This is my most current build of rogue combo and it's been performing pretty well in cockatrice testing. I think that it's a good starting point for people who are interested in building this type of deck. If anyone has any questions or suggestions, please let me know.
Card Analysis
Minions
Edwin VanCleef- Edwin is an amazingly undercosted fatty in this deck. Between Preparation, other 0 cost spells and a plethora of 1 cost spells, you should be able to make him at least a 7/7 if you cast him on turn 4 (with the coin, an 11/11 on turn 4 is totally doable). He provides excellent pressure to your opponent's life total and is almost guaranteed to get to attack at least once. He is also one of the three big reasons that this deck tries to cast more spells in a turn than just 2 (the minimum to activate combo on most cards).
Wild Pyromancer- Since this deck plans to cast a lot of spells, a turn 2 Pyromancer is almost always able to board wipe on turn 3 if I need it. If my opponent doesn't commit as many threats to the board (in fear of pyromancer) that buys me time to build up a hand for bigger spell chains. Since this deck cares about your opponent's life total, it's also nice that he gets in for 3.
Mana Addict- This card is insane. Often times your opponent can't kill a 2 drop with 3 health right away, especially if you go first. Starting your turn with this in play means that your opponent is likely to be taking 7 damage from it alone at least. It's also great at carrying the Cold Blood bonus into the red zone for an additional 4 damage.
Gadgetzan Auctioneer- This too is insane. In a deck that likes to cast as many spells as this one, it's no surprise that the Auctioneer made the list. He turns every spell you play into more spells for you to throw at your opponent, allowing for some really ridiculous chains.
Questing Adventurer- While not as immediately explosive as Mana Addict, this card can take advantage of creatures being played as well, and it gains value from things that are played the turn it is summoned as well. It's a bit more long term than Mana Addict though, and is a great Conceal target.
Novice Engineer- This is just a body that doesn't cost a card. It's a fine (if slightly expensive) way to start combos and also a solid turn 2 play. Swings for 1 and also carries Cold Blood.
Bloodmage Thalnos- Shiv does 2, Sinister Strike does 4, Eviscerate does 5, Headcrack does 3, Backstab does 3. He also replaces himself when he dies. An all around efficient creature with some solid utility.
Spells
Cold Blood- This card will often do 4-8 damage to your opponent, making it the most efficient damaging spell rogue has access to. However, it does require that you have a creature and that your opponent doesn't have a taunter you can't deal with. This makes it a bit less reliable than Sinister Strike.
Headcrack- It's 2 damage that doesn't cost a card. Unless you're holding VanCleef and want to save spells, play this card for value every chance you get. Unless it will be lethal or you need it to start a combo, never play this naked. It's Rogue's only reliable source of recurring damage and is great at beating a "stabilized" opponent. It also combos with Gadgetzan Auctioneer to let you build your hand while casting spell chains every turn.
Shiv- This is an ultra-efficient damaging spell. Kills 1 toughness minions and cycles, which is nice. Deals 1 to the face and cycles, which is also nice. Starts combos, draws 2 with Auctioneer, deals 2 with Thalnos. Great card with lots of synergy and no downside.
Sinister Strike- This is a bit less versatile than Shiv, but is also a great combo starter. 3 to the face is nothing to laugh at.
Conceal- This card can be used to prevent your opponent from killing your key offensive minion or to give your minions time to stick around. Targets: Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Questing Adventurer, Edwin VanCleef (giving him stealth again after he attacks is nice), Mana Addict (if you play Addict on turn 3, Concealing it usually means it'll be alive turn 4 and you can go nuts). I have concealed Thalnos and Pyromancer on occasion as well, though these plays are typically less good.
Preparation- This is the card that lets you cast 5 spells on turn 4 or whatever. It allows for larger spell chains earlier. It's a great combo starter. It also allows you to take advantage of Gadgetzan Auctioneer the turn you play it even if you play it on curve. Going Auctioneer, Preparation, Headcrack is pretty awesome.
Eviscerate- This and Shiv are the two best damaging spells in the deck (and two of the best damaging spells in the game). Kills something that needs to die or does 4 to the face. Don't be afraid to start combos with this if there's a 2 health minion that needs to go.
Sap- This is the worst card in the deck a lot of the time, but it's one that's still needed. It gives you a way to beat really big taunters and can also be used to buy you a turn. This is mostly in the deck so you don't lose to turn 5 Molten Giant + Taunt or Earth Elemental or whatever.
Backstab- Removal that costs 0 is good removal. It starts combos and is also a very nice tempo card.
