DUnno, i still enjoy exodia paladin with Uther, it's great against decks that want to delay the game way too much, like Jade druid and snce i ahd opened beardo in gadgetzan i still get quite a lot of wins with it, marsh queen was going to be bad tho because it shuffled the rewar ditnto your deck making you rely in the luck of the draw to reap the benefits
It seems like every expansion has a legendary that everyone thinks is broken and OP, but turns out to be garbage. The Marsh Queen in Ungoro, Uther of the Ebon Blade in KotFT (keep that card in mind, I'll circle back to it). At first I was excited about Kingsbane, but the more I think about it, the more I'm worried this this might be that card for K&C.
In a vacuum, it's pretty mediocre. 1 mana for 1/3 weapon wouldn't see much play. It's when we start throwing in the weapon buffs that it gets better. But I'm worried that all the extra support it will require will eat up too much valuable deck space. At minimum, well need:
That's at least 1/3 of our deck dedicated to building what will essentially be a cheaper version of Grave Vengeance. That is a lot of deck space. Paladin has one card - one single deck slot - that gives them the same thing...and that card doesn't see play.
I know the arguments are that this is reusable, but that depends heavily on finding it reliably and I don't think Cavern Shinyfinder is going to be enough. Also, you have to find it already buffed. It won't do you a lot of good if you find it with no buffs.
I've also heard people say that all the poisons and other support can be used with your hero power weapon and still be good, but I don't think that's true. If you have to use a Deadly Poison on your basic dagger, that means you'll never get your Kingsbane up to 5 attack.
And finally, even if I'm wrong about everything else, it's still a third of our deck dedicated to a way to smash out face into things. Even, it everything works out perfectly, I don't think it will win us the game. Especially when you think about the new Leyline Manipulator OTK Mage. It also dedicates 1/3 of its deck to one thing...but that one thing is infinite damage...not a cheaper Grave Vengeance.
Oh and one final thing... I doubt that Quest Mage is gonna be playing Leyline Manipulator, pretty sure they'd just prefer to play more spells or cards that draw 'em cards to get to the actual cards that will get the quest online so... yah', I don't think that's something you should worry about.
You're thinking wrong because it's actually quest-less exodia mage. You just leyline 2 simalcrum'd apprentices and you can do the combo in one turn. That frees you up from the random card generation aspect (quest, tomes, etc) and you can just play more card draw, anti aggro, etc. Plus your mulligan is better without quest.
I think running just Kingsbane, 2 Deadly Poison, 2 Shinyfinders and a Leeching poison will be a justifiable package.
That's only 6 cards, a package you can fit into most rogue decks. You can commit harder with pirates and more weapon buffs if you choose.
This 6 card package works fine. Shinyfinders is a decent play on turn 2 or 3, or any turn really as it will always draw the weapon. Kingsbane is a great combo activater for Rogue and the weapon buff spells are great for Auctioneer, Sherazin and combo's.
I think most people want to be aggressive with this, but I'm thinking in terms of a tempo or control kind of deck, in which this is pretty good. Not to mention both Shinyfinders and the Kingbane will work with the Rogue Spellstone, so maybe even that will see play.
I agree with you in regards to specifically an aggressive Kingsbane deck, probably too inconsistent even with Shinyfinders, but a deck that pushes for Tempo or Control would find much more consistency.
This is all speculation, I can't wait to actually get my hands on this stuff, seems fun.
It may not shine in standard, but I think this card will make wild oil rogue tier 1. Right now with this deck you really need to plan out when you're going to go all in with the weapon buffs, when and what to use the weapon on. With Kingsbane, you no longer worry about this stuff, and the deck has enough card draw to be able to play it multiple times. Also, it has 3 durability which is insane.
It seems like every expansion has a legendary that everyone thinks is broken and OP, but turns out to be garbage. The Marsh Queen in Ungoro, Uther of the Ebon Blade in KotFT (keep that card in mind, I'll circle back to it). At first I was excited about Kingsbane, but the more I think about it, the more I'm worried this this might be that card for K&C.
