This is what I'm considering atm, except I am debating either dropping Blackwing Technician (not that strong) or Emperor Thaurissan (doesn't fit the deck very well) for Volcanic Drake to play after a devastation clear. Might be a bit light on the early game but it needs to for Far Sight to work. Totem Golem fits in every deck no matter what you make and carries your early game.
What the hell is this? You have almost no play before turn 5. Unless you hope your opponent concedes out of boredom there is no way this wins above rank 20. Replace crap like Chrommaggus, Far Sight, Refreshment Vendor with some actual 2-3 drops and you might have a chance.
It's uh, not actually terribly uncommon for control decks to run not very many low drops.
I agree that removing Emporer Thaurissan and Blackwing Technician would be correct. Basically the way control (especially dragon) shaman often plays is to make value plays over and over again. Wipe their early aggression and then follow up with constant 2-for-1s until your win conditions overrun them. In that style you don't need Thaurissan as you aren't trying to play multiple cards with eachother. He's more for malygos variants that want to burst down the opponent. I consider Technician to be a midrange card, (totem golem, too, but I can't deny his trade potential). If you go midrange route you want proactive cards during turns 3-7. In control, however, your early game is purely reactive and turns 8+ become proactive. Keep in mind that your own ele destruction could kill your technician.
I also think Charged Hammer isn't really a card you just toss in. I think it's very much for the aggro/tempo decks but could have a place in control, but it requires a lot of consideration before taking a slot. Getting the 2 damage hero power could be useful, though.
Twilight Guardian: From what I've experienced, taunts can be very unreliable in shaman control. At least, they are bad if you try to have a minion-light deck. Taunt minions give your opponent something to use removal on and half the time are just silenced when played against aggro. A stronger plan is to go for total board clear early game.
These would be my changes without doing any testing. Charged Hammer might be weak, too, but requires games to decide. I'd also be tempted to throw in some targeted burn spells that could act as removal, but that depends on finding the space to fit them.
I agree that removing Emporer Thaurissan and Blackwing Technician would be correct. Basically the way control (especially dragon) shaman often plays is to make value plays over and over again. Wipe their early aggression and then follow up with constant 2-for-1s until your win conditions overrun them. In that style you don't need Thaurissan as you aren't trying to play multiple cards with eachother. He's more for malygos variants that want to burst down the opponent. I consider Technician to be a midrange card, (totem golem, too, but I can't deny his trade potential). If you go midrange route you want proactive cards during turns 3-7. In control, however, your early game is purely reactive and turns 8+ become proactive. Keep in mind that your own ele destruction could kill your technician.
I also think Charged Hammer isn't really a card you just toss in. I think it's very much for the aggro/tempo decks but could have a place in control, but it requires a lot of consideration before taking a slot. Getting the 2 damage hero power could be useful, though.
Twilight Guardian: From what I've experienced, taunts can be very unreliable in shaman control. At least, they are bad if you try to have a minion-light deck. Taunt minions give your opponent something to use removal on and half the time are just silenced when played against aggro. A stronger plan is to go for total board clear early game.
These would be my changes without doing any testing. Charged Hammer might be weak, too, but requires games to decide. I'd also be tempted to throw in some targeted burn spells that could act as removal, but that depends on finding the space to fit them.
Thanks for the advise ggjeed. I think you are totally right on the Blackwing and Thaurissan as well as including the storms. However with Azure drakes and far sight in a control deck I really can't see having much additional draw being needed in a deck this slow, perhaps running a 1 of ancestral knowledge would be great but without lava shock I can't justify paying 4 mana for 2 cards. Far sight in a very heavy control deck offer mana ramp for future turns and a cheaper alternative for draw.
Theoretically, with chromaggus in the deck, Ancestral knowledge + chromaggus is a really value turn 10 play, but this deck doesn't seam like it could really make it to that point and come back right away playing the card value into direct tempo. If the deck turns out needing the draw from Ancestral Knowledge, and uses chromaggus effectively I could see the combo being epic, however that feels better for more of a mid range dragon shaman needing about a 4 drop on the draw to play both cards that you draw. If I opt to exclude the ancestral knowledge then perhaps subbing chromagus out for volcanic drake for a better early game would make more sense, as this deck really can't make great use of him during the same turn. Mid range dragon shaman would likely be more card staved but it's definitely worth the consideration.
The double storms I think you are right though, it's extra overload for lava shock and any extra clear would be great for aggro or zoo, they just really suffer in the control mirror match up though. perhaps crackle could be fit for early game but lightning bolt doesn't quite fit. Relying on just 2 devastations might just not cut it for board clear.
I have to disagree with you on the the Twilight guardians though, I feel are too hard to give up. In addition to contributing to dragon synergy, they are a 3/6 for 4 mana like a water elemental and taunt as gravy (good vs aggro too). They beat out piloted shredders and might live to trade with the 2 drop that follows (this is also considering some nerfed 2 drops like darnassus aspirant or the priest dragon 2 drop). Flire guard has over load, might get BGHed and is weak to silence where these drakes are a very competitive 4 drop without worrying about silence.
