Preparation seems to limit many interesting rogue spells such as recently Necrium Vial, but without it, It would not feel you're playing as Rogue but other classes. Here's why:
Rogue is well known for having unique archetype called miracle and has other archetypes too. In miracle archetype, you use many cards in one turn to gain lethal. In other ways, she can activate her minions that requires a combo such as SI:7 Agent and Vilespine Slayer.
Preparation is a different story, it can shorten a spell's cost you need to cast in one turn then play some cards, but without preparation... what's the point of existent of rogue? It's a class that has a unique trait compared to many other classes. A class that specializes in playing many cards in one turn and activate a card that requires combo. It can also play a card that has a high cost that can be shortened into a sweet short mana such as Sprint.
Heck, even I'm non-Rogue player, I enjoyed most of my matches playing against Rogue as they have played interesting combos. BUT, I may be wrong too, so let's talk about it! Does preparation make her broken class or an interesting class?
I think the best way to handle it would rotating Preparation out and releasing a powerful Miracle card when the devs want that archetype to have a spot in the meta.
You're right when you say that Prep limits design space of Rogue spells, and I think that's fine, but not for an evergreen card.
Very interesting indeed but of course ad time goes by, it becomes quite stale to see the same again and again. I vote for Core Sets (rotating) in Standard instead of an eternal Classic set that always affects Standard.
Also I think both Prep and Shadowstep are on the danger-list/watch-list.
I think preperation needs to get HoF-ed as it very much restricts designspace of Rogue spells. I do believe that cards need to be replaced. As it would leave Rogue in a similar position as Mage, having two cards ripped from the classic set, 1 Common and 1 Epic.
Well considering that you can now in Standard go Kobold Illusionist -> 2x (Preparation + Necrium Vial) + 2x Sinister Strike for 46 damage from hand assuming you only have Malygos in hand, I think its safe to say both Preparation and Malygos may be something they consider moving to Wild, this expansion in particular is showing how much Malygos limits what can be done with certain cards (Druid, Shaman and Rogue at least should have some pretty powerful combos in Standard that are being enabled by cards introduced in this expansion). Honestly I think they should only rotate Preparation if they intend to give Rogue spells more reasonable costs, otherwise they risk making Rogue very weak (or force them into midrange minion style decks only). If it wasn't for Preparation though I don't think we would be seeing a 5 mana Necrium Vial, which honestly seems overcosted by like 2 mana.
Very interesting indeed but of course ad time goes by, it becomes quite stale to see the same again and again. I vote for Core Sets (rotating) in Standard instead of an eternal Classic set that always affects Standard.
Also I think both Prep and Shadowstep are on the danger-list/watch-list.
I agree it's boring to see the same card again, but it would be hard for devs to create a similar miracle card. And yeah, that watch-list is pretty important for Blizzards to note down before they create cards.
I think preperation needs to get HoF-ed as it very much restricts designspace of Rogue spells. I do believe that cards need to be replaced. As it would leave Rogue in a similar position as Mage, having two cards ripped from the classic set, 1 Common and 1 Epic.
Maybe If Blizzard can create interesting core card for Rogue, then we don't need Preparation.
If it's true that every rouge spell ever was designed with prep in mind, it leaves us with a big problem for rotating prep: Rotating prep would utterly cripple rouge unless every spell currently available to rouge would be buffed.
If it's true that every rouge spell ever was designed with prep in mind, it leaves us with a big problem for rotating prep: Rotating prep would utterly cripple rouge unless every spell currently available to rouge would be buffed.
EXACTLY!
The card is so much of a designed restricted that every spell needs to be built around it. It would be incredibly difficult for rogue to see play if it to be removed from standard because every spell is made with it in mind, which makes me to believe it will not be HoF'd, but mayve a nerf?
Preparation is one of the worst card designs in card games history! It limits design so much, every spell Rogue gets ever has to cost 1 or 2 mana more just because prep exists
No doubt about it, this card is powerful and I do mean POWERFUL. It allows combos that normally wouldn't be allowed (due to maximum mana restriction). It's a card that will enable combo effects on its own but there are also forced usages lets not forget situations like this: sometimes You have to play Vilespine Slayer and the only spell in your hand is Preparation. Thanks to this card and Gadgetzan Auctioneer we will always have Miracle Rogue available in the meta especially when the 1st set of the year that will rotate 3 expansions. That was the case when Ungoro came out and Witchwood hold this to be true for now.
