We all thought these new tgt cards were going to be insane, and would carry midrange shaman from trash tier, back into the spotlight. I was perhaps less optimistic than most, but I too foolishly dreamed of my beloved shaman making a comeback. So, why didn't it happen?
One word. Overload! What else, right? It's a staple theme of the class, so it should work in our favor, right? Nope... The overload design is inherently flawed in the sense that it's net outcome is anti-tempo. Now, the Pre-tgt the game's meta could be summarized thusly. People fight for the board for the first few turns, and then the person that gets the board wins 80% of the time. The other 20% the other player comes back with a combo to finish off his opponent. I see no reason this would change in TGT, if anything it's just gotten worse.
Now, the hell of it is that Blizzard actually sees overload as a massively huge tempo play, and thus over values these cards. Which in some respect is true, they are tempo based plays, but the tempo you lose on the next turn is often greater than what you gained.
A great example of this would be the Totem Golem. A 3/4 on two is seemingly insane at first glance, but what about turn 3? If the overload forces me to play a suboptimal play on 3, often just using hero power, then did I really gain anything? Not really, I would have been just as well off, or better, dropping a 2 drop and a spider tank!
But it get's worse! There are several answers the opponent can have for a 3/4 on 2. If such an answer arises, you are relying on your 2 drop to fight their 3 drop. Which means you have already lost the board, and tempo!
But it get's worse! As a shaman, your ability to retake the board once lost is virtually ZERO! The issue is mainly due to the inefficiency of LIghtning storm. One of the primary issues is that the game no longer punishes rush decks for overextending into board clears. The minions are too sticky, and massive card draw is too easily acquired. The other issue is with Lightning storm itself, as it suffers from the previous labeled problems of Overload, except double, and then an additional RNG factor is also tacked on. So, you don't even know if it will clear your opponent's board, yet the next turn you will be massively overloaded. You are essentially rolling a die in the early game, 50/50 you lose! But here is the kicker, the other 50% chance isn't you win, but rather it's you don't immediately lose! Chances are you still lose though, as your opponent will simply vomit his hand again, and you will be so overloaded you will be powerless to stop it. Again, the card that is supposed to net you an insane amount of tempo, has lost you tempo!
Well, what about Healing Wave? Wasn't this supposed to crush the face cancer? Sure, except that's not the meta... Most decks don't randomly toss spells into your face, and hope you die. They are tempo based, and they have a board. Healing wave, even if it procs the 14 health likely only buys you one additional turn. But you are a shaman without board control, so what are you going to do with that one turn? It would be rare for you to be able to comeback from that situation!
This brings up the next issue with the shaman class, win conditions. The shaman class has but one win condition in this type of meta, get your opponent low, and then spam spells into the opponents face. That's it. Sound familiar? It should, because it's called mech shaman. The truly sad thing is that the TGT shaman cards are likely too anti-tempo, and yolo to even make the cut, so this deck will likely continue to be the only semi-viable deck for shaman. But what about Thunder Bluff Valiant, isn't that a win condition? Well what about it? By turn 7 the game has likely already been decided 3+ turns ago, and you don't have any totems alive to buff!
The shaman class themes are basically bad RNG, and anti-tempo overload, and as long as this remains a staple there is basically no hope of a midrange, and dare I say control, shaman to ever emerge again. The shaman class needs OP tempo cards without overload for them to ever have a chance.
TLDR:
- The meta is purely tempo based.
- Blizzard sees overload as a huge tempo swing, thus over values it, but in actuality it is a net tempo loss.
- Shaman have no reliable way to regain board control once lost
- Shaman needs OP tempo based class cards without overload.
This brings up the next issue with the shaman class, win conditions. The shaman class has but one win condition in this type of meta, get your opponent low, and then spam spells into the opponents face.
I've been pretty skeptical of overload from the beta days. In magic there is a mechanic like overload (called echo) except that the pay-mana-next-turn part is optional. You either don't pay and the dude dies or you pay and keep it. Basically all the good echo cards have a great battlecry and/or charge. People rarely pay.
Totem Golem is cute and all but it really is just a boring pile of stats for not that great a deal. Shaman either needs an overwhelming pile of stats, a good battlecry, or taunt on a cheap minion to make the overload worth it. The other option would be more cards that reward you for being overloaded or playing cards with overload. Something as simple as an Unleash The Hounds-esque card that gave you totems based on how overloaded you are is an idea.
