But more recently, it really shows that blizzard designs 2 expansions ahead.
Thats rly no secret, thats how their process goes ;-) The problem is their reluctance of nerfs/changes and the scale of nerfs when they do happen.
I think it's worth recognizing that nerfing is a very tricky business, and often produces counter-intuitive results which were the opposite of what was intended. In the past, Huntertaker, Midrange Shaman and Pirate Warrior each benefited enormously from a series of nerfs targeting precisely Hunter, Midrange Shaman and Pirates. Prior to Huntertaker, the meta-game was dominated by Combo Hunter - Undertaker was designed and balanced for the pre-Naxx Combo Hunter meta-game, and it performed admirably in Deathrattle Priest and Zoo from August until October 2014, allowing those decks to compete against the best deck in the game. But when other decks still couldn't compete, Combo Hunter was nerfed, and many people predicted the death of the class. We know what happened. Undertaker wasn't tested for a meta-game in which Combo Hunter wasn't the dominant deck - it was designed as a tool to combat that deck. Without the depressive effect of Combo Hunter in the meta, the power level of Undertaker sky-rocketed, and Hunter continued dominating the game after its previous set of core OP cards were eliminated from competitive play.
Similar stories could be told about the other decks I mentioned, and plenty of others in IRL games (it isn't a feature unique to HS, and the "laziness and stupidity" of its devs) - as an "old guy," I remember the reign of Necro decks in MtG, and how each series of nerfs to the deck simply improved its performance, until the card itself was finally banned. There are plenty of other, more recent examples. For the most part, the HS community couldn't care less about any of this - but that hardly constitutes an argument in favour of nerfing for the sake of nerfing.
Ofc that nerfing isnt a simple process and new "OP" cards/decks would arise after the nerfs, especially with how Blizzard handle nerfs in HS ... but their main policy for not nerfing cards is, that players would feel bad for having to spend time/gold=dust to get these cards and when they could finally play with em, they would get nerfed and it would feel underwhelming.
While i understand this policy (mainly from the business standpoint), i think its a prety stupid one and should be revisited. Especially since like i said, we all know how they handle nerfs in HS ... they could opt to make more frequent, but less punishing nerfs, but then that would result in more dust being redistributed amongst the players over time from the more frequent full DEs, which is most likely why it aint done in a first place.
I dont accuse them of being too greedy often (they r not a charity after all), but in this regard, i will say that they could be less greedy and stop driving their nerf policy mainly based on profits.
What's kind of interesting about the class is that it still has its moments in tournament play. Somewhat less so since K&C, but Dead Man's Hand and Taunt have both had their uses when players are able to ban Priest. Alas, we don't have that luxury on ladder.
I have high hopes for the next rotation, though. Raza and Y'Shaarj leaving will hurt Priest in a major way (along with some powerful Dragon Priest cards). Patches will slow down tempo decks. Jade is leaving, which means no need to tech Skulking Geist. Kabal Crystal Runner and Medivh's Valet are out, though secret mage still has a lot of tools.
Obviously there's no way to predict the next meta, but I do think a lot of currently problematic matchups are going to disappear. And if decks like zoo lock and aggro paladin dominate the meta, control Warrior could find its niche. Warrior will have a few tough losses: Ravaging Ghoul, Sleep with the Fishes, and Alley Armorsmith, to name a few. Maybe The Curator and Dirty Rat, too. But overall it feels like these losses are less impactful than those of other classes.
I completely agree with you on Warrior cards being too fair compared to other classes. Some of the most unfair things Warrior can do like obscene amounts of Armor gain (Ancient Shieldbearer, Tower Shield +10, Tank Up!) require very specific decks which are still too fair to be good in current metas, are unreliable, or require the game to be long and drawn out which warrior can really struggle to do now that it has very little good early game for control decks.
There's also some ways to do lots of burst damage (Grommash Hellscream + a Whirlwind effect, Brann Bronzebeard + Iron Juggernaut), but these suffer from similar issues. Grom can be solid, but it's a legendary, requires some kind of combo to do burst damage immediately, and Warrior just doesn't have enough op cards to make a good deck to support it.
If control warrior or really just warrior in general is going to be strong again I think the most important thing it needs is getting some better early game. Then a non-legendary, proactive card that is very strong and impactful on its own.