About charged hammer, I think you make some great points. On paper it seams like an investment for a long game with a great hero power for the deck as totems don't scale very well with a minion-light deck being the reasoning I choose to run a 1 of. But I agree it's up to testing, it could be way to slow or just really not be worth the value of 4 turns and 4 mana not even counting the face damage to activate it. I'll test it when TGT comes out hoping it pulls it's weight but I'm a bit more skeptical than I was prior to making the deck.
This is what I'm considering atm, except I am debating either dropping Blackwing Technician (not that strong) or Emperor Thaurissan (doesn't fit the deck very well) for Volcanic Drake to play after a devastation clear. Might be a bit light on the early game but it needs to for Far Sight to work. Totem Golem fits in every deck no matter what you make and carries your early game.
I don't see you dealing with zoo in any way without silence effects. Way too much deathrattle to clear with spells. Other then that, if you're gonna make all that effort to survive the early game, you really want to otk your opponent or play a game winning combo with your deck (KT double reincarnate? whatever sounds OP).
Otherwise you could just have minions for the bad spells (ele des, lava shock, far sight) and play normally until you get the big stuff out.
What the hell is this? You have almost no play before turn 5. Unless you hope your opponent concedes out of boredom there is no way this wins above rank 20. Replace crap like Chrommaggus, Far Sight, Refreshment Vendor with some actual 2-3 drops and you might have a chance.
It's uh, not actually terribly uncommon for control decks to run not very many low drops.
Other than that looks fine. Far Sight's always sort of been a weak card but this deck does stand a better chance of using it than many others.
The rock bitter and Earth shock really hurt the far sight ability, but crackle makes a great deal of sense for early game removal. Perhaps you're right on charged hammer, I really want to make the card work but some extensive testing will be needed to determine the value of it. If it ends up not adding enough a stormforged axe might be a great replacement for it. Lava shock is pretty much required for Elemental Devastation though, you can't use the spell as a come back and follow up with nothing, you just allow your opponent to take tempo back when you skip your next turn.
Far sight is essentially the core card of the deck I'd really want to make work, similar to how holy wrath paladins make greedy decks to exploit their big mana costs.
What the hell is this? You have almost no play before turn 5. Unless you hope your opponent concedes out of boredom there is no way this wins above rank 20. Replace crap like Chrommaggus, Far Sight, Refreshment Vendor with some actual 2-3 drops and you might have a chance.
It's uh, not actually terribly uncommon for control decks to run not very many low drops.
Other than that looks fine. Far Sight's always sort of been a weak card but this deck does stand a better chance of using it than many others.
The rock bitter and Earth shock really hurt the far sight ability, but crackle makes a great deal of sense for early game removal. Perhaps you're right on charged hammer, I really want to make the card work but some extensive testing will be needed to determine the value of it. If it ends up not adding enough a stormforged axe might be a great replacement for it. Lava shock is pretty much required for Elemental Devastation though, you can't use the spell as a come back and follow up with nothing, you just allow your opponent to take tempo back when you skip your next turn.
Far sight is essentially the core card of the deck I'd really want to make work, similar to how holy wrath paladins make greedy decks to exploit their big mana costs.
Yeah, I can understand that, it's just a question of lasting against aggro decks (or even coming up one damage short in other match-ups). Though with all the new healing it's possible you won't need it. You also might be able to run another taunt like Sludge Belcher to make up for it. I'd say it's really dependent on the direction the meta goes.
The thing with Elemental Destruction is you play it after they fill the board so they don't have enough cards to come back. Also keep in mind there will be times you draw it without drawing Lava Shock, and if you play Elemental Destruction on turn 5 or earlier you won't be able to use Lava Shock on the next turn (barring the coin). It also does tax the turn .
This is what I'm considering atm, except I am debating either dropping Blackwing Technician (not that strong) or Emperor Thaurissan (doesn't fit the deck very well) for Volcanic Drake to play after a devastation clear. Might be a bit light on the early game but it needs to for Far Sight to work. Totem Golem fits in every deck no matter what you make and carries your early game.
VS
It's uh, not actually terribly uncommon for control decks to run not very many low drops.
That said I do think you need more destruction, such as Rockbiter Weapon and Crackle. Maybe Earth Shock. I also don't Lava Shock is worth it solely for Elemental Destruction, and Charged Hammer feels weak to me.
Other than that looks fine. Far Sight's always sort of been a weak card but this deck does stand a better chance of using it than many others.
Zephiron finds opening his mind difficult. This is the kind of deck that wants Ancestral Knowledge and I've never thought of Elemental Destruction as a replacement Lightning Storm, but something to add to the others.