In a vacuum, it's pretty mediocre. 1 mana for 1/3 weapon wouldn't see much play. It's when we start throwing in the weapon buffs that it gets better. But I'm worried that all the extra support it will require will eat up too much valuable deck space. At minimum, well need:
That's at least 1/3 of our deck dedicated to building what will essentially be a cheaper version of Grave Vengeance. That is a lot of deck space. Paladin has one card - one single deck slot - that gives them the same thing...and that card doesn't see play.
I know the arguments are that this is reusable, but that depends heavily on finding it reliably and I don't think Cavern Shinyfinder is going to be enough. Also, you have to find it already buffed. It won't do you a lot of good if you find it with no buffs.
I've also heard people say that all the poisons and other support can be used with your hero power weapon and still be good, but I don't think that's true. If you have to use a Deadly Poison on your basic dagger, that means you'll never get your Kingsbane up to 5 attack.
And finally, even if I'm wrong about everything else, it's still a third of our deck dedicated to a way to smash out face into things. Even, it everything works out perfectly, I don't think it will win us the game. Especially when you think about the new Leyline Manipulator OTK Mage. It also dedicates 1/3 of its deck to one thing...but that one thing is infinite damage...not a cheaper Grave Vengeance.
Well, I agree actually. Making your entire deck around this seems folly. If for no other reason than attacking once with your face a turn isn't a good way to actually kill someone. More over it's a ton of deck space to actually commit to this single weapon.
I will say this though, running this, two deadly's and cavern shinyfinder isn't so bad and is a decent little package to add for extra face damage or removal. Especially in a deck with high draw. I am going to try and fit it into my token rogue deck and try it out.
Though I will say, it could easily crash and burn, I don't actually have high hopes.
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
I'm using Deadly Poison + Leeching Poison + Doomerang on Obsidian Shard in ladder right now and even this combination is succesfull in current meta and I think it will be succesfull on Kingsbane either. Also keep in mind those weapon buffs are great combo activators.
You can replace 1x or 2x Plated Beetle with 1 of oozes (Gluttonous Ooze would be my replacement for armors) on first days of expansion since all want to use their weapons.
Or you can replace them even with different minions, I've just tried to build a themed deck and wanted to give them a chance in this.
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players. ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
If I understand correctly, the reason why no one uses Blade Flurry for lifesteal is because it doesn't actually work. If you apply leeching poison to your weapon then blade flurry you get no life back as the damage source is Blade Flurry, not your weapon.
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
If I understand correctly, the reason why no one uses Blade Flurry for lifesteal is because it doesn't actually work. If you apply leeching poison to your weapon then blade flurry you get no life back as the damage source is Blade Flurry, not your weapon.
well, it works with Doomerang I've tried it by myself. After your pointing I wanted to try Blade Flurry too. I have never tried it.
Also even it does not apply or apply lifesteal effect, it is worth using because of Kingsbane effect and deathrattle imo.
Edit: Oh well, after thinking by myself as "why could it be unusable with that?" I did find the answer. Doomerang doesn't destroy the weapon but Blade Flurry does. So ok, I think its reasonable to not put in the deck but still worth trying to use them together while rogue lack board clears. But it makes me to free 1 card spot on my deck which i can fill with another copy of SI:7 Agent or another copy of Fan of Knives. Thank you for reminder btw :)
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players. ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
If I understand correctly, the reason why no one uses Blade Flurry for lifesteal is because it doesn't actually work. If you apply leeching poison to your weapon then blade flurry you get no life back as the damage source is Blade Flurry, not your weapon.
well, it works with Doomerang I've tried it by myself. After your pointing I wanted to try Blade Flurry too. I have never tried it.
Also even it does not apply or apply lifesteal effect, it is worth using because of Kingsbane effect and deathrattle imo.