As a paladin, I am perfectly happy to go turn 2 Minibot into turn 3 Minibot. As a warlock I am happy to go turn 1 Flame Imp into turn 2 Flame Imp. So why would I not be happy to go Totem Golem into some other 2-drop on the next turn? No decent deck should lose games because it failed to curve out perfectly. If there is a problem with Shaman, which there is, overload isn't it.
I do a lot of deckbuilding, and the most important thing above all else in designing a deck is synergy. The overload mechanic is one I've given some thought to lately. I find that people tend to get fixated on traditional deckbuilding strategies. "Oh I need X amount of 2-drops, OH I need X amount of 4-drops." But there's no point to it in Shaman. If you plan to play a Totem Golem on turn 2 and get overloaded next turn, you should not design your deck with the plan to play a 3-drop on turn 3. It's anti-synergy. The most recent Shaman deck I built was a mech\overload hybrid, with a mana curve that completely skipped over turns 3 and 5, so that way I could play Totem Golems and Fireguard Destroyers on curve, and the overload was irrelevant.
Well, they got Elemental Destruction. Overload is a great mechanic, it rewards those who know how to play it and punishes those who don't. It's why you don't see much shaman on ladder but you do see it pop up in tournaments.
All your points are pretty bad, and midrange Shaman is actually very viable.
First of all, Totem Shaman, the most common variant seen atm, runs only two Overload cards, Totem Golem and Lighting Storm, three at most if you run Doomhammer. Totem Golem's Overload is really not a big deal as your only great on curve turn 3 play is Totemic Tuskar, and even with two mana it's fine to use Haunted Creeper or Hero Power because you will usually be ahead on board, plus you can always use the coin. The only really big deal is Lighting Storm, so let's not talk in general like Shaman's flaw is Overload, because there are plenty of competitive decks that don't care about it. The problem of Shaman is lack of good AOE effects.
Healing Wave is a great card and you know why? Because often, against aggressive decks, you try to race them down. There are many times where you either have the board, are low on life, and you need 1-2 more turns to kill them, or don't have the board but the opponent is really low on life, so again, you need to survive a couple of turns in order to kill them with burst from cards such as Alakir and Doomhammer. And Healing Wave is amazing in those cases, plus it helps a lot against combo decks and face Hunter.
And finally, Shaman lacks win conditions? Are you insane? Alakir, Doomhammer, Bloodlust, and Thunder Bluff are all great win conditions depending on the matchup and give Shaman great reach and the ability to end games in a heartbeat.
The only thing that Shaman is really missing is a small AOE effect like Whirlwind, aggro Paladin is everywhere and that's the main thing that's killing Midrange Shaman.
In another note, try control Shaman with lots of cheap spells and Wild Pyro to control the early game, it works amazingly. And even if you have a bad start, you have so much time to stall until you draw your AOE against aggro, thanks to dual Healing Wave.
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Shaman needs another good aoe clear like lightning storm but better (like lightbomb) so he can turn things around when his ass is overloaded.
They got Elemental Destruction but the problem is it totally wrecks them because of the 5 overload. Oh and I even forgot that it hits your own minions. Even if it didn't it would be garbage.
Most shaman cards with deal damage have overload. Lightning bolts, crackle, lava burst. So shaman has to rely on minions to fight for board, which again, some of them have overload and are not that amazing.
I agree with the OP and all people here (except win conditions). Those fixes you mentioned could fix the class. Overload synergy and such that is.
Shamans in a better position now then ever, and he's always been viable. He may not be the best, but he's always been good.
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"Or of course, because you are 'a strong, independent deck builder, who needs no blizzard to tell them what to include', you make your deck deliberately weaker." - Skaduush1
Shaman isn't in a better position. The cards did give it a lot of fun and potentially strong tools to work with, but tgt introduced all kinds of paladin. I have never had a good matchup in ANY version of shaman against any version of paladin. Regardless of anything else, a paladin meta means worse things for shaman imo.
Gold Shaman player and shaman player on ladder since season 4.
Shaman used to do well back in the Handlock/Zoolock meta. He just had all the right moves, and was a common class for people who enjoyed a more mid-range control style. But mostly, he was one of the only free-to-play decks to make other than zoo. I feel like Blizzard understands their player market and know that people who play slower games are willing to pay for big legendaries. Since Shaman was already able to do well with common/rare's, he was a F2P control deck and was thus nerfed.
