I've never tried murloc Shaman as I've only heard bad things, but I'm wondering why? Shaman has all the removal you could ask for, and it has a strong burst in Bloodlust, the missing piece is simply tokens and instinctively you'd think that murloc cards + Neptulon provide that, so what is it that doesn't work?
no card draw. you run out of gas unlike warlock murloc decks. and neptulon is useless in a murlock deck, he is too slow, you want the game over before turn 7.
The problem isn't the card draw at all, imo. Shamans have more than enough card draw with the siften spiritwalker. The problem is the fact that you have to play slowly and trade your minions for the card engine to work, when the murlocs themselves are best used aggressively.
Yup, the longer the game goes on, the more apparent are the weaknesses of Murloc are. Thier 4 drop card draw engine with GvG wasn't an answer because there would have to be some kind of token generator for it to work well as a 3 drop. If you happen to have a few murlocs out by turn 4 and drop the engine down and run the other murlocs into your opponents minions for card draw you are missing the point of murloc and you're helping the opponent win.
Ironically the merman legend isn't for murloc decks, but really just a cool control effect that surprisingly helps out when you're in a bind. Its got no synergy with any kind of murloc deck out there. Until we see murlocs with higher HP or more tribal synergy, i doubt we will ever see them in ranked consistently again.
Because the quote function doesn't do what I want. "The problem isn't the card draw at all...The problem is the fact that you have to play slowly...for the card engine to work" so it's not the card draw, it's the card draw. Although, perhaps people are too focused on hyper aggro murlocs when they could do some midrange murloc deck with hungry crab and defenders or argus and hero power every turn. I've tried murloc for a brief period and discarded it quickly, but it's always worth giving it another try.
Murloc Paladin works quite well. Divine Favour and Jeeves are in for Card Draw and the Paladin Secrets synergize quite well with Murlocs. It is one of my most loved Fun Decks to play! :) If it works, it is hilarious.
Not a high legend deck, though, as it is still very draw dependent. If you cannot buff your MRGLGLGLGLs and trade efficiently, you'll loose.
Because the quote function doesn't do what I want. "The problem isn't the card draw at all...The problem is the fact that you have to play slowly...for the card engine to work" so it's not the card draw, it's the card draw. Although, perhaps people are too focused on hyper aggro murlocs when they could do some midrange murloc deck with hungry crab and defenders or argus and hero power every turn. I've tried murloc for a brief period and discarded it quickly, but it's always worth giving it another try.
I'm not sure how problem of playing slowly = problem of card draw, but I would be happy to clarify what I'm saying if you have any specific questions. You can draw many cards with Murloc shaman, it just won't be as effective because you have to run your creatures into minions.
Murlocs worked in classic with warlock because most of the other classes had no good early game. They can work with paladin because of divine favour too, but much less reliably imo. Say you get your board wiped once as a shaman, then what? You magically need to draw an additional 4 cards or so to refill the board properly, not just with w/e you can. If the opponent follows the wipe with any kind of taunt, its over. RIP concede repeat.
The problem boils down to the card draw not being good enough. In this case you can draw many cards when it works but it still has to work. The card draw is still the problem because it requires work and time to be effective, as opposed to warlock which just get's 2 cards a turn whenever it feels like it. And as Rusery points out, if you get wiped you're out of luck. No card draw then. Even paladin has a more effective way to refill after dropping it's hand. Whether the problem is there isn't enough card draw or that you have to work to get it, the problem is still in the card draw.
Problem is mainly card draw and lack of aggro in the deck if you run a Neptulon. Neptulon is unfortunately too slow in shaman decks as murloc decks are usually used to charge down the opponent not draw out the game. Not having enough cards is also an issue as your hero power is a totem which is kinda like a card but the problem is that this totem barely helps in a murloc deck. Having no cards and no control would therefore just cause defeat upon defeat and the lack of taunts is also an issue relying on your hero power sometimes to provide taunts.
