressive boards (Duskbreaker, Stonehill Defender, Spirit Lash, Defile, Odd or Quest Warrior, etc). So many tools are gone.
And what was printed? There is no early AoE spells for anyone. The earliest taunts are Hecklebot and Proud Defender, both at 4 mana, both with drawbacks. There's no new heal source except in Druid, but I'm not sure that heal druid has enough cards to work yet. The only card of some decent taunt ability before turn 5 that I recall is Belligerent Gnome, and again that has a drawback if you are going first. Maybe there's another one lost in the shadow of Tar Creeper, but I don't recall it.
I just don't see what some of these classes that want to make it to the mid or late game will do against aggro. Everyone wants to try Burgle Rogue, but how is that going to handle token Druid or Murloc Shaman? It has nothing to contest a wide board or heal. What is Priest going to play before Mass Hysteria? Radiant Elemental is gone, and they don't have a reliable early game minion anymore.
I've gone from pretty optimistic for the expansion to pretty reserved after the stream. I don't mind aggro, in fact, I like facing aggro, so long as I have the tools to contest it. I'm not sure control has those tools any more. Something makes me feel fishy that this is going to be an aggro expansion after all.
Rush. Warrior is going to have a field day gobbling up aggro decks. That's where the value decks will come in to defeat rush warrior. Mage will probably counter aggro decently as well. As will secret hunter.
You are right though, aggro will be good next season. Especially token druid and secret paladin.
Blizzard is trying carefully to balance the game here. We had a time were aggro was dominant, they tinkered with defensive cards during 1st rotation and failed. With second rotation they introduced Tar Creeper/Tortolan Defender at 3 mana and they were succesfull aggro kinda died/changed and shifted towards more midrangy decks.
Now they try to balance around the 4 mana slot as defensive turn over turn 3 and hope that the game will be best balanced like that, we will see.
Burgle rogue will most likely shift to a midrange deck not a full control style (which doesnt fit the class anyways).
This expansion will indeed be an aggro expansion till Myra's gets nerfed because Nomi rogue will win on turn 7 with a board full of 6/6s that control often can't deal with. There's enough board clears out for control to deal with aggro after Nomi rogue is nerfed. I can also see silence priest and handlock make a comeback thanks to 4/5 and 5/6 ancient watchers which can be silenced/taunted.
Yes aggro will be everywhere. But there will be control decks that have a field day with aggro as always.
Probably a byproduct of them trying not to make the first expansion of the new season the most overpowered.
Hopefully there are new unique decks that can get past meme statis.
Taunts, spells, and minions.
Wild.
Its pretty effective.
Lots of variety, like a Choose One spell.
I'm just another one of those. You know, those who do things. Things that need to be done by those that do these things in order to do those things that don't do these things by themselves. Has the word 'things' lost meaning to you already?
What tools are there now to play aggro?
A whole bunch of secret paladin support cards, a whole bunch of token druid cards, some very good new murlocs and murloc support cards.
This is good i think. Almost all classes need to use their "own" aggro purifiers instead of auto-includes like Tar Creeper and Stonehill Defender
Neutral auto-includes aren't good for game. It feels like all the decks are same.
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players.
ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
I'll probably stick to Wild, primarily, if aggro's a problem.
The wild meta is far more broken and is full of aggro and big priest :( Nerf Barnes!
There’s a lot of truth there. Tar Creeper was too strong, strong enough that it was put into aggressive decks to protect their other guys. But Blizzard didn’t print any class cards either to contest against aggro. I rather a few cards be the same than all the decks be the same.
im sure some deck will figure it out. But this is the least amount of AoE clears and early/mid game taunts we’ve had in YEARS, while blizzard is pushing board-flooding archetypes like token druid, lock zoo, murloc shaman and secret paladin. Aggro isn’t the aggro of two years ago, but it won’t matter because control can do absolutely nothing to clear the board until it’s too late.
maybe control decks like warrior, priest, mage will actually play things other than hero power and play clears and stonehill/tar creepers. Priest and warrior have excellent 1 drop 1/3s. Every class that plays control has early removal stuff even if it always isn't used because those decks could afford to be greedier before now.
there are some good taunts that will be out. not as broken as tar creeper (and I do love tar creeper as a card, but it was busted).