What's kind of interesting about the class is that it still has its moments in tournament play. Somewhat less so since K&C, but Dead Man's Hand and Taunt have both had their uses when players are able to ban Priest. Alas, we don't have that luxury on ladder.
I have high hopes for the next rotation, though. Raza and Y'Shaarj leaving will hurt Priest in a major way (along with some powerful Dragon Priest cards). Patches will slow down tempo decks. Jade is leaving, which means no need to tech Skulking Geist. Kabal Crystal Runner and Medivh's Valet are out, though secret mage still has a lot of tools.
Obviously there's no way to predict the next meta, but I do think a lot of currently problematic matchups are going to disappear. And if decks like zoo lock and aggro paladin dominate the meta, control Warrior could find its niche. Warrior will have a few tough losses: Ravaging Ghoul, Sleep with the Fishes, and Alley Armorsmith, to name a few. Maybe The Curator and Dirty Rat, too. But overall it feels like these losses are less impactful than those of other classes.
Yep, I'm hopeful too, can't wait until all this highroll and Jade Idol (even though it's not as oppresive as it was now) bullshit leaves...the only thing I'm worried about is Cubelock, the OTKs are annoying and the deck in general has too easy ways of dealing with boards (not just aggro, any board), it's strong both early, mid and late game (and don't get me wrong, I'll probably craft the stuff I'm missing for it soon, at least for tournament play).
As for Warrior, it's kinda sad Grom doesn't see any play at all, it would be great if he makes a comeback.
Grom is great in the past because he is in a company consist of Winrunner, Dr.Boom, Ragnaros, Alex and Ysera. You can either use him as a finisher or happy enough to drop him on curve to kill something, or even face, because you know you still have alot of big boys to back it up. Look now, all most of his friend gone, Ysera and Alex is too slow now when they Bonemared your ass since turn 7. Like many other have said, Control Warrior needs a clear win condition, or a really broken spell aka like UI, to turn the table, regain tempo and play some big boys to win the game back.
Just wait for rotation in Spring. The format will be incredibly shaken up. No more Raza, Kazakus, Patches or Jades. Yeah warrior is ass now, but it’ll come back. Unfortunately the warrior answers just don’t line up great against the meta. Warrior has no good access to silence effects or to Sap stuff which you basically need to deal with some of the top decks. When the meta shifts away from those effects being necessary then warrior will shine again.
Not balancing classes is Blizzard's Business Plan - nearly the whole of their business plan.
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Blizzard would make next to no money if they balanced the classes; because nearly everyone would go f2p and just specialize on one class/hero. They slowly and rather extremely cycle the classes to make sure you can't do that and stay competitive. The good news is that Warrior has already begun it's climb back - by getting a couple of cards that will be very powerful after another expansion or two.
Note, aggro is an exception to this, everybody gets aggro as f2p, but if you want a game with more choices such as midrange and control, you can't stick with any one hero for very long.
Warrior can't play the tempo game cause other classes do it better and can't play a late game because it can't do anything broken late except for going infinite with dead man's hand, which is waaaaaay too slow to work in this meta.
seconding those who've said control warrior's gonna be good again when jade and raza are gone. it has amazing clears and anti-aggro tools, it just hasn't had a strong enough wincon to compete with the completely unfair archetypes.
I don't mean to downplay the nerf of Fiery War Axe, but people exaggerate when they say it is the only reason the class is doing poorly.
Warrior is bad because their best cards are not good enough anymore and they didn't get anything new. Most people apparently forgot, but Fire Plume's Heart was actually doing pretty well back in Un'Goro. Perhaps not the strongest deck but a solid one. The hero power is pretty good for a late game win condition. That is, until you introduce so many other insane win conditions which all make it look shitty. Jade Druid became absurd in KFT, Razakus Priest ridiculed the quest for dealing a mere 8 damage to one RANDOM target per turn, Tempo decks became much stronger to a point that half the classes utilized Patches the Pirate, Southsea Captain, Prince Keleseth, Bonemare, and Cobalt Scalebane. And while Control Warlock was somewhat weak during KFT, KnC has redefined "lategame" with the class, and allowed Bloodreaver Gul'dan to be about as powerful as it could get.
In the meantime, Warrior received a crapload of bad/whatever cards. Actually, Geosculptor Yip is a pretty decent card, but not with this competition and the overall weak gameplan.
