I enjoy playing various builds of control warrior. I've played "classic" control, messed around with dragons after TGT release, have mostly been toying with a Reno/Dragon variant after LOE, and now I'm trying to make C'Thun warrior playable, at least at lower ranks. I'm not a legend player, I usually stop tryharding on the ladder upon hitting rank 5.
Anyway, let's get to the point. The thing that amazes me time and again is people playing Elise Starseeker in control warrior mirror matchup. No matter what silly build I'm playing, I don't think I've ever lost to an opponent playing Elise against me. I just keep removing the mostly worthless legendaries, while laughing at how they can't do shit about my Ysera or Grom or whatnot. I think Elise is pretty worthless in any situation, but I haven't seen her enough in other matchups to be sure.
What do you guys think? Do you include Elise in any of your decks, and why?
Actually, Elise when played at the right time, can often be the difference between a win or a loss in Control vs Control match-ups. The fact that she puts you behind on fatigue is reason alone to run her, not to mention, in every Control match up, in the end there's bound to be cards that are left in the end and little to no use, turning those cards to some freebie legendaries, doesn't sound too bad to me.
I think the main problem is knowing when to play her. If you still have a handful of legenadries, and a huge amount of cards in your deck are left, then you don't wanna drop the monkey. If you're nearing fatigue and have some trash in your hand, then your might as well.
In control matchups most of your removals and card draws sits on your hand,elise prevent that and sometimes gives game winner legendaries in fatigue like second elise(card to draw), malorne (in wild),new pagle(draw for opponent in fatigue) or reno jackson.Thats why elise is good in control decks.
Control Warrior is built to outlast the opponent, it runs tons of removal and health gain. It gains card advantage through weapons and playing lategame legendaries that often trade for several card of the opponent.
However in Control Mirrors all the lategame legendaries generally eat removal and die the turn they are played. It is not uncommon for a Control Warrior to end the game against other Control deck holding Shield Slam and Brawl and a bunch of card draw in hand. Elise lets you cycle all this garbage for minions. The fact that more than half legendaries are lategame minions is just icing on the cake.
In Control matchups you don't play the Monkey the turn you draw it. You sit, wait, gain value and card advantage through the cards you have.
I was playing Elise in my Control Warrior pre-Standard. She is useful in allowing Control to cut the number of massive legendaries they had to include in the deck (I topped out at Boom and Grom, occasionall teching in Archthief Rafaam as a counter to Control Priest or burst mirror Warriors to get ahead on the fatigue game). With this freed up space Warrior could put more early stalling options like running two Brawls and a couple of midrange minions.
In the matchups you are describing, it sounds like your opponents are playing it poorly. You are dominating them at that point with good reason. In the mirror matchup the goal is to avoid drawing cards (not to fall behind in fatigue) and save Elise until the very, very end of the match. This lets us use our removal against your Ysera and other big drops (or as you have done, effectively combat legendaries when our opponent drops the golden monkey prematurely). The goal is supposed to be to force you to spend your hard removals, shield slams, executes, a brawl, before we play golden monkey. Then you are out of removal options, we turn our card draw and anti-aggro cards into more useful legendaries and can make a final push as the game enters fatigue. It sounds like your opponents are playing Elise too soon, failing to pressure you into spending your removal, and failing to save their own removal for your biggest threats.
Enjoy the wins! It might be a factor of not having faced more experienced players with the deck at higher ranks. But it's nice knowing some of the weaknesses of your opposition and being able to hone in on their misplays.
The players I'm facing usually play the monkey only for the last ~5 cards, when both of us hardly have had anything to play for the past few turns, so I don't think the problem is playing it at the wrong time. I guess I'm simply not facing many experienced players at lower ranks and it's playing around fatigue rather than Elise that helps me win
Yeah, if there's still several cards in the deck and my opponent still has not played their big win condition legendaries, I am not going to play monkey and lose out on my hard removal cards. If they are behind on cards due to drawing too much earlier on and are facing an eventual loss in fatigue, then it could make sense to play monkey as a desperate last effort. But in that case their mistakes were made at an early stage of the matchup.
In my opinion Elise is another win condition in exactly the control vs. control matchups. No matter what, in These matchups you rarely want to use your carddraw (probably with exception against reno- or Handlock) since both decks are likely to have more removal than threats. So your Acolyte of Pain , and Shield Block are dead cards in your hand (maybe a late drawn Fiery War Axe as well). If you can then turn them into random legendaries, it's only good.
What is true is that you should avoid playing them the golden monkey when you suspect your opponent still has some big ass minions (and you have still some removal). But that also depends who is dying first in fatigue. If you see that your opponent has 50 armor, while you have 30 and he only went into fatigue 1 turn earlier (or you were the first), your only chance is to play the monkey.
I think Elise is very playable in the mirror, right at the end of the game, at/near fatigue, when you've used all of your value cards in the matchup, and need to convert your dead cards into threats.
