Hearthpwn

Because the stupid people making cards doesnt even know his own game.
Because shaman keeps getting worse versions of cards that other classes already have.
There's next to 0 overload synergy:
Seriously ,for example, look at mage and one of his mechanics Spells, do you see how many minions do stuff when you cast a spell or make your spells cost less or give you spells? Warrior, hurting your own stuff, do you see how many Whirlwind effects warrior have across minions,weapons and spells?I think you can get the idea from here.
They keep thinking that a big pile of stats is a good minion (this hasn't worked for Earth Elemental, Fireguard Destroyer or Totem Golem,and it also failed for rogue)
They refuse to put good battlecries on shaman minions(name a good one other that Fire Elemental and maybe the Tuskar)
Overload it's overvalued by the designers that still think that 1 overload=0.5 mana (WRONG)
No good board control weapon I have been waiting for shaman's version of Truesilver Champion, Death's Bite or Secret Bow (cant remember the name) since before BRM.

I played shaman as main from beta until the day before GVG (my prediction about shaman becoming the worst class after that day was right, sadly)If you know the class its easy to find why its has been doing so shit in the last 8 months, and how the developers failed miserably to bring it back and why did they fail.

Why can't we have Overload Mastery?

"2 mana, 1/3 Taunt. As long as you have an overload crystal, this minion gets +1/+1".

"If you have an overload crystal when you cast this spell, it deals 4 damage (instead of 2)."

"1 mana spell. Gain life equal to the number of overload crystal * 3".

"3 mana spell. Deals damage to all opponent's minions equal to the number of overload crystal you have". 

Never mind. It's just a bad idea from a drunken mind.

Quote from Are_you jump

Normally when you add in a random effect, the outcome should be better probably by 0.5-1 mana (See Animal Companion. But shamans HP has random for the sake of random. It still summons Wisp and Target Dummy. Ok some HP are stronger then other but Blizzard is trying to balance this with better class cards or with better synergy to your HP.

Agree I forgot to add the part about RNG (a very important one) on my post.
And the example about Animal Companion it's one I always use about to put an example on how shaman randomness should be,every outcome should be above average to compensate for the RNG.
Crackle its such a travesty for example you pay 1 overload to do 0-3 extra damage (compared to Dark Bomb wich is worst than the other 2 mana deal 3 damage spells because of Warlock HP) WHY 0 ?You are paying the overload you should get at least 1 extra damage from the it.

@Rhyolth

Sure most overload cards are bad,I hate most of them.But they didnt even try to make Overload sinergy a thing ,that alone can make some "bad" unused cards viable, like FlameWaker did with Mirror Images or Arcane Missiles.
I agree that its not the main issue but its one of the ways they could try to bring something new to the class,it would at least be a better try than the Murloc from GVG .

And I also think that they missed the best 2 opportunities to put overload on a card and make the mechanic look good and use its potential.

The MistCaller: you want to play this thing ASAP,why not make it a 4 mana 2 overload or something you would get more benefits out of it and the 4/4 body its relevant on turn 4 unlike a turn 6.

Charged Hammer: a 2/4 weapon on turn 4 is next to useless and you want to get rid of the weapon ASAP to trigger the DeathRattle.Why not making it 3 mana 1 overload or 2 mana 2 overload that way you can play it when the damage from the weapon it's useful to clear the board and you can use all the charges faster

In the end it allways goes back to my initial point about developers not knowing shit about their own game.

Quote from Rhyolth jump

Cardstone wrote
Because the stupid people making cards doesnt even know his own game.
Because shaman keeps getting worse versions of cards that other classes already have.
There's next to 0 overload synergy:
Seriously ,for example, look at mage and one of his mechanics Spells, do you see how many minions do stuff when you cast a spell or make your spells cost less or give you spells? Warrior, hurting your own stuff, do you see how many Whirlwind effects warrior have across minions,weapons and spells?I think you can get the idea from here.
They keep thinking that a big pile of stats is a good minion (this hasn't worked for Earth Elemental, Fireguard Destroyer or Totem Golem,and it also failed for rogue)
They refuse to put good battlecries on shaman minions(name a good one other that Fire Elemental and maybe the Tuskar)
Overload it's overvalued by the designers that still think that 1 overload=0.5 mana (WRONG)
No good board control weapon I have been waiting for shaman's version of Truesilver Champion, Death's Bite orSecret Bow (cant remember the name) since before BRM.