I agree that removing Emporer Thaurissan and Blackwing Technician would be correct. Basically the way control (especially dragon) shaman often plays is to make value plays over and over again. Wipe their early aggression and then follow up with constant 2-for-1s until your win conditions overrun them. In that style you don't need Thaurissan as you aren't trying to play multiple cards with eachother. He's more for malygos variants that want to burst down the opponent. I consider Technician to be a midrange card, (totem golem, too, but I can't deny his trade potential). If you go midrange route you want proactive cards during turns 3-7. In control, however, your early game is purely reactive and turns 8+ become proactive. Keep in mind that your own ele destruction could kill your technician.
I also think Charged Hammer isn't really a card you just toss in. I think it's very much for the aggro/tempo decks but could have a place in control, but it requires a lot of consideration before taking a slot. Getting the 2 damage hero power could be useful, though.
Twilight Guardian: From what I've experienced, taunts can be very unreliable in shaman control. At least, they are bad if you try to have a minion-light deck. Taunt minions give your opponent something to use removal on and half the time are just silenced when played against aggro. A stronger plan is to go for total board clear early game.
Overall:
+2 Lightning Storm
+2 Ancestral Knowledge
-2 Twilight Guardian
-1 Emperor Thaurissan
-1 Blackwing Technician
These would be my changes without doing any testing. Charged Hammer might be weak, too, but requires games to decide. I'd also be tempted to throw in some targeted burn spells that could act as removal, but that depends on finding the space to fit them.
Thanks for the advise ggjeed. I think you are totally right on the Blackwing and Thaurissan as well as including the storms. However with Azure drakes and far sight in a control deck I really can't see having much additional draw being needed in a deck this slow, perhaps running a 1 of ancestral knowledge would be great but without lava shock I can't justify paying 4 mana for 2 cards. Far sight in a very heavy control deck offer mana ramp for future turns and a cheaper alternative for draw.
Theoretically, with chromaggus in the deck, Ancestral knowledge + chromaggus is a really value turn 10 play, but this deck doesn't seam like it could really make it to that point and come back right away playing the card value into direct tempo. If the deck turns out needing the draw from Ancestral Knowledge, and uses chromaggus effectively I could see the combo being epic, however that feels better for more of a mid range dragon shaman needing about a 4 drop on the draw to play both cards that you draw. If I opt to exclude the ancestral knowledge then perhaps subbing chromagus out for volcanic drake for a better early game would make more sense, as this deck really can't make great use of him during the same turn. Mid range dragon shaman would likely be more card staved but it's definitely worth the consideration.
The double storms I think you are right though, it's extra overload for lava shock and any extra clear would be great for aggro or zoo, they just really suffer in the control mirror match up though. perhaps crackle could be fit for early game but lightning bolt doesn't quite fit. Relying on just 2 devastations might just not cut it for board clear.
I have to disagree with you on the the Twilight guardians though, I feel are too hard to give up. In addition to contributing to dragon synergy, they are a 3/6 for 4 mana like a water elemental and taunt as gravy (good vs aggro too). They beat out piloted shredders and might live to trade with the 2 drop that follows (this is also considering some nerfed 2 drops like darnassus aspirant or the priest dragon 2 drop). Flire guard has over load, might get BGHed and is weak to silence where these drakes are a very competitive 4 drop without worrying about silence.
About charged hammer, I think you make some great points. On paper it seams like an investment for a long game with a great hero power for the deck as totems don't scale very well with a minion-light deck being the reasoning I choose to run a 1 of. But I agree it's up to testing, it could be way to slow or just really not be worth the value of 4 turns and 4 mana not even counting the face damage to activate it. I'll test it when TGT comes out hoping it pulls it's weight but I'm a bit more skeptical than I was prior to making the deck.
VS
I don't see you dealing with zoo in any way without silence effects. Way too much deathrattle to clear with spells. Other then that, if you're gonna make all that effort to survive the early game, you really want to otk your opponent or play a game winning combo with your deck (KT double reincarnate? whatever sounds OP).
Otherwise you could just have minions for the bad spells (ele des, lava shock, far sight) and play normally until you get the big stuff out.
My comments refer mostly to the wild format.
The rock bitter and Earth shock really hurt the far sight ability, but crackle makes a great deal of sense for early game removal. Perhaps you're right on charged hammer, I really want to make the card work but some extensive testing will be needed to determine the value of it. If it ends up not adding enough a stormforged axe might be a great replacement for it. Lava shock is pretty much required for Elemental Devastation though, you can't use the spell as a come back and follow up with nothing, you just allow your opponent to take tempo back when you skip your next turn.
Far sight is essentially the core card of the deck I'd really want to make work, similar to how holy wrath paladins make greedy decks to exploit their big mana costs.
VS
Yeah, I can understand that, it's just a question of lasting against aggro decks (or even coming up one damage short in other match-ups). Though with all the new healing it's possible you won't need it. You also might be able to run another taunt like Sludge Belcher to make up for it. I'd say it's really dependent on the direction the meta goes.
The thing with Elemental Destruction is you play it after they fill the board so they don't have enough cards to come back. Also keep in mind there will be times you draw it without drawing Lava Shock, and if you play Elemental Destruction on turn 5 or earlier you won't be able to use Lava Shock on the next turn (barring the coin). It also does tax the turn .