Problems I've had - sustain. Shaman doesn't really have a draw engine and Murlocs are very low cost. You're going to empty your hand fast. Mana Tide Totem can't help this, in a Murloc deck you haven't got anything to protect it, Siltfin Spiritwalker can't help this. In a Murloc deck you're probably not trading, you're probably trying to rush face. Since Murlocs have generally low health, no card draw generally means if the game goes to midgame you're not going to recover after an AoE. Neptulon hasn't helped since by turn 7 if you didn't win, you've already lost.
The problem boils down to the card draw not being good enough. In this case you can draw many cards when it works but it still has to work. The card draw is still the problem because it requires work and time to be effective, as opposed to warlock which just get's 2 cards a turn whenever it feels like it. And as Rusery points out, if you get wiped you're out of luck. No card draw then. Even paladin has a more effective way to refill after dropping it's hand. Whether the problem is there isn't enough card draw or that you have to work to get it, the problem is still in the card draw.
Even if it works, it doesn't work because you traded all of your minions. It's not the card draw that's the problem, it's the fact that you have to trade minions to draw cards. If the card text read "draw 1 card every time a murloc hits face", Murloc shaman would be much, much better. In the end, it's all about face damage. The card draw isn't the problem at all. SMOrc
It's the card draw engine forcing you to trade, again it's boiling down to bad card draw. The card draw that exists doesn't work with making an aggressive deck. It all centers around the card draw in some way. If you change the engine it get's better, as it is the card draw is bad.
1) Aggressive decks need a steady source of damage. Warlocks have hero power to fuel themselves, hunters have hero power to deliver the final blow. Shamans innately do not have a way to keep the damage coming.
2) The one way they were given for this is slow and fragile. This means they either can't put the opponent under enough pressure to not develop themselves, or they just lose a key piece and it all goes down hill.
3) The engine itself means you have to redirect your damage to enemy minions which means you lengthen the clock you have your opponent at (even if you consider that you gain cards to replace the ones you lost they are now not able to attack next turn). This is mainly your point, here.
3 is just another way to say 2. Slowing your applied pressure gives the opponent more time to develop themselves and makes an already fragile system weaker. Whatever strength you developed with synergies dies to draw cards. Point 2 failing means we're back at #1 where we don't have a way to apply constant pressure. So it all boils down to card draw.
no card draw. you run out of gas unlike warlock murloc decks. and neptulon is useless in a murlock deck, he is too slow, you want the game over before turn 7.
no card draw. you run out of gas unlike warlock murloc decks. and neptulon is useless in a murlock deck, he is too slow, you want the game over before turn 7.
The key is not to play like you're a Warlock. You can always generate strong boards in mid game.
murlocs are not a midrange deck. you need to finish the match in midgame or you will get rekt when the opponent catches up.
It's the card draw engine forcing you to trade, again it's boiling down to bad card draw. The card draw that exists doesn't work with making an aggressive deck. It all centers around the card draw in some way. If you change the engine it get's better, as it is the card draw is bad.
1) Aggressive decks need a steady source of damage. Warlocks have hero power to fuel themselves, hunters have hero power to deliver the final blow. Shamans innately do not have a way to keep the damage coming.
2) The one way they were given for this is slow and fragile. This means they either can't put the opponent under enough pressure to not develop themselves, or they just lose a key piece and it all goes down hill.
3) The engine itself means you have to redirect your damage to enemy minions which means you lengthen the clock you have your opponent at (even if you consider that you gain cards to replace the ones you lost they are now not able to attack next turn). This is mainly your point, here.
3 is just another way to say 2. Slowing your applied pressure gives the opponent more time to develop themselves and makes an already fragile system weaker. Whatever strength you developed with synergies dies to draw cards. Point 2 failing means we're back at #1 where we don't have a way to apply constant pressure. So it all boils down to card draw.
