Hey Folks, I wanted to give this some more exposure and was curious If I could get some more feedback for the build. It's got alot of views but not many people have taken the time to comment on it, yet I was really heating up for the discussion aswell as looking for ways to improve the deck. Thanks =)
What's the point of Malygos when you have few damaging spells (that will probably not be aiming to the face since you'll use them in a control aspect).
Malygos here is just a greedy minion that won't pull the combo you expect it to be part of.
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Used to be a proud Handlock player.
Legend 17 times.
Still flirting with the ladder from times to times with Renolock.
Needs Gang Up... if the game goes long, you can't beat it.
Well, right now the main weakness are aggro decks. 3 out of 4 times when I go to fatigue I win. Gang Up might work here, but only when I'm already 1-3 cards left in the deck, I feel like it's a bit too much of a win more card, in any case, what would you replace that with?
What's the point of Malygos when you have few damaging spells (that will probably not be aiming to the face since you'll use them in a control aspect).
Malygos here is just a greedy minion that won't pull the combo you expect it to be part of.
It really depends on the matchup. Sometimes it's just a body to slam on the board for your arguses, but it can and often does help to insanely buff up your sub par spells. There is the occasional synergy between Ysera awakens and Malygos and even rarer you get spells from Gallywix to use with Malygos. It's not uncommon that Emperor Thaurissan ramps up your Malygos along with a fan/shiv/eviscerate to use on earlier turns.
I admit however that it is pretty greedy, yet you are playing a control deck, isn't greed good?
With only zombie chows and technicians by turn 3, it's difficult for me to see how this deck can survive against any aggro or midrange. I don't really feel that dragon synergy is the way to go with rogue, it's nice when it works, but for such a fragile hero as rogue, where your main method of removing small stuff is smashing your face into it, you really need all the consistency in stabilizing the board that you can get.
My vision of what the ideal control rogue will look like once wing 4 hits is this:
I'm super excited about hungry dragon in rogue, since we are the class that can most easily deal with the 1 drop on turn 4, likely with a backstab or a hero-power dagger from a previous turn. (The Millhouse I've put in here is completely meta-dependent. If there are a lot of spell-heavy decks running around, I would definitely switch it out for something else, probably a spider tank.)
Week 4 holds 2 very important new minions for rogue, and I'm super excited to start to put them to use.
With only zombie chows and technicians by turn 3, it's difficult for me to see how this deck can survive against any aggro or midrange. I don't really feel that dragon synergy is the way to go with rogue, it's nice when it works, but for such a fragile hero as rogue, where your main method of removing small stuff is smashing your face into it, you really need all the consistency in stabilizing the board that you can get.
My vision of what the ideal control rogue will look like once wing 4 hits is this:
I'm super excited about hungry dragon in rogue, since we are the class that can most easily deal with the 1 drop on turn 4, likely with a backstab or a hero-power dagger from a previous turn. (The Millhouse I've put in here is completely meta-dependent. If there are a lot of spell-heavy decks running around, I would definitely switch it out for something else, probably a spider tank.)
Week 4 holds 2 very important new minions for rogue, and I'm super excited to start to put them to use.
Thanks for your input, to elaborate a little bit, in the aggro matchups owl is basically a 2 drop (silence a scientist, egg, knife juggler), same for edwin, the thing is, even in the normal circumstances chow and technicians can buy you alot of time. Preparation helps immensely, you don't use it for insane ramp like oil rogue usually does. Prepping a shiv is fine occasionally.
You are absolutely right, that aggro is a serious problem for this deck right now, and I agree that next wing is pretty huge for rogue. I will definately update the list with dark iron skulker to playtest him, but I have to work with the cards available right now, I have almost 150 ladder wins with the deck at the moment.
I'm very glad your list did indeed forego the inclusion of a seemingly staple card - deadly poison which is completely detrimental to the rogue when you are trying to control board, yet sacrifice too much health for it.
I will tell you how I came to the dragons - I asked myself why was there never a reasonably viable control rogue, how does it differ from warrior, paladin and druid who are the dominating classes in that area right now. The conclusion I came to was that the class cards while very efficient, don't scale well in the late game. Compare a SI7 Agent to an Aldor peacekeeper for instance, or a Keeper of the Grove. And rogue has no lategame control options at all, except with the rise of trade prince Gallywix which is still pretty difficult to play.