Warrior still has very good cards. Shield Slam has always been an excellent removal, Execute is still strong (although the nerf hurts), Brawl is still one of the best Board Clears in the entire game, Frothing Berserker or Grommash Hellscream are theoretically as powerful as ever, and people rightfully expected that Blood Razor would make them extremely dangerous again.
But when other classes get stuff that makes the best of Warrior look bad, it does not show that Warrior has a bad core set or weak tools, just that the powercreep is real, and that Warrior has not been treated as well as other classes.
That being said, I agree with some others here that there is a decent chance for Control Warrior to rise again after the rotation. And as Priest and Warlock have shown before, if Team 5 wants it bad enough, they can and will make Warrior powerful again.
God people have such short memories. Thank god we don’t have 5 competitive warrior decks anymore
What are you on about dude... They're saying he's currently bad, not that he's always been bad. WTF does memory have to do with that
He's asking why warrior is doing bad. Look at what classes are the worst right now, the 2 that dominated the meta in 2016. On top of that, my post doesn't even mention the OP. I probably wasn't even directing that at him, but who knows because you don't know how to use a calendar.
But nice job necroing a post from 3 months ago just to respond to me. If you're really that desperate for an argument try using recent posts.
If warrior doesn't get better this expansion, I'll stop playing this game :( It's my main class and it's so frustrating to play with it now. Like the brainless tempo mage game when they just go face face face, argh.. And even aggro wins a lot against your control warrior.
Pretty much none of latest 3 expansions were any good. Cards look nerfed already after release. and don't provide any good synergy at all.
They add cards for old whirlwind, but those worth simply too much, new legendary weapon also is enormously slow. Warrior dk ability also a big waste.
Warrior is lacking of decent draw spell, we are literally forced to use acolyte which is only option for control warrior to draw cards consistently. But it only give 3 card if we are lucky but waste way more than 3 mana + whirlwind effect cards which could have better use.
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What's kind of interesting about the class is that it still has its moments in tournament play. Somewhat less so since K&C, but Dead Man's Hand and Taunt have both had their uses when players are able to ban Priest. Alas, we don't have that luxury on ladder.
I have high hopes for the next rotation, though. Raza and Y'Shaarj leaving will hurt Priest in a major way (along with some powerful Dragon Priest cards). Patches will slow down tempo decks. Jade is leaving, which means no need to tech Skulking Geist. Kabal Crystal Runner and Medivh's Valet are out, though secret mage still has a lot of tools.
Obviously there's no way to predict the next meta, but I do think a lot of currently problematic matchups are going to disappear. And if decks like zoo lock and aggro paladin dominate the meta, control Warrior could find its niche. Warrior will have a few tough losses: Ravaging Ghoul, Sleep with the Fishes, and Alley Armorsmith, to name a few. Maybe The Curator and Dirty Rat, too. But overall it feels like these losses are less impactful than those of other classes.
I completely agree with you on Warrior cards being too fair compared to other classes. Some of the most unfair things Warrior can do like obscene amounts of Armor gain (Ancient Shieldbearer, Tower Shield +10, Tank Up!) require very specific decks which are still too fair to be good in current metas, are unreliable, or require the game to be long and drawn out which warrior can really struggle to do now that it has very little good early game for control decks.
There's also some ways to do lots of burst damage (Grommash Hellscream + a Whirlwind effect, Brann Bronzebeard + Iron Juggernaut), but these suffer from similar issues. Grom can be solid, but it's a legendary, requires some kind of combo to do burst damage immediately, and Warrior just doesn't have enough op cards to make a good deck to support it.
If control warrior or really just warrior in general is going to be strong again I think the most important thing it needs is getting some better early game. Then a non-legendary, proactive card that is very strong and impactful on its own.
"Let me change your mind..."
"Let me change your mind..."
You can't stop the signal.
Grom is great in the past because he is in a company consist of Winrunner, Dr.Boom, Ragnaros, Alex and Ysera. You can either use him as a finisher or happy enough to drop him on curve to kill something, or even face, because you know you still have alot of big boys to back it up. Look now, all most of his friend gone, Ysera and Alex is too slow now when they Bonemared your ass since turn 7. Like many other have said, Control Warrior needs a clear win condition, or a really broken spell aka like UI, to turn the table, regain tempo and play some big boys to win the game back.