It's not the number of cards you're drawing that makes you lose; it's how you're applying pressure when you draw them. Yes, it lengthens the clock your opponent has to crush you for not doing enough face damage. Card draw is what is supposed to give you face damage in aggro decks, but you're spending your cards bashing into minions. A lack of face damage is what makes you lose. It all boils down to face damage. You can't win without smashing your opponent's face. SMOrc
Bad Card Draw = Not drawing enough cards. Btw. It's not "You have to trade your minions in". That's just not hitting face enough. SMOrc
That's my point #1. In each game you need X damage to win. X is variable based on opponents ability to heal or remove minions. You also want to apply X damage as quickly as possible so they don't have time to heal or remove minions. The strategy breaks down as you run out of gas. The amount of damage you start with and gain per turn on a normal basis is not enough. You need to fuel yourself. To do that you draw more cards. The reason you are misapplying pressure (aka using your limited damage to kill their monsters). The idea that "not enough face damage" applies to ALL of hearthstone. You can't win if your opponent doesn't hit 0 hp (even with fatigue). The biggest problem that aggro specifically faces is running out of gas. The answer to that is to draw more cards. The reason warlock aggro decks (whether zoo, murloc, or other) do so well is they have hero power to draw cards. Hunter also makes up for this by just having infinite damage.
So, we look at murloc shaman. The hero power doesn't add enough damage to be significant (although we'd still roll it every turn starting at 4 or 5 to build psuedo card advantage). We use our gas then sit there. Even if we go all to face with what we started with, it's probably not enough (there will be those awesome games that just explode on the enemy, though). Now we bring in spiritfin and, to your point, have to apply our damage to their minions and kill ours to draw cards. So, the drawing stop our main objective and nullifies the gas we'll get from by blanking damage we have now.
You're arguing the exact same point as me, but not attributing it to a problem with draw. The problem of not having enough face damage is the problem of hearthstone. How do we get there? Aggro decks go "bluuueeeergh" (or MRRRRRGLRGLRGLRGLR) onto the board then get it removed and go "now what?" The answer is to draw more gas! Unfortunately, the shaman murloc GAS IT UP option is counter-productive, therefore there is a problem with our draw and therefore, the deck under performs.
Of course we don't even get into the topic of Neptulon with murloc shaman, which has been brought up by others. In theory that guy alone would add the necessary damage to fix the "You can't win without smashing your opponenent's face" problem. But, alas, he is slow and by turn 7 you often want to have won. Plus: 1/30 means there are games he doesn't show up.
Tl;dr: Yes, the problem is not enough face damage. Warlocks solve this with card draw and hunters with infinite damage to face. Shamans have no infinite damage but do have card draw. The card draw requires you to stop being aggro, therefore it is bad.
What about a murloc/spellpower deck? Since we are theorycrafting here.
Instead of using Spiritwalker to draw cards, how about 2x Azure Drake for the cantrip. Throw in Bloodmage Thalnos, an Ancient Mage or two and some big bursty cards like Lava Burst and Crackle. You can put out some ridiculous damage with a single Ancient Mage buff on 2 murlocs so maybe what the deck needs is just some spells to finish the game. Sure you can draft Neptulon in the deck in case things go south for some more psuedo card draw but it's just an idea. Hybrid Spellpower/Murloc deck :)
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I've never tried murloc Shaman as I've only heard bad things, but I'm wondering why? Shaman has all the removal you could ask for, and it has a strong burst in Bloodlust, the missing piece is simply tokens and instinctively you'd think that murloc cards + Neptulon provide that, so what is it that doesn't work?
no card draw. you run out of gas unlike warlock murloc decks. and neptulon is useless in a murlock deck, he is too slow, you want the game over before turn 7.
The problem isn't the card draw at all, imo. Shamans have more than enough card draw with the siften spiritwalker. The problem is the fact that you have to play slowly and trade your minions for the card engine to work, when the murlocs themselves are best used aggressively.
Yup, the longer the game goes on, the more apparent are the weaknesses of Murloc are. Thier 4 drop card draw engine with GvG wasn't an answer because there would have to be some kind of token generator for it to work well as a 3 drop. If you happen to have a few murlocs out by turn 4 and drop the engine down and run the other murlocs into your opponents minions for card draw you are missing the point of murloc and you're helping the opponent win.