Currently it's played win rate is 51.4% (source: hsreplay.net). So it seems balanced. But is it balanced thanks to expensive cards like Necrium Vial or WANTED! (I played WANTED! it wasn't that bad still not amazing or anything). Well nobody is currently playing WANTED! and card is still average on it's win rate.
I do feel that Rouge cards are on the expensive side. But I can't back up that with any data, and feeling are delusional data are facts. I think that T5 know what they are doing and tested this. Right?
I don't know much about that class and its meta, but thank you for giving us an insight.
I don't know if they tested this or not... But I hope T5 knows what they are doing from the beginning of the day on Hearthstone till now.
Preparation is one of the worst card designs in card games history! It limits design so much, every spell Rogue gets ever has to cost 1 or 2 mana more just because prep exists
Did you even read my thread's main paragraph... It makes rogue a unique class not a busted one. Sure in current meta Rogue can be powerful, but without it, she would have hard to keep up.
I think that if Prep becomes a major issue the only possible way to deal with it is to nerf it by reducing the mana discount or giving it a 1 mana cost. I don't think we are already at that point, also, the mana cost for the cards that are coming out for Rogue it's fine as standalone. If they costed less they would be completely broken.
Malygos and Alexstrasza need to be hall of famed, not Prep. Or put Dirty Rat in the classic set.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Remember playing Control Shaman with Reincarnate shenanigans? No? It was fun, here's a refresher!
I'm curious, there's lots of reference to the limits of design space but what does that tangibly refer to?
I always saw Prep as a paradigm of the Rogue "glass cannon" identity. The advantage it gives you needs to be cashed in else you're at a card disadvantage later on? Early game at the cost of late game.
I'm not a rogue main, so if this isn't the actuality I'm happy to be corrected.
I'm curious, there's lots of reference to the limits of design space but what does that tangibly refer to?
I always saw Prep as a paradigm of the Rogue "glass cannon" identity. The advantage it gives you needs to be cashed in else you're at a card disadvantage later on? Early game at the cost of late game.
I'm not a rogue main, so if this isn't the actuality I'm happy to be corrected.
It's in reference to The new rogue spell that casts a death rattle twice (I think) that is overpriced (should arguably cost 3 mana since play dead costs 1 and the bundling mana increase) so you can't use the spell on a devilsaur egg on turn three and get 2 5/5s. The card should cost (3) but can't because prep.
I'm curious, there's lots of reference to the limits of design space but what does that tangibly refer to?
I always saw Prep as a paradigm of the Rogue "glass cannon" identity. The advantage it gives you needs to be cashed in else you're at a card disadvantage later on? Early game at the cost of late game.
I'm not a rogue main, so if this isn't the actuality I'm happy to be corrected.
The design space limit thing means that Rogue spells cannot be too cheap if they have good synergy with other cards.
For instance, the new Necrium Vial is 2 Play Deads in one, but it costs 5 times more. Why? Because if it costed 3 Mana (a fair cost for the effect), you could do Devilsaur Egg + Preparation + Necrium Vial to put 2 5/5 on the board as early as turn 3. And that's obviously not desirable.
I'm curious, there's lots of reference to the limits of design space but what does that tangibly refer to?
I always saw Prep as a paradigm of the Rogue "glass cannon" identity. The advantage it gives you needs to be cashed in else you're at a card disadvantage later on? Early game at the cost of late game.
I'm not a rogue main, so if this isn't the actuality I'm happy to be corrected.
The design space limit thing means that Rogue spells cannot be too cheap if they have good synergy with other cards.
For instance, the new Necrium Vial is 2 Play Deads in one, but it costs 5 times more. Why? Because if it costed 3 Mana (a fair cost for the effect), you could do Devilsaur Egg + Preparation + Necrium Vial to put 2 5/5 on the board as early as turn 3. And that's obviously not desirable.