So here's what you do, you have to compensate with neutral minions. Board control with chow, but what other early game drops are there? I found none particularily exciting, but what do rogues love? Spellpower. Azure drakes give spellpower, well, isn't a 3/5 the best 3 drop in the game? The rest just kinda mended together piece by piece. I would recommend you check out the deck writeup if you haven't already, it contains alot of thought and I update it daily after my laddering.
+ 2 Deadly Poison -> you need to clear minions as a control rogue! -You take too much face damage by using deadly poison
+ 1 Blade Flurry -> in combination with Deadly, great AoE. (until friday when the new Rogue card comes out) -Considering it, purely because of spellpower
+ 2 Sludge Blecher -> better then Defender imho, the only early mininions to give taunt are Chow and Blackwing Technisian -Tried and tested, argus is just more versatile, yes, it can be worse, but a sludge belcher does not nececarily gain you board, as a rogue you can't stall for an epic clear without bladeflurry, which I don't run.
+ 1 Silvanas -> best control card of the game imho -was too slow and only useful in the handlock matchup
+2 SI:7 -> deal 2 damage == take control of the board!-very good card generally, but doesn't scale well in to the lategame
Loose these cards:
-1 Rend Blackhand -> bad card, you already have Owl for silence and BGH for the Big Guys.-Rend is seriously not so bad, and since I don't have any hard removal in the deck, would you rather I 2x eviscerate a Kel'Thuzad, Antonidas or god knows what do to Ysera
-1 Malygos -> not enough direct damage spells-Malygos is mostly a body, but can get ramped with Thaurissan and get the weak Rogue spells working in the lategame
-1 Edwin van Cleef -> not a control card-correct, but it's there to help in the aggro matchups, getting a huge Cleef early against facehunter or Zoolock, then taunting him up is huge
-2 Defender of Argus -> Sludge is better-talked about sludge
-1 Shadow Step -> why is it in here?-It's just an amazing utility card, ysera, maly, Cleef get silenced? You just bounce it right back. Facehunter hitting face? Double healbot it up. Handlock plays 2 moltens? I've got the moltens in my sights... sights...
- 2 Blackwing -> not enough dragons left after my previous suggestions...
I'm trying a control-like Rogue build myself and my suggestions reflect how I see that deck. I don't do well with that deck so I might be completely wrong here. ;-)
Sorry if I was a bit brief. Answers are in bold, Thanks for the suggestions! =)
I'm very glad your list did indeed forego the inclusion of a seemingly staple card - deadly poison which is completely detrimental to the rogue when you are trying to control board, yet sacrifice too much health for it.
I totally agree, the main deck that I play is control warrior, (probably over 1000+ games with it) and when I look at Deadly Poison in a deck that doesn't rely on getting a huge Blade Flurry sweep, all I see is a 3-mana Fiery War Axe, which makes me cry a little inside.
I think that Perdition's Blade is a hugely under-rated card. Being able to do 1-2 damage, 3 damage, 2-2 damage, or 4 damage makes it one of, if not the, most versatile cards in the game. Combined with a backstab, it can clear most any turn 3 or 4 aggro board.
I also agree on the problem of Rogue's cards not scaling well into the late-game at all. To be honest, the only ones that do scale well that I can think of are Gallywix and Sap. (Sapping a Tirion just feels sooooo good)
The knife jugglers I've included in my deck are a kind of shady area for me. I don't have them in there specifically because I want them, I'm using them because I want a powerful 2-drop that demands an answer, and knife juggler just seemed like it fit the category. It's one of the cards that I could see replacing if we ever get a nice, solid 2-drop.
The knife jugglers I've included in my deck are a kind of shady area for me. I don't have them in there specifically because I want them, I'm using them because I want a powerful 2-drop that demands an answer, and knife juggler just seemed like it fit the category. It's one of the cards that I could see replacing if we ever get a nice, solid 2-drop.