While i do agree with some of your points, i disagree on the main one. I don't think the problem comes from Overload, or a lack of overload synergy ; just take a look at the least popular overload cards :
Forked Lightning is just garabge
Earth Elemental is just too vulnerable to too many cards
Feral Spirit / Stormforged Axe are just obsolete
Fireguard Destroyer only fits very aggressive strategy
Crackle / Lava Burst are mainly for aggressive/burn deck
Lightning Bolt does not match our early game

Even if you add some overload synergy, i still won't to play these cards in a midrange list (we probably won't be able to pull such combo off anyway, thanks to our limited card draw).

Now, if these card are bad, or too niche for your deck, it does not mean the mechanic itself is at fault : i'd play a 4 mana 3 overload Fire Elemental over the regular version anyday ! Also, just look at Ancestral Knowledge : at first, most people considered it awful, but i see a growing number of people changing their mind about the card. Why ? because it actually does something useful, and that's not the case of many other overload cards.

Also whatever "fix" you may apply to overload won't change the fact our totems get completely rekt by cards like Muster for Battle and Imp-losion, and we simply don't have the correct tools to fight back : as long as this situation continues, i don't really see a way for Midrange Shaman to be successful, at least in such a meta.

Now, if one Shaman signature ability should be "fixed", it's Windfury : when is the last time you saw Windfury or Windspeaker being played ? That's a shame, because with the correct tools, this ability could be used to fight token based strategy effectively...

I see people make this argument all the time.  "Well X card sees play, so it's not bad!".   THe hosts of value town covered a similar question on their show last week,  A card that doesn't see play could still be good.  

Well, the opposite is also true.  A card that sees play isn't necessarily good.  You work with the tools you have.  Sometimes those are shit, but it's what you have.  Feral spirits, for instance, is way overpriced, but it's popping up in decklists to counter the insane aggro right now. 

Quote from Cardstone jump

@Rhyolth

Sure most overload cards are bad,I hate most of them.But they didnt even try to make Overload sinergy a thing ,that alone can make some "bad" unused cards viable, like FlameWaker did with Mirror Images or Arcane Missiles.
I agree that its not the main issue but its one of the ways they could try to bring something new to the class,it would at least be a better try than the Murloc from GVG .

And I also think that they missed the best 2 opportunities to put overload on a card and make the mechanic look good and use its potential.

The MistCaller: you want to play this thing ASAP,why not make it a 4 mana 2 overload or something you would get more benefits out of it and the 4/4 body its relevant on turn 4 unlike a turn 6.

Charged Hammer: a 2/4 weapon on turn 4 is next to useless and you want to get rid of the weapon ASAP to trigger the DeathRattle.Why not making it 3 mana 1 overload or 2 mana 2 overload that way you can play it when the damage from the weapon it's useful to clear the board and you can use all the charges faster

In the end it allways goes back to my initial point about developers not knowing shit about their own game.

I have to agree with this idea.  A lot of shaman cards are obsolete.   If we had some really strong synergy cards, maybe we could use these tools without handicapping ourselves so much.

I also agree about the devs.  IMO they have already conceded the fact they don't know how to balance the game when they failed to nerf/buff cards, and then gave up entirely on doing so.  This expansion was a big red flag as well, as most of the cards are barely even playable.  

I particularly liked how Ben Brode has been on the PR campaign trail here lately to defend the developers.  Like when he said they didn't want to nerf broken cards, trouble decks, and instead rely on the players to find solutions with the given tools.  And then say that the tools to counter some things like charge, cough patron, don't exist.  ROFL.

As a playable hearthstone class, shaman is dead to me.

What about Mech Shaman? Pros play it :p

Quote from Rhyolth jump

Cardstone wrote
Because the stupid people making cards doesnt even know his own game.
Because shaman keeps getting worse versions of cards that other classes already have.
There's next to 0 overload synergy:
Seriously ,for example, look at mage and one of his mechanics Spells, do you see how many minions do stuff when you cast a spell or make your spells cost less or give you spells? Warrior, hurting your own stuff, do you see how many Whirlwind effects warrior have across minions,weapons and spells?I think you can get the idea from here.
They keep thinking that a big pile of stats is a good minion (this hasn't worked for Earth Elemental, Fireguard Destroyer or Totem Golem,and it also failed for rogue)
They refuse to put good battlecries on shaman minions(name a good one other that Fire Elemental and maybe the Tuskar)
Overload it's overvalued by the designers that still think that 1 overload=0.5 mana (WRONG)
No good board control weapon I have been waiting for shaman's version of Truesilver Champion, Death's Bite orSecret Bow (cant remember the name) since before BRM.