I play rogue main at a relatively high level (usually between steering-wheel ranks 10 and 2). Because Rogue relies heavily on combo cards, having a "0" mana activator becomes nearly priceless. Prep gives an option besides Backstab [/card]to cheat some extra value out of generally very mediocre or overpriced Rogue Spells and still potentially get a combo off ([card]Sprint, WANTED!, Fan of Knives, Vanish).
I wouldn't look at it as a design restriction, but more as a theme for the class in general. If anyone should be able to cheat extra value out of cards for burst damage, it should be Rogue.
This allows for the designers to create cards which will not necessarily be useful in every Rogue deck, but become playable; while not often overpowered when considering the general metagame (Odd Rogue is one of the most consistent rogue archetypes, but does not generally use Preparation). Keep in mind after all that you only get 2 per game, so as a player you must know the optimal time to use your Preps.
Preparation seems to limit many interesting rogue spells such as recently Necrium Vial, but without it, It would not feel you're playing as Rogue but other classes. Here's why:
Rogue is well known for having unique archetype called miracle and has other archetypes too. In miracle archetype, you use many cards in one turn to gain lethal. In other ways, she can activate her minions that requires a combo such as SI:7 Agent and Vilespine Slayer.
Preparation is a different story, it can shorten a spell's cost you need to cast in one turn then play some cards, but without preparation... what's the point of existent of rogue? It's a class that has a unique trait compared to many other classes. A class that specializes in playing many cards in one turn and activate a card that requires combo. It can also play a card that has a high cost that can be shortened into a sweet short mana such as Sprint.
Heck, even I'm non-Rogue player, I enjoyed most of my matches playing against Rogue as they have played interesting combos. BUT, I may be wrong too, so let's talk about it! Does preparation make her broken class or an interesting class?
I like elementals and totems.
I think the best way to handle it would rotating Preparation out and releasing a powerful Miracle card when the devs want that archetype to have a spot in the meta.
You're right when you say that Prep limits design space of Rogue spells, and I think that's fine, but not for an evergreen card.
Very interesting indeed but of course ad time goes by, it becomes quite stale to see the same again and again. I vote for Core Sets (rotating) in Standard instead of an eternal Classic set that always affects Standard.
Also I think both Prep and Shadowstep are on the danger-list/watch-list.
I think preperation needs to get HoF-ed as it very much restricts designspace of Rogue spells. I do believe that cards need to be replaced. As it would leave Rogue in a similar position as Mage, having two cards ripped from the classic set, 1 Common and 1 Epic.
Well considering that you can now in Standard go Kobold Illusionist -> 2x (Preparation + Necrium Vial) + 2x Sinister Strike for 46 damage from hand assuming you only have Malygos in hand, I think its safe to say both Preparation and Malygos may be something they consider moving to Wild, this expansion in particular is showing how much Malygos limits what can be done with certain cards (Druid, Shaman and Rogue at least should have some pretty powerful combos in Standard that are being enabled by cards introduced in this expansion). Honestly I think they should only rotate Preparation if they intend to give Rogue spells more reasonable costs, otherwise they risk making Rogue very weak (or force them into midrange minion style decks only). If it wasn't for Preparation though I don't think we would be seeing a 5 mana Necrium Vial, which honestly seems overcosted by like 2 mana.
I agree it's boring to see the same card again, but it would be hard for devs to create a similar miracle card. And yeah, that watch-list is pretty important for Blizzards to note down before they create cards.
Maybe If Blizzard can create interesting core card for Rogue, then we don't need Preparation.
I like elementals and totems.
If it's true that every rouge spell ever was designed with prep in mind, it leaves us with a big problem for rotating prep: Rotating prep would utterly cripple rouge unless every spell currently available to rouge would be buffed.
I was being optimistic about this card not getting rotating out, it definitely should stay because it's a great card!
I like elementals and totems.
If it rotates out, you get fully refunded for the golden preps and even get to keep the cards, so you actually gain dust
EXACTLY!
The card is so much of a designed restricted that every spell needs to be built around it. It would be incredibly difficult for rogue to see play if it to be removed from standard because every spell is made with it in mind, which makes me to believe it will not be HoF'd, but mayve a nerf?