Although i haven't messed with making a rogue deck much, i can tell you that i've gone up against some nasty rogues and these were the cards they were using. I've been killed on my 3rd turn (their 4th- but they literally had the perfect hand) and i've been killed twice on my 4th (their 5th). Mana Addict was the key to each of these early wins so it's a bit dependent, but very nasty indeed
sooo, although i'm not much direct help here.. i can vouch that this is at least on the right path
oh- on 2nd glance- if you are putting in questing adventurers, throw a conceal or two in there if you can. stealthed adventurers become very unfair very quickly
I like the look of the deck and have seen some of your games where it worked well. I will definitely be trying this deck out on Cockatrice as I was looking for a combo/spell deck. Do you feel the Mana Addicts are a better addition than Kobold Geomancers? Youre right in that 3 drops are hard to kill but if they have a taunt minion it might be less effective whereas the spell power from Kobold would help.
Mana Addict is much better than Kobold Geomancer in my opinion. The Geomancer does an extra 1 damage per spell while the Addict does 2, Geomancer has 1 less health, and it can only take advantage of damaging spells. Taunt can be an issue, but the magic number for taunt is 4 and Addict gets in on turn 3. You're also running two Sap, and enough damaging removal to kill a cheap taunter fairly consistently (I don't think there's a taunter under 4 mana that can take an Eviscerate).
If you're confronted with a more expensive taunter (i.e. too big to kill with removal), you have 3 options:
1. Sap.
2. Make a really big VanCleef/Questing Adventurer that can run over the taunter
3. Kill them with spells (this is usually only an option if you already got in for significant early damage before they stabilized). In the cases where this is your best play, they're either at 4 and Geomancer won't matter because they're dead to 2 turns of headcrack or you're in for an uphill fight even WITH Geomancer. Besides, you do have Bloodmage Thalnos.
Mana Addict is much better than Kobold Geomancer in my opinion. The Geomancer does an extra 1 damage per spell while the Addict does 2, Geomancer has 1 less health, and it can only take advantage of damaging spells. Taunt can be an issue, but the magic number for taunt is 4 and Addict gets in on turn 3. You're also running two Sap, and enough damaging removal to kill a cheap taunter fairly consistently (I don't think there's a taunter under 4 mana that can take an Eviscerate).
If you're confronted with a more expensive taunter (i.e. too big to kill with removal), you have 3 options:
1. Sap.
2. Make a really big VanCleef/Questing Adventurer that can run over the taunter
3. Kill them with spells (this is usually only an option if you already got in for significant early damage before they stabilized). In the cases where this is your best play, they're either at 4 and Geomancer won't matter because they're dead to 2 turns of headcrack or you're in for an uphill fight even WITH Geomancer. Besides, you do have Bloodmage Thalnos.
You only have Conceal to make your creatures survive on the board, I'm surprised.
let's build it and try it. We'll come back to you with our conclusions; our rogue is really different and it can be a good idea to mix them together a little. :)
against this paladin, I played 5 games, no side board.
First game: 2 Mana Addicts on rogue side from the very first turns, bad hand on Pal side. Mana addicts dealt like 20 dmg just by themselves. 1-0
2nd game: faerie dragon under divine shield for the pal gave him the early board control. the rogue didn't manage to come back, even with a huge stealthed Auctioneer. 1-1
3rd game: Lorewalker Cho with Divine Shield was a nightmare for the rogue early game. Never recovered from that one. 1-2
4th game: the first really interesting game. Both deck got good starts and a lot of combos on both side changed the side of game. Van Cleef with Conceal, Peacekeeper and Brewmasters, etc. Thalnos with 2 Headcrack gave the game to the rogue at the very right moment when the Pal was about to launch his deadly attack. 2-2
5th game: a good one, but on the Pally side. Faerie Dragon is too much of a pain early game, and Tirion Fordring ended the game. Two Truesilver Champions and a recurring Big Game Hunter dealt with all the rogue's threats easily. 2-3
then I played a Mage against it. It's a good mage, but he doesn't have any weapon hate.
First game: A Mana Addict went crazy and killed the Mage while he was trying to deal with the Adventurers. Easy 1-0
2nd game: early game for the rogue, once again, with the Mana Addicts and the Adventurers. But the mage dealt with them anyway. With his dagger and Headcrack, the Rogue tried to race the Mage who filled the board with too much resilient minions (Water Elem, Mana Wyrm, Arcanist, etc) and won because of them. 1-1
3rd game: Early for rogue, mage destroys the threats and drops Kirin Tor Mage with Counterspell and an Arcanist who took the game by himself. 1-2
i stopped here cause I got what is good and what is not good in your deck.
What I liked:
- Conceal is insane in this deck. It gives both board control and a chance for your minions to stay alive.
- Van Cleef, Questing Adventurer and Mana Addict are really good threats.
- Auctionners are an acceptable draw engine.
- Headcrack is a correct finisher.
What I think you should change:
- Sinister Strike is plain useless and a pure card disadvantage.
- When your threats are gone, your deck is harmless.