Blade Flurry destroys the weapon and applies the damage as a modifier to the spell (essentially it deals spell damage not weapon damage), it does not grant life gain with Leeching Poison, and will not board clear with Envenom Weapon, It will however deal additional damage from cards like Malygos
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
If I understand correctly, the reason why no one uses Blade Flurry for lifesteal is because it doesn't actually work. If you apply leeching poison to your weapon then blade flurry you get no life back as the damage source is Blade Flurry, not your weapon.
well, it works with Doomerang I've tried it by myself. After your pointing I wanted to try Blade Flurry too. I have never tried it.
Also even it does not apply or apply lifesteal effect, it is worth using because of Kingsbane effect and deathrattle imo.
Blade Flurry destroys the weapon and applies the damage as a modifier to the spell (essentially it deals spell damage not weapon damage), it does not grant life gain with Leeching Poison, and will not board clear with Envenom Weapon, It will however deal additional damage from cards like Malygos
Yup I figured it out, Thanks anyway. :)
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Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players. ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
If I understand correctly, the reason why no one uses Blade Flurry for lifesteal is because it doesn't actually work. If you apply leeching poison to your weapon then blade flurry you get no life back as the damage source is Blade Flurry, not your weapon.
well, it works with Doomerang I've tried it by myself. After your pointing I wanted to try Blade Flurry too. I have never tried it.
Also even it does not apply or apply lifesteal effect, it is worth using because of Kingsbane effect and deathrattle imo.
With Doomerang the weapon is doing the damage, not the spell, with Blade Flurry the spell is doing the damage not the weapon. The difference is in the wording. It's honestly pretty a pretty small difference. But changes how the card works pretty vastly. Which is a shame because Blade Flurry would actually be good if it worked with Envenom Weapon
I will say that the new Kingsbane may be decent enough to run Blade Flurry. It's worth a try. It's just difficult to run a 3 card board wipe set up, four if you include both Deadly Poison cards. Even though the blade comes back to your deck, you still have to draw the other Blade Flurry for the second clear. Rogue is pretty good at drawing cards though. But by the time you have fit in card draw and support cards for Kingsbane then you don't have much space for a solid win condition.
I think people are looking at this card in the wrong way (though this is only speculation); if Blade Flurry worked in conjunction with cards like Leeching Poison and Envenom Weapon then it would make more sense to run all of these buff cards, but it doesn't.
I believe the power of Kingsbane doesn't necessarily lie in the ability to buff it continuously, the real power comes from extended early game board control with that 3rd durability and 1 less mana cost than the Hero Power (this is incredibly underrated). In conjunction with cards like Cavern Shinyfinder you also have the ability to strategically thin your deck to smooth out draws in the later game. Kingsbane in my opinion is more like a rogue only Patches the Pirate... except you want it in your starting hand.
The fact that it shuffles back in your deck could theoretically be a bigger negative than a positive as you definitely do not want to draw it late game without buffs; but you don't exactly want to buff it because the largest incentive to buff it eg Blade Flurry doesn't even work with the buffs (which blows my mind).
I hope so, so I will be one of the few players, who plays Kingsbane. :D And I will play Rhok'delar too.
^This. I've played probably 50+ games of Quest Hunter since Deathstalker and Keleseth were released in Frozen Throne and have really enjoyed the deck and had plenty of success despite people claiming it's bad. I mean that one guy hit a high legend rank with it and it regularly pops up as a top deck on Hearthpwn. I was excited for Quest Rogue too and then the meta became bloated with it so I never ended up playing it. I would much rather see Kingsbane be a "flop" and then proceed to play my own decks based around it while everyone else ignores it. However, I don't think it'll be a flop.
For starters, a 1/3 for 1 mana weapon is amazing in an aggressive/pirate rogue. A play like T1 Kingsbane, T2 Deadly Poison + Dread Corsair (w/ Patches) gives you a huge early boost leading into a T3 Southsea Captain. People often don't realize how big of a difference one durability makes in a deck with weapon buffs. With daggers, you only got 2 opportunities to deal 3 damage with Deadly Poison. With this you get 3. You also often had to play both dagger and poison in the same turn as it was often used to trade, meaning 3 mana for a 3/2 or risking just paying 1 mana and only getting a 3/1. Kingsbane being cheaper allows this combo to be 1 mana cheaper or you can just use one durability before and still have a Fiery War Axe. The card combos easier with other cards and comes out way sooner than our previous 3 durability weapons.