Just wait for rotation in Spring. The format will be incredibly shaken up. No more Raza, Kazakus, Patches or Jades. Yeah warrior is ass now, but it’ll come back. Unfortunately the warrior answers just don’t line up great against the meta. Warrior has no good access to silence effects or to Sap stuff which you basically need to deal with some of the top decks. When the meta shifts away from those effects being necessary then warrior will shine again.
Not balancing classes is Blizzard's Business Plan - nearly the whole of their business plan.
FOLLOW THE MONEY!
Blizzard would make next to no money if they balanced the classes; because nearly everyone would go f2p and just specialize on one class/hero. They slowly and rather extremely cycle the classes to make sure you can't do that and stay competitive. The good news is that Warrior has already begun it's climb back - by getting a couple of cards that will be very powerful after another expansion or two.
Note, aggro is an exception to this, everybody gets aggro as f2p, but if you want a game with more choices such as midrange and control, you can't stick with any one hero for very long.
Warrior can't play the tempo game cause other classes do it better and can't play a late game because it can't do anything broken late except for going infinite with dead man's hand, which is waaaaaay too slow to work in this meta.
seconding those who've said control warrior's gonna be good again when jade and raza are gone. it has amazing clears and anti-aggro tools, it just hasn't had a strong enough wincon to compete with the completely unfair archetypes.
It’s the life cycle of the game, remember in kharazan when priest was a joke? Remember CW vs CW meta? Remember shamanstone??
Give it an expansion or two and the meta will shift again and the prominent classes with it.
I don't mean to downplay the nerf of Fiery War Axe, but people exaggerate when they say it is the only reason the class is doing poorly.
Warrior is bad because their best cards are not good enough anymore and they didn't get anything new. Most people apparently forgot, but Fire Plume's Heart was actually doing pretty well back in Un'Goro. Perhaps not the strongest deck but a solid one. The hero power is pretty good for a late game win condition. That is, until you introduce so many other insane win conditions which all make it look shitty. Jade Druid became absurd in KFT, Razakus Priest ridiculed the quest for dealing a mere 8 damage to one RANDOM target per turn, Tempo decks became much stronger to a point that half the classes utilized Patches the Pirate, Southsea Captain, Prince Keleseth, Bonemare, and Cobalt Scalebane. And while Control Warlock was somewhat weak during KFT, KnC has redefined "lategame" with the class, and allowed Bloodreaver Gul'dan to be about as powerful as it could get.
In the meantime, Warrior received a crapload of bad/whatever cards. Actually, Geosculptor Yip is a pretty decent card, but not with this competition and the overall weak gameplan.
Warrior still has very good cards. Shield Slam has always been an excellent removal, Execute is still strong (although the nerf hurts), Brawl is still one of the best Board Clears in the entire game, Frothing Berserker or Grommash Hellscream are theoretically as powerful as ever, and people rightfully expected that Blood Razor would make them extremely dangerous again.
But when other classes get stuff that makes the best of Warrior look bad, it does not show that Warrior has a bad core set or weak tools, just that the powercreep is real, and that Warrior has not been treated as well as other classes.
That being said, I agree with some others here that there is a decent chance for Control Warrior to rise again after the rotation. And as Priest and Warlock have shown before, if Team 5 wants it bad enough, they can and will make Warrior powerful again.
I specialize in all 9 classes, but with less focus on warrior and rogue.
If warrior doesn't get better this expansion, I'll stop playing this game :(
It's my main class and it's so frustrating to play with it now. Like the brainless tempo mage game when they just go face face face, argh..
And even aggro wins a lot against your control warrior.
If warrior is still doing bad after witchwood, we can officially blame the war axe nerf and get it fixed.
Warriors don't have:
Strong mid-game aggression.
Tempo swings
Overpowered synergy. Whirlwind synergy is weak compared Demons of Warlock or Reviving fallen minions of Priest.
Pretty much none of latest 3 expansions were any good. Cards look nerfed already after release. and don't provide any good synergy at all.
They add cards for old whirlwind, but those worth simply too much, new legendary weapon also is enormously slow. Warrior dk ability also a big waste.
Warrior is lacking of decent draw spell, we are literally forced to use acolyte which is only option for control warrior to draw cards consistently. But it only give 3 card if we are lucky but waste way more than 3 mana + whirlwind effect cards which could have better use.