- Wild Pyromancers and Novice Engineers are terrible. Just remove them. ^^
Thanks for the feedback I'll try it out. Wild Pyromancer was a recent addition as I found it good for slowing down really fast decks, though I agree that this probably isn't the place for it. All the replacement cards seem solid.
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This is my most current build of rogue combo and it's been performing pretty well in cockatrice testing. I think that it's a good starting point for people who are interested in building this type of deck. If anyone has any questions or suggestions, please let me know.
Card Analysis
Minions
Edwin VanCleef- Edwin is an amazingly undercosted fatty in this deck. Between Preparation, other 0 cost spells and a plethora of 1 cost spells, you should be able to make him at least a 7/7 if you cast him on turn 4 (with the coin, an 11/11 on turn 4 is totally doable). He provides excellent pressure to your opponent's life total and is almost guaranteed to get to attack at least once. He is also one of the three big reasons that this deck tries to cast more spells in a turn than just 2 (the minimum to activate combo on most cards).
Wild Pyromancer- Since this deck plans to cast a lot of spells, a turn 2 Pyromancer is almost always able to board wipe on turn 3 if I need it. If my opponent doesn't commit as many threats to the board (in fear of pyromancer) that buys me time to build up a hand for bigger spell chains. Since this deck cares about your opponent's life total, it's also nice that he gets in for 3.
Mana Addict- This card is insane. Often times your opponent can't kill a 2 drop with 3 health right away, especially if you go first. Starting your turn with this in play means that your opponent is likely to be taking 7 damage from it alone at least. It's also great at carrying the Cold Blood bonus into the red zone for an additional 4 damage.
Gadgetzan Auctioneer- This too is insane. In a deck that likes to cast as many spells as this one, it's no surprise that the Auctioneer made the list. He turns every spell you play into more spells for you to throw at your opponent, allowing for some really ridiculous chains.
Questing Adventurer- While not as immediately explosive as Mana Addict, this card can take advantage of creatures being played as well, and it gains value from things that are played the turn it is summoned as well. It's a bit more long term than Mana Addict though, and is a great Conceal target.
Novice Engineer- This is just a body that doesn't cost a card. It's a fine (if slightly expensive) way to start combos and also a solid turn 2 play. Swings for 1 and also carries Cold Blood.
Bloodmage Thalnos- Shiv does 2, Sinister Strike does 4, Eviscerate does 5, Headcrack does 3, Backstab does 3. He also replaces himself when he dies. An all around efficient creature with some solid utility.
Spells
Cold Blood- This card will often do 4-8 damage to your opponent, making it the most efficient damaging spell rogue has access to. However, it does require that you have a creature and that your opponent doesn't have a taunter you can't deal with. This makes it a bit less reliable than Sinister Strike.
Headcrack- It's 2 damage that doesn't cost a card. Unless you're holding VanCleef and want to save spells, play this card for value every chance you get. Unless it will be lethal or you need it to start a combo, never play this naked. It's Rogue's only reliable source of recurring damage and is great at beating a "stabilized" opponent. It also combos with Gadgetzan Auctioneer to let you build your hand while casting spell chains every turn.
Shiv- This is an ultra-efficient damaging spell. Kills 1 toughness minions and cycles, which is nice. Deals 1 to the face and cycles, which is also nice. Starts combos, draws 2 with Auctioneer, deals 2 with Thalnos. Great card with lots of synergy and no downside.
Sinister Strike- This is a bit less versatile than Shiv, but is also a great combo starter. 3 to the face is nothing to laugh at.
Conceal- This card can be used to prevent your opponent from killing your key offensive minion or to give your minions time to stick around. Targets: Gadgetzan Auctioneer, Questing Adventurer, Edwin VanCleef (giving him stealth again after he attacks is nice), Mana Addict (if you play Addict on turn 3, Concealing it usually means it'll be alive turn 4 and you can go nuts). I have concealed Thalnos and Pyromancer on occasion as well, though these plays are typically less good.
Preparation- This is the card that lets you cast 5 spells on turn 4 or whatever. It allows for larger spell chains earlier. It's a great combo starter. It also allows you to take advantage of Gadgetzan Auctioneer the turn you play it even if you play it on curve. Going Auctioneer, Preparation, Headcrack is pretty awesome.
Eviscerate- This and Shiv are the two best damaging spells in the deck (and two of the best damaging spells in the game). Kills something that needs to die or does 4 to the face. Don't be afraid to start combos with this if there's a 2 health minion that needs to go.
Sap- This is the worst card in the deck a lot of the time, but it's one that's still needed. It gives you a way to beat really big taunters and can also be used to buy you a turn. This is mostly in the deck so you don't lose to turn 5 Molten Giant + Taunt or Earth Elemental or whatever.
Backstab- Removal that costs 0 is good removal. It starts combos and is also a very nice tempo card.