Yes, that is my biggest pain at the moment aswell. I really heavily rely on the shiv + fan's + careful poking with the daggers and if that is enough I can usually carry the midgame with my huge body minions and help from arguses. Drawing blank on the first 3 turns is the biggest drawback for this deck. But there is really nothing on the 2 slot that is very appealing, I was considering wild pyromancer for a bit, but then again, you are cutting too much into your lategame, is what I feel.
I backstab a mechwarper and hit it with my dagger, provided I don't have zombie chow on the field. I am in fact testing 1 bladeflurry now without any weapon buffs, but sludge is just a big no, it does so little for board control and if i'm forced to make adjustments in that specific department i'd much rather use a shredder Yes sylvanas is too slow, I have no defensive mechanisms in the deck(besides arguses), I can't manipulate the health of my sylvanas e.g. if my oponent drops a sludge in front of sylvanas, well, great I used 6 mana to kill half a sludge, you can't drop Sylvanas on an open board, in this deck you can't hit a timing to play sylvanas at all. Ysera simply has way more synergy in the deck, yes she is also slow but she pulls more weight. 2 damage and a 3/3 body even in the early game is mediocre in the current meta, Zoo minions are too sticky, at best you kill 1 of their dudes with the combo, mech doesn't even care - most of their stuff is 3+health, I mean I'm not pulling this out of my ass, this card has jumped in and out of the deck more times than I Playthroughed N.O.L.F.2 (great game btw). All the hate for rend. The only situational thing about him is that you never have him in your hand when you need him, that applies to every card though. Dr.Boom was in fact in the deck, same reason as sylvanas, he just hit the board too late, moreover his bombs messed up my argus placements so I just couldn't stand him any longer, Ragnaros I can consider, maybe after a little bit more testing with a 2nd bladeflurry to see how clean I can keep the board. But Malygos for sure is the only thing in this deck that works as intended, he enables great comebacks.
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Hey Folks, I wanted to give this some more exposure and was curious If I could get some more feedback for the build. It's got alot of views but not many people have taken the time to comment on it, yet I was really heating up for the discussion aswell as looking for ways to improve the deck. Thanks =)
Needs Gang Up... if the game goes long, you can't beat it.
What's the point of Malygos when you have few damaging spells (that will probably not be aiming to the face since you'll use them in a control aspect).
Malygos here is just a greedy minion that won't pull the combo you expect it to be part of.
Used to be a proud Handlock player.
Legend 17 times.
Still flirting with the ladder from times to times with Renolock.
Well, right now the main weakness are aggro decks. 3 out of 4 times when I go to fatigue I win. Gang Up might work here, but only when I'm already 1-3 cards left in the deck, I feel like it's a bit too much of a win more card, in any case, what would you replace that with?
It really depends on the matchup. Sometimes it's just a body to slam on the board for your arguses, but it can and often does help to insanely buff up your sub par spells. There is the occasional synergy between Ysera awakens and Malygos and even rarer you get spells from Gallywix to use with Malygos. It's not uncommon that Emperor Thaurissan ramps up your Malygos along with a fan/shiv/eviscerate to use on earlier turns.
I admit however that it is pretty greedy, yet you are playing a control deck, isn't greed good?
With only zombie chows and technicians by turn 3, it's difficult for me to see how this deck can survive against any aggro or midrange. I don't really feel that dragon synergy is the way to go with rogue, it's nice when it works, but for such a fragile hero as rogue, where your main method of removing small stuff is smashing your face into it, you really need all the consistency in stabilizing the board that you can get.
My vision of what the ideal control rogue will look like once wing 4 hits is this:
I'm super excited about hungry dragon in rogue, since we are the class that can most easily deal with the 1 drop on turn 4, likely with a backstab or a hero-power dagger from a previous turn. (The Millhouse I've put in here is completely meta-dependent. If there are a lot of spell-heavy decks running around, I would definitely switch it out for something else, probably a spider tank.)
Week 4 holds 2 very important new minions for rogue, and I'm super excited to start to put them to use.
Thanks for your input, to elaborate a little bit, in the aggro matchups owl is basically a 2 drop (silence a scientist, egg, knife juggler), same for edwin, the thing is, even in the normal circumstances chow and technicians can buy you alot of time. Preparation helps immensely, you don't use it for insane ramp like oil rogue usually does. Prepping a shiv is fine occasionally.