I Bought All The Funnel Cakes
Preparation is one of the worst card designs in card games history! It limits design so much, every spell Rogue gets ever has to cost 1 or 2 mana more just because prep exists
I really think we will soon see a nerf to Preparation so it reduces spells by only 2 mana.
Now that Innervate was rightfully nerfed Prep really sticks out as the strongest mana cheat.
I don't know much about that class and its meta, but thank you for giving us an insight.
I don't know if they tested this or not... But I hope T5 knows what they are doing from the beginning of the day on Hearthstone till now.
Did you even read my thread's main paragraph... It makes rogue a unique class not a busted one. Sure in current meta Rogue can be powerful, but without it, she would have hard to keep up.
I like elementals and totems.
I think that if Prep becomes a major issue the only possible way to deal with it is to nerf it by reducing the mana discount or giving it a 1 mana cost.
I don't think we are already at that point, also, the mana cost for the cards that are coming out for Rogue it's fine as standalone. If they costed less they would be completely broken.
Malygos and Alexstrasza need to be hall of famed, not Prep.
Or put Dirty Rat in the classic set.
Remember playing Control Shaman with Reincarnate shenanigans? No? It was fun, here's a refresher!
I'm curious, there's lots of reference to the limits of design space but what does that tangibly refer to?
I always saw Prep as a paradigm of the Rogue "glass cannon" identity. The advantage it gives you needs to be cashed in else you're at a card disadvantage later on? Early game at the cost of late game.
I'm not a rogue main, so if this isn't the actuality I'm happy to be corrected.
Golden Hero Collections thus far; -
Europe: Druid, Hunter, Paladin, Mage, Priest, Rogue, Shaman, Warlock, Warrior (9/9)
Americas: Druid, Mage, Paladin Shaman (4/9)
Everywhere else: Workin on it.. (0/9)
It's in reference to The new rogue spell that casts a death rattle twice (I think) that is overpriced (should arguably cost 3 mana since play dead costs 1 and the bundling mana increase) so you can't use the spell on a devilsaur egg on turn three and get 2 5/5s. The card should cost (3) but can't because prep.
I Bought All The Funnel Cakes
The design space limit thing means that Rogue spells cannot be too cheap if they have good synergy with other cards.
For instance, the new Necrium Vial is 2 Play Deads in one, but it costs 5 times more. Why? Because if it costed 3 Mana (a fair cost for the effect), you could do Devilsaur Egg + Preparation + Necrium Vial to put 2 5/5 on the board as early as turn 3. And that's obviously not desirable.
EDIT: Ninja'd by @BorgerKing.
Great minds think alike :)
I Bought All The Funnel Cakes
Prep has always been a bit of a tricky question.
I play rogue main at a relatively high level (usually between steering-wheel ranks 10 and 2). Because Rogue relies heavily on combo cards, having a "0" mana activator becomes nearly priceless. Prep gives an option besides Backstab [/card]to cheat some extra value out of generally very mediocre or overpriced Rogue Spells and still potentially get a combo off ([card]Sprint, WANTED!, Fan of Knives, Vanish).
I wouldn't look at it as a design restriction, but more as a theme for the class in general. If anyone should be able to cheat extra value out of cards for burst damage, it should be Rogue.
This allows for the designers to create cards which will not necessarily be useful in every Rogue deck, but become playable; while not often overpowered when considering the general metagame (Odd Rogue is one of the most consistent rogue archetypes, but does not generally use Preparation). Keep in mind after all that you only get 2 per game, so as a player you must know the optimal time to use your Preps.
TheGnegno makes and interesting point in suggesting cards like Malygos and Alexstrasza are what make prep feel more oppressive. I would add Gadgetzan Auctioneer and The Caverns Below to that list, but of course the quest will rotate out soon.
*Sigh* It may be time for me to admit that despite how much daddy loves him some Malygos, with the new expansion it may be time to legacy ol'Blue.
I agree with OP that Prep is the signature of Rogue playstyle, together with smart weapons.
No matter if Prep warps new spells, Prep must stay as it is, at least in one game mode.
Miracle style is more class-defining than eg. Deathrattle Rogue: if they want to change that, they should at least leave Wild unchanged.