Although i haven't messed with making a rogue deck much, i can tell you that i've gone up against some nasty rogues and these were the cards they were using. I've been killed on my 3rd turn (their 4th- but they literally had the perfect hand) and i've been killed twice on my 4th (their 5th). Mana Addict was the key to each of these early wins so it's a bit dependent, but very nasty indeed
sooo, although i'm not much direct help here.. i can vouch that this is at least on the right path
oh- on 2nd glance- if you are putting in questing adventurers, throw a conceal or two in there if you can. stealthed adventurers become very unfair very quickly
I have 2 conceal.
whoops! completely skipped over that. don't mind me- i'm drunk.
I like the look of the deck and have seen some of your games where it worked well. I will definitely be trying this deck out on Cockatrice as I was looking for a combo/spell deck. Do you feel the Mana Addicts are a better addition than Kobold Geomancers? Youre right in that 3 drops are hard to kill but if they have a taunt minion it might be less effective whereas the spell power from Kobold would help.
Mana Addict is much better than Kobold Geomancer in my opinion. The Geomancer does an extra 1 damage per spell while the Addict does 2, Geomancer has 1 less health, and it can only take advantage of damaging spells. Taunt can be an issue, but the magic number for taunt is 4 and Addict gets in on turn 3. You're also running two Sap, and enough damaging removal to kill a cheap taunter fairly consistently (I don't think there's a taunter under 4 mana that can take an Eviscerate).
If you're confronted with a more expensive taunter (i.e. too big to kill with removal), you have 3 options:
1. Sap.
2. Make a really big VanCleef/Questing Adventurer that can run over the taunter
3. Kill them with spells (this is usually only an option if you already got in for significant early damage before they stabilized). In the cases where this is your best play, they're either at 4 and Geomancer won't matter because they're dead to 2 turns of headcrack or you're in for an uphill fight even WITH Geomancer. Besides, you do have Bloodmage Thalnos.
kk will give it a go
You only have Conceal to make your creatures survive on the board, I'm surprised.
let's build it and try it. We'll come back to you with our conclusions; our rogue is really different and it can be a good idea to mix them together a little. :)
I have an opinion on almost everything. :)
against this paladin, I played 5 games, no side board.
First game: 2 Mana Addicts on rogue side from the very first turns, bad hand on Pal side. Mana addicts dealt like 20 dmg just by themselves. 1-0
2nd game: faerie dragon under divine shield for the pal gave him the early board control. the rogue didn't manage to come back, even with a huge stealthed Auctioneer. 1-1
3rd game: Lorewalker Cho with Divine Shield was a nightmare for the rogue early game. Never recovered from that one. 1-2
4th game: the first really interesting game. Both deck got good starts and a lot of combos on both side changed the side of game. Van Cleef with Conceal, Peacekeeper and Brewmasters, etc. Thalnos with 2 Headcrack gave the game to the rogue at the very right moment when the Pal was about to launch his deadly attack. 2-2
5th game: a good one, but on the Pally side. Faerie Dragon is too much of a pain early game, and Tirion Fordring ended the game. Two Truesilver Champions and a recurring Big Game Hunter dealt with all the rogue's threats easily. 2-3
then I played a Mage against it. It's a good mage, but he doesn't have any weapon hate.
First game: A Mana Addict went crazy and killed the Mage while he was trying to deal with the Adventurers. Easy 1-0
2nd game: early game for the rogue, once again, with the Mana Addicts and the Adventurers. But the mage dealt with them anyway. With his dagger and Headcrack, the Rogue tried to race the Mage who filled the board with too much resilient minions (Water Elem, Mana Wyrm, Arcanist, etc) and won because of them. 1-1
3rd game: Early for rogue, mage destroys the threats and drops Kirin Tor Mage with Counterspell and an Arcanist who took the game by himself. 1-2
i stopped here cause I got what is good and what is not good in your deck.
What I liked:
- Conceal is insane in this deck. It gives both board control and a chance for your minions to stay alive.
- Van Cleef, Questing Adventurer and Mana Addict are really good threats.
- Auctionners are an acceptable draw engine.
- Headcrack is a correct finisher.
What I think you should change:
- Sinister Strike is plain useless and a pure card disadvantage.
- When your threats are gone, your deck is harmless.
- Wild Pyromancers and Novice Engineers are terrible. Just remove them. ^^
Now here is my variation of your rogue deck:
- to remove: Wild Pyromancer x2, Sinister Strike x2, Headcrack x1, Novice Engineer x1.
- to add: Acidic Swamp Ooze x2, Deadly Poison x2, Master of Disguise x2
Tell me what you think. I hope it will help. :)
I have an opinion on almost everything. :)
Thanks for the feedback I'll try it out. Wild Pyromancer was a recent addition as I found it good for slowing down really fast decks, though I agree that this probably isn't the place for it. All the replacement cards seem solid.