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Hi there,
I enjoy playing various builds of control warrior. I've played "classic" control, messed around with dragons after TGT release, have mostly been toying with a Reno/Dragon variant after LOE, and now I'm trying to make C'Thun warrior playable, at least at lower ranks. I'm not a legend player, I usually stop tryharding on the ladder upon hitting rank 5.
Anyway, let's get to the point. The thing that amazes me time and again is people playing Elise Starseeker in control warrior mirror matchup. No matter what silly build I'm playing, I don't think I've ever lost to an opponent playing Elise against me. I just keep removing the mostly worthless legendaries, while laughing at how they can't do shit about my Ysera or Grom or whatnot. I think Elise is pretty worthless in any situation, but I haven't seen her enough in other matchups to be sure.
What do you guys think? Do you include Elise in any of your decks, and why?
Control freak
Actually, Elise when played at the right time, can often be the difference between a win or a loss in Control vs Control match-ups. The fact that she puts you behind on fatigue is reason alone to run her, not to mention, in every Control match up, in the end there's bound to be cards that are left in the end and little to no use, turning those cards to some freebie legendaries, doesn't sound too bad to me.
I think the main problem is knowing when to play her. If you still have a handful of legenadries, and a huge amount of cards in your deck are left, then you don't wanna drop the monkey. If you're nearing fatigue and have some trash in your hand, then your might as well.
In control matchups most of your removals and card draws sits on your hand,elise prevent that and sometimes gives game winner legendaries in fatigue like second elise(card to draw), malorne (in wild),new pagle(draw for opponent in fatigue) or reno jackson.Thats why elise is good in control decks.
Maybe not plaing the golden monkey in theatchup.. But it's a good idea playing her since she adds +1 to the deck count..
People probably play the monkey too early against you..but there are useless cards in every matchup so changing them to legendaries is a big bonus.
Control Warrior is built to outlast the opponent, it runs tons of removal and health gain. It gains card advantage through weapons and playing lategame legendaries that often trade for several card of the opponent.
However in Control Mirrors all the lategame legendaries generally eat removal and die the turn they are played. It is not uncommon for a Control Warrior to end the game against other Control deck holding Shield Slam and Brawl and a bunch of card draw in hand. Elise lets you cycle all this garbage for minions. The fact that more than half legendaries are lategame minions is just icing on the cake.
In Control matchups you don't play the Monkey the turn you draw it. You sit, wait, gain value and card advantage through the cards you have.
I was playing Elise in my Control Warrior pre-Standard. She is useful in allowing Control to cut the number of massive legendaries they had to include in the deck (I topped out at Boom and Grom, occasionall teching in Archthief Rafaam as a counter to Control Priest or burst mirror Warriors to get ahead on the fatigue game). With this freed up space Warrior could put more early stalling options like running two Brawls and a couple of midrange minions.
In the matchups you are describing, it sounds like your opponents are playing it poorly. You are dominating them at that point with good reason. In the mirror matchup the goal is to avoid drawing cards (not to fall behind in fatigue) and save Elise until the very, very end of the match. This lets us use our removal against your Ysera and other big drops (or as you have done, effectively combat legendaries when our opponent drops the golden monkey prematurely). The goal is supposed to be to force you to spend your hard removals, shield slams, executes, a brawl, before we play golden monkey. Then you are out of removal options, we turn our card draw and anti-aggro cards into more useful legendaries and can make a final push as the game enters fatigue. It sounds like your opponents are playing Elise too soon, failing to pressure you into spending your removal, and failing to save their own removal for your biggest threats.
Enjoy the wins! It might be a factor of not having faced more experienced players with the deck at higher ranks. But it's nice knowing some of the weaknesses of your opposition and being able to hone in on their misplays.
The players I'm facing usually play the monkey only for the last ~5 cards, when both of us hardly have had anything to play for the past few turns, so I don't think the problem is playing it at the wrong time. I guess I'm simply not facing many experienced players at lower ranks and it's playing around fatigue rather than Elise that helps me win
Control freak
Yeah, if there's still several cards in the deck and my opponent still has not played their big win condition legendaries, I am not going to play monkey and lose out on my hard removal cards. If they are behind on cards due to drawing too much earlier on and are facing an eventual loss in fatigue, then it could make sense to play monkey as a desperate last effort. But in that case their mistakes were made at an early stage of the matchup.
In my opinion Elise is another win condition in exactly the control vs. control matchups. No matter what, in These matchups you rarely want to use your carddraw (probably with exception against reno- or Handlock) since both decks are likely to have more removal than threats. So your Acolyte of Pain , and Shield Block are dead cards in your hand (maybe a late drawn Fiery War Axe as well). If you can then turn them into random legendaries, it's only good.
What is true is that you should avoid playing
themthe golden monkey when you suspect your opponent still has some big ass minions (and you have still some removal). But that also depends who is dying first in fatigue. If you see that your opponent has 50 armor, while you have 30 and he only went into fatigue 1 turn earlier (or you were the first), your only chance is to play the monkey.I think Elise is very playable in the mirror, right at the end of the game, at/near fatigue, when you've used all of your value cards in the matchup, and need to convert your dead cards into threats.
I can dance on the head of a pin as well.