While i do agree with some of your points, i disagree on the main one. I don't think the problem comes from Overload, or a lack of overload synergy ; just take a look at the least popular overload cards :
Forked Lightning is just garabge
Earth Elemental is just too vulnerable to too many cards
Feral Spirit / Stormforged Axe are just obsolete
Fireguard Destroyer only fits very aggressive strategy
Crackle / Lava Burst are mainly for aggressive/burn deck
Lightning Bolt does not match our early game

Even if you add some overload synergy, i still won't to play these cards in a midrange list (we probably won't be able to pull such combo off anyway, thanks to our limited card draw).

Now, if these card are bad, or too niche for your deck, it does not mean the mechanic itself is at fault : i'd play a 4 mana 3 overload Fire Elemental over the regular version anyday ! Also, just look at Ancestral Knowledge : at first, most people considered it awful, but i see a growing number of people changing their mind about the card. Why ? because it actually does something useful, and that's not the case of many other overload cards.

Also whatever "fix" you may apply to overload won't change the fact our totems get completely rekt by cards like Muster for Battle and Imp-losion, and we simply don't have the correct tools to fight back : as long as this situation continues, i don't really see a way for Midrange Shaman to be successful, at least in such a meta.

Now, if one Shaman signature ability should be "fixed", it's Windfury : when is the last time you saw Windfury or Windspeaker being played ? That's a shame, because with the correct tools, this ability could be used to fight token based strategy effectively...

People are using those cards because they have to not because they want to.

srsly tho.. why mech shaman no thing?

 edit: oh yes, facedecks

If you all say shaman doesn't work then how come it works for me! 

I think Overload is fine, its just that a lot of the cards that its attached to have gotten way worse.  Lightning Storm has always been frustrating to use compared to Consecration, Feral Spirit is mostly useless now that Harvest golem isn't the goto 3 drop,  and Lightning bolt doesn't snipe your opponent's 3 drop anymore.

The thing that makes me relieved about queuing into Shaman is knowing they can't come back, and that's been true for a while.  They have lots of cards that require minions to be on the board, and their only comeback card is Lightning Storm, otherwise you just keep clearing their board as they hopelessly try to use their removal to claw back in.

I enjoy playing the class, but its so frustrating when I'm forced to gamble on a 50/50 with Lightning storm.  And all Blizzard made was a card for Malygos shaman to help deal with this.

Quote from DocTam jump

I think Overload is fine, its just that a lot of the cards that its attached to have gotten way worse.  Lightning Storm has always been frustrating to use compared to Consecration, Feral Spirit is mostly useless now that Harvest golem isn't the goto 3 drop,  and Lightning bolt doesn't snipe your opponent's 3 drop anymore.

The thing that makes me relieved about queuing into Shaman is knowing they can't come back, and that's been true for a while.  They have lots of cards that require minions to be on the board, and their only comeback card is Lightning Storm, otherwise you just keep clearing their board as they hopelessly try to use their removal to claw back in.

I enjoy playing the class, but its so frustrating when I'm forced to gamble on a 50/50 with Lightning storm.  And all Blizzard made was a card for Malygos shaman to help deal with this.

Overload is the problem in the sense that blizzard overly values it, and creates bad cards.   This bias has depreciated with time, but it's still obviously there.  4 mana fucking arcane intellect.   The base shaman cards are just so obsolete nowadays it's not even funny, but sadly we still have to use them as crutches just to sort of survive.

What's more, shaman are the bitch RNG class.  Everything we have HAS to have RNG attached to it, because fuck shaman.  Furthermore, we aren't even fully granted the required buff awarded to RNG based cards.  Compare crackle to implosion for instance.

2 dmg implosion = medicore

3 dmg implosion = great

4 dmg implosion = insane

3 dmg crackle = Fucking horrendous

4 dmg crackle = mediocre

5 dmg crackle = great

6 dmg crackle = insane

Why do we have an outcome that is beyond horrible, yet don't have an 7 dmg outcome that is totally broken?  Or better yet, why is 3 damage even an option?   It makes no fucking sense... 

Quote from Rhyolth jump

Quote from Mysticjbyrd jump

Quote from DocTam jump

I think Overload is fine, its just that a lot of the cards that its attached to have gotten way worse.  Lightning Storm has always been frustrating to use compared to Consecration, Feral Spirit is mostly useless now that Harvest golem isn't the goto 3 drop,  and Lightning bolt doesn't snipe your opponent's 3 drop anymore.

The thing that makes me relieved about queuing into Shaman is knowing they can't come back, and that's been true for a while.  They have lots of cards that require minions to be on the board, and their only comeback card is Lightning Storm, otherwise you just keep clearing their board as they hopelessly try to use their removal to claw back in.

I enjoy playing the class, but its so frustrating when I'm forced to gamble on a 50/50 with Lightning storm.  And all Blizzard made was a card for Malygos shaman to help deal with this.