Ironically the merman legend isn't for murloc decks, but really just a cool control effect that surprisingly helps out when you're in a bind. Its got no synergy with any kind of murloc deck out there. Until we see murlocs with higher HP or more tribal synergy, i doubt we will ever see them in ranked consistently again.
Because the quote function doesn't do what I want. "The problem isn't the card draw at all...The problem is the fact that you have to play slowly...for the card engine to work" so it's not the card draw, it's the card draw. Although, perhaps people are too focused on hyper aggro murlocs when they could do some midrange murloc deck with hungry crab and defenders or argus and hero power every turn. I've tried murloc for a brief period and discarded it quickly, but it's always worth giving it another try.
The class doesn't have enough card velocity to sustain a Murloc rush (which is how Murlocs synergize.)
Feel free to add me if you play on NA! iMPose#1429
Murloc Paladin works quite well. Divine Favour and Jeeves are in for Card Draw and the Paladin Secrets synergize quite well with Murlocs. It is one of my most loved Fun Decks to play! :) If it works, it is hilarious.
Not a high legend deck, though, as it is still very draw dependent. If you cannot buff your MRGLGLGLGLs and trade efficiently, you'll loose.
PS: See here - http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/185031-murlocadin
I'm not sure how problem of playing slowly = problem of card draw, but I would be happy to clarify what I'm saying if you have any specific questions. You can draw many cards with Murloc shaman, it just won't be as effective because you have to run your creatures into minions.
Murlocs worked in classic with warlock because most of the other classes had no good early game. They can work with paladin because of divine favour too, but much less reliably imo. Say you get your board wiped once as a shaman, then what? You magically need to draw an additional 4 cards or so to refill the board properly, not just with w/e you can. If the opponent follows the wipe with any kind of taunt, its over. RIP concede repeat.
The problem boils down to the card draw not being good enough. In this case you can draw many cards when it works but it still has to work. The card draw is still the problem because it requires work and time to be effective, as opposed to warlock which just get's 2 cards a turn whenever it feels like it. And as Rusery points out, if you get wiped you're out of luck. No card draw then. Even paladin has a more effective way to refill after dropping it's hand. Whether the problem is there isn't enough card draw or that you have to work to get it, the problem is still in the card draw.
Problem is mainly card draw and lack of aggro in the deck if you run a Neptulon. Neptulon is unfortunately too slow in shaman decks as murloc decks are usually used to charge down the opponent not draw out the game. Not having enough cards is also an issue as your hero power is a totem which is kinda like a card but the problem is that this totem barely helps in a murloc deck. Having no cards and no control would therefore just cause defeat upon defeat and the lack of taunts is also an issue relying on your hero power sometimes to provide taunts.
TX
it works.
Problems I've had - sustain. Shaman doesn't really have a draw engine and Murlocs are very low cost. You're going to empty your hand fast. Mana Tide Totem can't help this, in a Murloc deck you haven't got anything to protect it, Siltfin Spiritwalker can't help this. In a Murloc deck you're probably not trading, you're probably trying to rush face. Since Murlocs have generally low health, no card draw generally means if the game goes to midgame you're not going to recover after an AoE. Neptulon hasn't helped since by turn 7 if you didn't win, you've already lost.
So basically the missing piece of the puzzle is some consistent card draw and Murloc Shaman may then be viable for laddering?
Even if it works, it doesn't work because you traded all of your minions. It's not the card draw that's the problem, it's the fact that you have to trade minions to draw cards. If the card text read "draw 1 card every time a murloc hits face", Murloc shaman would be much, much better. In the end, it's all about face damage. The card draw isn't the problem at all. SMOrc
It's the card draw engine forcing you to trade, again it's boiling down to bad card draw. The card draw that exists doesn't work with making an aggressive deck. It all centers around the card draw in some way. If you change the engine it get's better, as it is the card draw is bad.
1) Aggressive decks need a steady source of damage. Warlocks have hero power to fuel themselves, hunters have hero power to deliver the final blow. Shamans innately do not have a way to keep the damage coming.