You are absolutely right, that aggro is a serious problem for this deck right now, and I agree that next wing is pretty huge for rogue. I will definately update the list with dark iron skulker to playtest him, but I have to work with the cards available right now, I have almost 150 ladder wins with the deck at the moment.
I'm very glad your list did indeed forego the inclusion of a seemingly staple card - deadly poison which is completely detrimental to the rogue when you are trying to control board, yet sacrifice too much health for it.
I will tell you how I came to the dragons - I asked myself why was there never a reasonably viable control rogue, how does it differ from warrior, paladin and druid who are the dominating classes in that area right now. The conclusion I came to was that the class cards while very efficient, don't scale well in the late game. Compare a SI7 Agent to an Aldor peacekeeper for instance, or a Keeper of the Grove. And rogue has no lategame control options at all, except with the rise of trade prince Gallywix which is still pretty difficult to play.
So here's what you do, you have to compensate with neutral minions. Board control with chow, but what other early game drops are there? I found none particularily exciting, but what do rogues love? Spellpower. Azure drakes give spellpower, well, isn't a 3/5 the best 3 drop in the game? The rest just kinda mended together piece by piece. I would recommend you check out the deck writeup if you haven't already, it contains alot of thought and I update it daily after my laddering.
Again, thanks for your input
I totally agree, the main deck that I play is control warrior, (probably over 1000+ games with it) and when I look at Deadly Poison in a deck that doesn't rely on getting a huge Blade Flurry sweep, all I see is a 3-mana Fiery War Axe, which makes me cry a little inside.
I think that Perdition's Blade is a hugely under-rated card. Being able to do 1-2 damage, 3 damage, 2-2 damage, or 4 damage makes it one of, if not the, most versatile cards in the game. Combined with a backstab, it can clear most any turn 3 or 4 aggro board.
I also agree on the problem of Rogue's cards not scaling well into the late-game at all. To be honest, the only ones that do scale well that I can think of are Gallywix and Sap. (Sapping a Tirion just feels sooooo good)
The knife jugglers I've included in my deck are a kind of shady area for me. I don't have them in there specifically because I want them, I'm using them because I want a powerful 2-drop that demands an answer, and knife juggler just seemed like it fit the category. It's one of the cards that I could see replacing if we ever get a nice, solid 2-drop.
Yes, that is my biggest pain at the moment aswell. I really heavily rely on the shiv + fan's + careful poking with the daggers and if that is enough I can usually carry the midgame with my huge body minions and help from arguses. Drawing blank on the first 3 turns is the biggest drawback for this deck. But there is really nothing on the 2 slot that is very appealing, I was considering wild pyromancer for a bit, but then again, you are cutting too much into your lategame, is what I feel.
Quick answering
I backstab a mechwarper and hit it with my dagger, provided I don't have zombie chow on the field.
I am in fact testing 1 bladeflurry now without any weapon buffs, but sludge is just a big no, it does so little for board control and if i'm forced to make adjustments in that specific department i'd much rather use a shredder
Yes sylvanas is too slow, I have no defensive mechanisms in the deck(besides arguses), I can't manipulate the health of my sylvanas e.g. if my oponent drops a sludge in front of sylvanas, well, great I used 6 mana to kill half a sludge, you can't drop Sylvanas on an open board, in this deck you can't hit a timing to play sylvanas at all. Ysera simply has way more synergy in the deck, yes she is also slow but she pulls more weight.
2 damage and a 3/3 body even in the early game is mediocre in the current meta, Zoo minions are too sticky, at best you kill 1 of their dudes with the combo, mech doesn't even care - most of their stuff is 3+health, I mean I'm not pulling this out of my ass, this card has jumped in and out of the deck more times than I Playthroughed N.O.L.F.2 (great game btw).
All the hate for rend. The only situational thing about him is that you never have him in your hand when you need him, that applies to every card though.
Dr.Boom was in fact in the deck, same reason as sylvanas, he just hit the board too late, moreover his bombs messed up my argus placements so I just couldn't stand him any longer, Ragnaros I can consider, maybe after a little bit more testing with a 2nd bladeflurry to see how clean I can keep the board. But Malygos for sure is the only thing in this deck that works as intended, he enables great comebacks.