Overload is the problem in the sense that blizzard overly values it, and creates bad cards.   This bias has depreciated with time, but it's still obviously there.  4 mana fucking arcane intellect.   The base shaman cards are just so obsolete nowadays it's not even funny, but sadly we still have to use them as crutches just to sort of survive.

What's more, shaman are the bitch RNG class.  Everything we have HAS to have RNG attached to it, because fuck shaman.  Furthermore, we aren't even fully granted the required buff awarded to RNG based cards.  Compare crackle to implosion for instance.

Overload is far from being our problem : you could change all of our Overload card with regular version, it won't change the fact anything we will try to accomplish with our totem will constantly get demolish by decks spawning multiple 1/1. And it's getting easier and easier for our opponents to spawn them :  Haunted Creeper, Muster for Battle/Imp-losion, Imp Gang Boss, now Living Roots (not to mention Unleash the Nerfs).
Of course, any tech cards from other decks to fight that will also wreck our totems as well...

While you can criticize the value of Lightning Storm in such cases, the card is not meant to deal with tokens to begin with ; it was more design to deal with board of actual cheap minions and injured bigger ones: and it does really well in those cases. We simply don't have a tool suited for that situation (i mean one that will also keep our totems healthy)

Also, Ancestral Knowledge is certainly not a bad card even when compared with Arcane Intellect: the mage card will basically f*ck one of your turn, while the Shaman card will only moderately f*ck two of your turn : since Shaman tend to curve out relatively low anyway, it's not that big of a deal.
Also, it lets you fish for lethal/an answer and leave you with enough mana to cast it instantly : that's a big deal.

I tend to agree with your rant about RNG, and we could use some RNG mitigation, especially with our Hero Power (i mean a better one than Justicar).
Still, your example is not well chosen : the breaking point of Imp-losion would be somewhere between 2 and 3, while Crackle breaks even at exactly 4. So, the ratio good/bad result is very comparable.
The biggest difference in these 2 cards is their nature : since Crackle is mostly a finisher/part of a finishing combo, it will, by nature, fit in a lot less deck than an all-rounder like Imp-losion.

Overload is the problem, because every single shaman card with overload is mediocre.  That's the problem.  Everyone has OP cards, except shaman.  

Summon 2 1/1's ~ 1 mana + 2 dmg ~ 1.5 mana = 2.5 mana.   Combine those in one card, and it's about 1 mana in value.  That's a total of 3.5 mana for the worst case scenario for implosion.  That's still pretty good... Damn near on curve!   Compare that to the worst case scenario for Crackle, and you are overpaying by FIFTY percent.  

Ancestral knowledge is not a good card.  It's another mediocre card, that's almost always strictly worse than another version of the card another class gets.  Just like totem golem is a worse version of shield minibot.

This scenario where you need to draw lethal, and can't spare one extra mana is practically a fucking a fantasy!  It's just not going to pop up enough to ever be truly relevant.  The 4 mana cost will screw you over a 1000x more than that dream scenario will ever pop up.

The reason it has 2 overload, and elemental devastation has 5 overload is because they are trying to force shaman into using lava shock.   That's what they were actually thinking when they developed that crap.

Quote from Rhyolth jump

Cardstone wrote
Because the stupid people making cards doesnt even know his own game.
Because shaman keeps getting worse versions of cards that other classes already have.
There's next to 0 overload synergy:
Seriously ,for example, look at mage and one of his mechanics Spells, do you see how many minions do stuff when you cast a spell or make your spells cost less or give you spells? Warrior, hurting your own stuff, do you see how many Whirlwind effects warrior have across minions,weapons and spells?I think you can get the idea from here.
They keep thinking that a big pile of stats is a good minion (this hasn't worked for Earth Elemental, Fireguard Destroyer or Totem Golem,and it also failed for rogue)
They refuse to put good battlecries on shaman minions(name a good one other that Fire Elemental and maybe the Tuskar)
Overload it's overvalued by the designers that still think that 1 overload=0.5 mana (WRONG)
No good board control weapon I have been waiting for shaman's version of Truesilver Champion, Death's Bite orSecret Bow (cant remember the name) since before BRM.

While i do agree with some of your points, i disagree on the main one. I don't think the problem comes from Overload, or a lack of overload synergy ; just take a look at the least popular overload cards :
Forked Lightning is just garabge
Earth Elemental is just too vulnerable to too many cards
Feral Spirit / Stormforged Axe are just obsolete
Fireguard Destroyer only fits very aggressive strategy
Crackle / Lava Burst are mainly for aggressive/burn deck
Lightning Bolt does not match our early game

Even if you add some overload synergy, i still won't to play these cards in a midrange list (we probably won't be able to pull such combo off anyway, thanks to our limited card draw).