2) The one way they were given for this is slow and fragile. This means they either can't put the opponent under enough pressure to not develop themselves, or they just lose a key piece and it all goes down hill.
3) The engine itself means you have to redirect your damage to enemy minions which means you lengthen the clock you have your opponent at (even if you consider that you gain cards to replace the ones you lost they are now not able to attack next turn). This is mainly your point, here.
3 is just another way to say 2. Slowing your applied pressure gives the opponent more time to develop themselves and makes an already fragile system weaker. Whatever strength you developed with synergies dies to draw cards. Point 2 failing means we're back at #1 where we don't have a way to apply constant pressure. So it all boils down to card draw.
murlocs are not a midrange deck. you need to finish the match in midgame or you will get rekt when the opponent catches up.
It's not the number of cards you're drawing that makes you lose; it's how you're applying pressure when you draw them. Yes, it lengthens the clock your opponent has to crush you for not doing enough face damage. Card draw is what is supposed to give you face damage in aggro decks, but you're spending your cards bashing into minions. A lack of face damage is what makes you lose. It all boils down to face damage. You can't win without smashing your opponent's face. SMOrc
Bad Card Draw = Not drawing enough cards. Btw. It's not "You have to trade your minions in". That's just not hitting face enough. SMOrc
That's my point #1. In each game you need X damage to win. X is variable based on opponents ability to heal or remove minions. You also want to apply X damage as quickly as possible so they don't have time to heal or remove minions. The strategy breaks down as you run out of gas. The amount of damage you start with and gain per turn on a normal basis is not enough. You need to fuel yourself. To do that you draw more cards. The reason you are misapplying pressure (aka using your limited damage to kill their monsters). The idea that "not enough face damage" applies to ALL of hearthstone. You can't win if your opponent doesn't hit 0 hp (even with fatigue). The biggest problem that aggro specifically faces is running out of gas. The answer to that is to draw more cards. The reason warlock aggro decks (whether zoo, murloc, or other) do so well is they have hero power to draw cards. Hunter also makes up for this by just having infinite damage.
So, we look at murloc shaman. The hero power doesn't add enough damage to be significant (although we'd still roll it every turn starting at 4 or 5 to build psuedo card advantage). We use our gas then sit there. Even if we go all to face with what we started with, it's probably not enough (there will be those awesome games that just explode on the enemy, though). Now we bring in spiritfin and, to your point, have to apply our damage to their minions and kill ours to draw cards. So, the drawing stop our main objective and nullifies the gas we'll get from by blanking damage we have now.
You're arguing the exact same point as me, but not attributing it to a problem with draw. The problem of not having enough face damage is the problem of hearthstone. How do we get there? Aggro decks go "bluuueeeergh" (or MRRRRRGLRGLRGLRGLR) onto the board then get it removed and go "now what?" The answer is to draw more gas! Unfortunately, the shaman murloc GAS IT UP option is counter-productive, therefore there is a problem with our draw and therefore, the deck under performs.
Of course we don't even get into the topic of Neptulon with murloc shaman, which has been brought up by others. In theory that guy alone would add the necessary damage to fix the "You can't win without smashing your opponenent's face" problem. But, alas, he is slow and by turn 7 you often want to have won. Plus: 1/30 means there are games he doesn't show up.
Tl;dr: Yes, the problem is not enough face damage. Warlocks solve this with card draw and hunters with infinite damage to face. Shamans have no infinite damage but do have card draw. The card draw requires you to stop being aggro, therefore it is bad.
What about a murloc/spellpower deck? Since we are theorycrafting here.
Instead of using Spiritwalker to draw cards, how about 2x Azure Drake for the cantrip. Throw in Bloodmage Thalnos, an Ancient Mage or two and some big bursty cards like Lava Burst and Crackle. You can put out some ridiculous damage with a single Ancient Mage buff on 2 murlocs so maybe what the deck needs is just some spells to finish the game. Sure you can draft Neptulon in the deck in case things go south for some more psuedo card draw but it's just an idea. Hybrid Spellpower/Murloc deck :)