Another thing Blizzard didn't like was all of his quick removal spells. Blizzard didn't (and still doesn't) think is fun is for players to quickly remove other players minions on the first few turns. And I mostly agree with them on this. Before Naxx, the game was pretty obviously luck based (now it's much harder to notice). Basically the first few turns were play a creature, it gets removed, player another, it gets removed, play 2-3, AoE. Congratulations, it's turn 6, play as many legionaries as you can. Whoever got their early removal and then topdecked syvannas/rag were winning. Pretty boring. Thus they introduced death-rattle and many sticky minions, even OP ones like piloted shredder. They also released high HP minions for more sticky-ness, first with mechs and now with dragons.
Looking at the history, shaman was vastly nerfed due all the power creep from sticky and high HP minions. Shaman used to do well pretty well, not tier 1, but pretty well, in the classic/expert set. Since Blizzard buffed the **** out of minion stickyness/HP, they effectively nerfed Shaman to garbage tier.
Just STOP with these posts about "Shaman doesn't work, shaman bad, shaman etc". If you dont know what you are talking about just stop it. Right now shaman is a good class, yes you have a bad winrate vs any kind of paladins but if you play well and dont missplay you can easly win. I'm not talking trash, I just hit Legend for the first time last month with my Mid-range shaman and i got like 75% win rate vs all decks from rank 4 to Legend. And i got 100% win rate vs freeze mages because I know when to play Loatheb. And yes i got like 60% win rate vs all kind of paladins + my last boss for Legend was a Secret Paladin and he conceded in turn 6, WHY? because i got insane early drop + a turn 5 Ligh Storm. If you wanna get better with a class just play it all day, grind to ladder and try to tech the right cards.
For the same reason Warlock's negeative cards don't see play and don't work.
Getting 0.5 over value WITHOUT effect for 1+ mana negative drawback just doesn't cut it if you compare that to power-creep value cards like most paladin and druid cards.
Like, really a 2 (1) mana 3/4 is GOOD, but it's not "good enough" to warrant the downside. You can play any 2/3 or 3/2 WITH effect instead and no downside. Many of shaman cards are like this. Just like a 4/3 for 2 mana is not worth to lose a hand card.
Shaman is terrible against aggro. The tools Shaman was given to work with are mostly anti control tools or don't really work with Shaman's current bag of tricks. There is something to be said about a potential tempo Shaman though.
Of course you don't play that on turn 3 after the previous turn's Totem Golem or anything like that. But combo this with Elemental Destruction later in the game and you've got something going on. It can also be used efficiently with other overload cards. Not saying you aren't making good points, because you do. But Lava Shock shouldn't be ignored.
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We all thought these new tgt cards were going to be insane, and would carry midrange shaman from trash tier, back into the spotlight. I was perhaps less optimistic than most, but I too foolishly dreamed of my beloved shaman making a comeback. So, why didn't it happen?
One word. Overload! What else, right? It's a staple theme of the class, so it should work in our favor, right? Nope... The overload design is inherently flawed in the sense that it's net outcome is anti-tempo. Now, the Pre-tgt the game's meta could be summarized thusly. People fight for the board for the first few turns, and then the person that gets the board wins 80% of the time. The other 20% the other player comes back with a combo to finish off his opponent. I see no reason this would change in TGT, if anything it's just gotten worse.
Now, the hell of it is that Blizzard actually sees overload as a massively huge tempo play, and thus over values these cards. Which in some respect is true, they are tempo based plays, but the tempo you lose on the next turn is often greater than what you gained.
A great example of this would be the Totem Golem. A 3/4 on two is seemingly insane at first glance, but what about turn 3? If the overload forces me to play a suboptimal play on 3, often just using hero power, then did I really gain anything? Not really, I would have been just as well off, or better, dropping a 2 drop and a spider tank!
But it get's worse! There are several answers the opponent can have for a 3/4 on 2. If such an answer arises, you are relying on your 2 drop to fight their 3 drop. Which means you have already lost the board, and tempo!