Now, if these card are bad, or too niche for your deck, it does not mean the mechanic itself is at fault : i'd play a 4 mana 3 overload Fire Elemental over the regular version anyday ! Also, just look at Ancestral Knowledge : at first, most people considered it awful, but i see a growing number of people changing their mind about the card. Why ? because it actually does something useful, and that's not the case of many other overload cards.

Also whatever "fix" you may apply to overload won't change the fact our totems get completely rekt by cards like Muster for Battle and Imp-losion, and we simply don't have the correct tools to fight back : as long as this situation continues, i don't really see a way for Midrange Shaman to be successful, at least in such a meta.

Now, if one Shaman signature ability should be "fixed", it's Windfury : when is the last time you saw Windfury or Windspeaker being played ? That's a shame, because with the correct tools, this ability could be used to fight token based strategy effectively...

The problem with windfury is that it allows way too much burst. The ability will never be used to kill tokens when you can instead just deal 10+ dmg.

Like Blizzard said about the need for "bad cards" I also think their philosophy includes "bad classes".

They know the problems with shaman and those problems will continue. They designed the cards,they know EXACTLY where shaman would be after TGT was released.Its not a surprise to the developers.How could it be?

Worst hero power,lack of synergy..and a overload effect which is just meant to punish us by being overvalued in most cases.

We are where they want us.

Been trying some other Shaman decks today and god it's absolutely painful. Mech Shaman is well and truly dead, seems to stand absolutely no chance on the ladder, and none of the "new" "variants" of Totem Shaman seems to have rescued it from the pit it almost immediately fell into after launch. Banana Shaman might be great on the Asian ladder but on EU I just don't get the feeling it is any good at all.

Not really sure what else to try but based on these decks the class does indeed seem to be worse than pre-TGT.

Try elemental destruction shaman. It's pretty good.

I tried totemic also - very underwhelming :(

People think Shaman sucks because the class has so much potential that more often than not goes unrealized, which is disappointing.

Overload cards, especially the key spells, always seem like double or nothing, because with an unlucky roll you 'lose' twice.

For example, compare Lightning Storm to Consecration - value wise. Is the chance of 1 extra damage really worth the mana on credit?

Additionally, compare Equality/Consecration to either double lightning storm or say, Bloodmage/Lightning Storm - value AND results wise.

If you are looking to stay in the game or maybe turn it around you NEED that board clear - not a chance of the board clear...

How often does that Flamestrike at least change the momentum if not completely seal the deal?

There are 2 cards that actually 'reward' you for playing overload - one is very slow and the other weak.

In light of the potential risk of using overload - it seems the reward should be much greater...

Combine the RNG of the key spells with the summon totem RNG, and you multiply the possible outcomes in any situation.

This 'class feature' is terrible for consistency - there are few 'guarantees'.

Consistency is a requirement for competitiveness. and by consistency, we are not talking about the player's decisions.

After numerous tries, I gave up on TGT cards, over reliant on RNG and totem golem's overload is still intrusive. Instead i'm currently running a hybrid of mechs (including powermace) and mid-late cards. Works alright so far.

Some major changes:

- 2x loot hoarders instead of 2x azure drakes

- 1x abusive sergeant 1x flametongue instead of 2x flametongue

Quote from scraperRoy jump

People think Shaman sucks because the class has so much potential that more often than not goes unrealized, which is disappointing.

 

Overload cards, especially the key spells, always seem like double or nothing, because with an unlucky roll you 'lose' twice.

For example, compare Lightning Storm to Consecration - value wise. Is the chance of 1 extra damage really worth the mana on credit?

Additionally, compare Equality/Consecration to either double lightning storm or say, Bloodmage/Lightning Storm - value AND results wise.

If you are looking to stay in the game or maybe turn it around you NEED that board clear - not a chance of the board clear...

How often does that Flamestrike at least change the momentum if not completely seal the deal?

 

There are 2 cards that actually 'reward' you for playing overload - one is very slow and the other weak.

In light of the potential risk of using overload - it seems the reward should be much greater...

 

Combine the RNG of the key spells with the summon totem RNG, and you multiply the possible outcomes in any situation.

This 'class feature' is terrible for consistency - there are few 'guarantees'.

Consistency is a requirement for competitiveness. and by consistency, we are not talking about the player's decisions.

Wow, I never thought of it that way. 'Double losing' if you lose. Now that you mention it, those overload rng cards need more benefit or less risk.