The 3/8 mech is pretty insane against aggro as long as you don't summon one of their few big dudes (even they even run big dudes), if you summon just a 2 drop or something then they will have a tough time clearing and it curves into a magnetic zilliax if unkilled.
There is the 2 drop 1/4 that becomes 2/4 if the opponent has 2+ minions. that is pretty good.
There is the 4 mana 2/6 that gains 2 attack if it's your own minion if you don't want to play early minions in your deck.
doomsayer and mc tech are still around.
aggro is the future. uninstall if you arent netdecking aggro in every mode.
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Bear with me, but a control style Shaman deck might be able to deal with aggro thanks to early aoe like Hagatha’s scheme, lightning storm and beakered lightning. Peanut Shaman was a bit of a thing but I can see potential for it to become quite a force.
Control Mage seems to have lots of cheap spells with minion synergy to clear small boards early on but I think it will be weak to taller boards with no dragon’s fury/meteor etc.
There is only my justice now
You guys have just been spoiled by the stupid amount of board clears in recent times.
Take shaman. It still has both Hagatha, and Hagathas scheme. Lightning storm is still around for early on. Beakered lightening or whatever it's called as well. Shudderwock to repeat Hagathas clear.
Mage still has it's classics in blizzard and flamestrike, as well as the powerful shooting stars and arcane explosion.
Warrior has the flexible warpath, brawl, supercolider and sulthraze, plus the best single minion clearing options.
Paladin has been hit hard, but can still use consecrate, equality/pyro/ and shrink ray.
Warlock still has clears at 1 Mana, 4 Mana, 7 Mana, and 8 Mana. It is hardly going to miss defile.
Druid never has board clear except swipe and Starfall which they always had. Rogue has the same classics in fan of knives and vanish it always had.
Priest has lost a lot of board clear no question.
In short I think people are used to playing this stupid version of hearthstone where they basically do nothing. They either hero power, play a neutral taunt, or skip their turn altogether. Eventually things start looking dangerous and they just wipe the board and start over. Around turn 8 or 9 they take their first real turn. Forget whether you like aggro or control, that's a really boring way to play. It has also led to the crazy rize in combo decks. Combo decks should feel fun, but they feel like solitaire because all the other player is doing is wiping the board.
I think the result is going to be that the rotation forces control decks and combo decks to include another 4-6 cards aimed at survival. Maybe your goal is to win on turn 16, but you can't just skip turn one, skip turn two, drop a tar creeper turn three, armor upor heal on turn four and pass, and then wipe the board turn five. Maybe instead you have to include a few 1 and 2 drops that lower the overall value of your deck or slow your combo down, but they ensure you actually survive.
The worst example of this has been control mage. The deck has varied, but usually runs two dragons fury, blizzard, meteor, and flamestrike. That is eight extremely powerful board clears. All mage needs to do is get to turn five and aggro is basically done. So I've got 4 rounds as an aggro player, and I also have to deal with tar creeper on turn 3 and probably two pings on my minions. Almost as bad was odd warrior. The only way to give aggro decks a fighting chance was stupid stupid things like odd paladin and odd rogue.
Maybe I'll be wrong, but I've been saying for months too much aoe is killing the balance. I'm glad blizzard agrees.
Wild Pyro is still a card one that priest for example has been quite happy to run in the past when it needs AoE, Doomsayer is still a card that buys you a turn or saves you health to get you to the turns where you can start dropping those taunts or using the AoE you do have, Players might have to adapt and look at older cards that maybe once were staples in a control style but fell out of fashion with more and more AoE being added.
As a Priest player if i play Silence Priest for example i can run the Pyro package, I can run the Auchenai package to provide the AoE it needs along with Mass Hysteria, Yes Priest loses AoE but if aggro is a serious issue then i'll add Sunfury Protectors and Defender of Argus to the deck like i used to run in the old Silence Priest deck, Control decks in the past have found a place for Sunfury Protector and Defender of Argus in the past and with less AoE they could find a place again in classes like Priest and Warlock atleast.
I hate soul of the forest. Now they printed it for murlocs. It will be fun to lose to that + bloodlust
Every class got at least one card to fight aggro, either taunts, removal or lifegain. There are even some good neutral options, like Tunnel Blaster.
How many strong aggro cards are we getting?