But it get's worse! As a shaman, your ability to retake the board once lost is virtually ZERO! The issue is mainly due to the inefficiency of LIghtning storm. One of the primary issues is that the game no longer punishes rush decks for overextending into board clears. The minions are too sticky, and massive card draw is too easily acquired. The other issue is with Lightning storm itself, as it suffers from the previous labeled problems of Overload, except double, and then an additional RNG factor is also tacked on. So, you don't even know if it will clear your opponent's board, yet the next turn you will be massively overloaded. You are essentially rolling a die in the early game, 50/50 you lose! But here is the kicker, the other 50% chance isn't you win, but rather it's you don't immediately lose! Chances are you still lose though, as your opponent will simply vomit his hand again, and you will be so overloaded you will be powerless to stop it. Again, the card that is supposed to net you an insane amount of tempo, has lost you tempo!
Well, what about Healing Wave? Wasn't this supposed to crush the face cancer? Sure, except that's not the meta... Most decks don't randomly toss spells into your face, and hope you die. They are tempo based, and they have a board. Healing wave, even if it procs the 14 health likely only buys you one additional turn. But you are a shaman without board control, so what are you going to do with that one turn? It would be rare for you to be able to comeback from that situation!
This brings up the next issue with the shaman class, win conditions. The shaman class has but one win condition in this type of meta, get your opponent low, and then spam spells into the opponents face. That's it. Sound familiar? It should, because it's called mech shaman. The truly sad thing is that the TGT shaman cards are likely too anti-tempo, and yolo to even make the cut, so this deck will likely continue to be the only semi-viable deck for shaman. But what about Thunder Bluff Valiant, isn't that a win condition? Well what about it? By turn 7 the game has likely already been decided 3+ turns ago, and you don't have any totems alive to buff!
The shaman class themes are basically bad RNG, and anti-tempo overload, and as long as this remains a staple there is basically no hope of a midrange, and dare I say control, shaman to ever emerge again. The shaman class needs OP tempo cards without overload for them to ever have a chance.
TLDR:
- The meta is purely tempo based.
- Blizzard sees overload as a huge tempo swing, thus over values it, but in actuality it is a net tempo loss.
- Shaman have no reliable way to regain board control once lost
- Shaman needs OP tempo based class cards without overload.
Bloodlust, Al'Akir the Windlord or Doomhammer + Rockbiter Weapon. And spamming spells at the opponent's face isn't a bad win condition, considering it works for most mage decks.
What shaman needs, imho, is a good early game minion without overload. Overload isn't a bad mechanic, but it's horrible in the early game.
I've been pretty skeptical of overload from the beta days. In magic there is a mechanic like overload (called echo) except that the pay-mana-next-turn part is optional. You either don't pay and the dude dies or you pay and keep it. Basically all the good echo cards have a great battlecry and/or charge. People rarely pay.
Totem Golem is cute and all but it really is just a boring pile of stats for not that great a deal. Shaman either needs an overwhelming pile of stats, a good battlecry, or taunt on a cheap minion to make the overload worth it. The other option would be more cards that reward you for being overloaded or playing cards with overload. Something as simple as an Unleash The Hounds-esque card that gave you totems based on how overloaded you are is an idea.
As a paladin, I am perfectly happy to go turn 2 Minibot into turn 3 Minibot. As a warlock I am happy to go turn 1 Flame Imp into turn 2 Flame Imp. So why would I not be happy to go Totem Golem into some other 2-drop on the next turn? No decent deck should lose games because it failed to curve out perfectly. If there is a problem with Shaman, which there is, overload isn't it.
I do a lot of deckbuilding, and the most important thing above all else in designing a deck is synergy. The overload mechanic is one I've given some thought to lately. I find that people tend to get fixated on traditional deckbuilding strategies. "Oh I need X amount of 2-drops, OH I need X amount of 4-drops." But there's no point to it in Shaman. If you plan to play a Totem Golem on turn 2 and get overloaded next turn, you should not design your deck with the plan to play a 3-drop on turn 3. It's anti-synergy. The most recent Shaman deck I built was a mech\overload hybrid, with a mana curve that completely skipped over turns 3 and 5, so that way I could play Totem Golems and Fireguard Destroyers on curve, and the overload was irrelevant.
Well, they got Elemental Destruction. Overload is a great mechanic, it rewards those who know how to play it and punishes those who don't. It's why you don't see much shaman on ladder but you do see it pop up in tournaments.
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I very rarely see shaman in tournaments nowadays. At least, not in the high profile ones I've seen.
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These points are all correct from my experiences playing shaman. Overload is the devil.
They got Elemental Destruction but the problem is it totally wrecks them because of the 5 overload.
Oh and I even forgot that it hits your own minions. Even if it didn't it would be garbage.
Shaman does work.
Both mid-range and Mech Shaman are tier 2 decks and Totem Shaman is at low end of tier 1.
When a class have 3 viable constructed deck, it's hard to call it doesn't work.
Meta changes the moment you switch your deck.
Most shaman cards with deal damage have overload. Lightning bolts, crackle, lava burst. So shaman has to rely on minions to fight for board, which again, some of them have overload and are not that amazing.
I agree with the OP and all people here (except win conditions). Those fixes you mentioned could fix the class. Overload synergy and such that is.
i wish shaman had a better way of drawing cards
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Shamans in a better position now then ever, and he's always been viable. He may not be the best, but he's always been good.
"Or of course, because you are 'a strong, independent deck builder, who needs no blizzard to tell them what to include', you make your deck deliberately weaker." - Skaduush1
Shaman isn't in a better position. The cards did give it a lot of fun and potentially strong tools to work with, but tgt introduced all kinds of paladin. I have never had a good matchup in ANY version of shaman against any version of paladin. Regardless of anything else, a paladin meta means worse things for shaman imo.
play mine it does
Gold Shaman player and shaman player on ladder since season 4.
Shaman used to do well back in the Handlock/Zoolock meta. He just had all the right moves, and was a common class for people who enjoyed a more mid-range control style. But mostly, he was one of the only free-to-play decks to make other than zoo. I feel like Blizzard understands their player market and know that people who play slower games are willing to pay for big legendaries. Since Shaman was already able to do well with common/rare's, he was a F2P control deck and was thus nerfed.
Another thing Blizzard didn't like was all of his quick removal spells. Blizzard didn't (and still doesn't) think is fun is for players to quickly remove other players minions on the first few turns. And I mostly agree with them on this. Before Naxx, the game was pretty obviously luck based (now it's much harder to notice). Basically the first few turns were play a creature, it gets removed, player another, it gets removed, play 2-3, AoE. Congratulations, it's turn 6, play as many legionaries as you can. Whoever got their early removal and then topdecked syvannas/rag were winning. Pretty boring. Thus they introduced death-rattle and many sticky minions, even OP ones like piloted shredder. They also released high HP minions for more sticky-ness, first with mechs and now with dragons.
Looking at the history, shaman was vastly nerfed due all the power creep from sticky and high HP minions. Shaman used to do well pretty well, not tier 1, but pretty well, in the classic/expert set. Since Blizzard buffed the **** out of minion stickyness/HP, they effectively nerfed Shaman to garbage tier.
Just STOP with these posts about "Shaman doesn't work, shaman bad, shaman etc". If you dont know what you are talking about just stop it. Right now shaman is a good class, yes you have a bad winrate vs any kind of paladins but if you play well and dont missplay you can easly win. I'm not talking trash, I just hit Legend for the first time last month with my Mid-range shaman and i got like 75% win rate vs all decks from rank 4 to Legend. And i got 100% win rate vs freeze mages because I know when to play Loatheb. And yes i got like 60% win rate vs all kind of paladins + my last boss for Legend was a Secret Paladin and he conceded in turn 6, WHY? because i got insane early drop + a turn 5 Ligh Storm. If you wanna get better with a class just play it all day, grind to ladder and try to tech the right cards.
For the same reason Warlock's negeative cards don't see play and don't work.
Getting 0.5 over value WITHOUT effect for 1+ mana negative drawback just doesn't cut it if you compare that to power-creep value cards like most paladin and druid cards.
Like, really a 2 (1) mana 3/4 is GOOD, but it's not "good enough" to warrant the downside. You can play any 2/3 or 3/2 WITH effect instead and no downside. Many of shaman cards are like this. Just like a 4/3 for 2 mana is not worth to lose a hand card.
Shaman is terrible against aggro. The tools Shaman was given to work with are mostly anti control tools or don't really work with Shaman's current bag of tricks. There is something to be said about a potential tempo Shaman though.
Not a bad post.
Personally I think more cards that synergize with overload would work just as well to be honest.
Lava Shock to the rescue!
Of course you don't play that on turn 3 after the previous turn's Totem Golem or anything like that. But combo this with Elemental Destruction later in the game and you've got something going on. It can also be used efficiently with other overload cards. Not saying you aren't making good points, because you do. But Lava Shock shouldn't be ignored.
There are a lot of remedies we don't yet know a disease for.