If Kingsbane was just a 1 mana 1/3, I would honestly be tossing a copy of it into aggro pirate rogue. The fact of the matter is that it has an amazing deathrattle as well as a tutor you can use just for it. Think about how back-breaking pre-nerf Fiery Win Axe was against some early aggression decks. I feel like this will be similar. So forget the janky combos with it (although I will be running those as well!), this card will be strong just in a regular pirate/aggressive package.
I'm using Deadly Poison + Leeching Poison + Doomerang on Obsidian Shard in ladder right now and even this combination is succesfull in current meta and I think it will be succesfull on Kingsbane either. Also keep in mind those weapon buffs are great combo activators.
You can replace 1x or 2x Plated Beetle with 1 of oozes (Gluttonous Ooze would be my replacement for armors) on first days of expansion since all want to use their weapons.
Or you can replace them even with different minions, I've just tried to build a themed deck and wanted to give them a chance in this.
If I'm being honest, this looks a little too greedy to be consistent.
the real power comes from extended early game board control with that 3rd durability and 1 less mana cost than the Hero Power (this is incredibly underrated).
Exactly, I said in a different thread already that Kingsbane is basically a better version of the old Spirit Claws for shaman.
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
If I understand correctly, the reason why no one uses Blade Flurry for lifesteal is because it doesn't actually work. If you apply leeching poison to your weapon then blade flurry you get no life back as the damage source is Blade Flurry, not your weapon.
well, it works with Doomerang I've tried it by myself. After your pointing I wanted to try Blade Flurry too. I have never tried it.
Also even it does not apply or apply lifesteal effect, it is worth using because of Kingsbane effect and deathrattle imo.
With Doomerang the weapon is doing the damage, not the spell, with Blade Flurry the spell is doing the damage not the weapon. The difference is in the wording. It's honestly pretty a pretty small difference. But changes how the card works pretty vastly. Which is a shame because Blade Flurry would actually be good if it worked with Envenom Weapon
I will say that the new Kingsbane may be decent enough to run Blade Flurry. It's worth a try. It's just difficult to run a 3 card board wipe set up, four if you include both Deadly Poison cards. Even though the blade comes back to your deck, you still have to draw the other Blade Flurry for the second clear. Rogue is pretty good at drawing cards though. But by the time you have fit in card draw and support cards for Kingsbane then you don't have much space for a solid win condition.
At the moment you mentioned as "solid win condition", I could think that the Fal'dorei Strider's Nerubians can be the our damage source. It has worked on Beneath the Grounds days, for me at least. I want to give it a try. I dropped 1 copy of Blade Flurry and added Fan of Knives instead. If this combination will work, I'm so glad and proud but If it won't, I will say "at least I've tried". Because I'm a collector-type player and won't be sad for spending dusts to make this deck.
But still, thanks for advices and informations. every information/opinion about every card, doesn't matter it is meta-defining or meme are precious for me. It is just good for discussing and brainstorming because Someone can see which I can't see or what I couldn't figure it out.
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Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players. ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
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DUnno, i still enjoy exodia paladin with Uther, it's great against decks that want to delay the game way too much, like Jade druid and snce i ahd opened beardo in gadgetzan i still get quite a lot of wins with it, marsh queen was going to be bad tho because it shuffled the rewar ditnto your deck making you rely in the luck of the draw to reap the benefits
I think running just Kingsbane, 2 Deadly Poison, 2 Shinyfinders and a Leeching poison will be a justifiable package.
That's only 6 cards, a package you can fit into most rogue decks. You can commit harder with pirates and more weapon buffs if you choose.
This 6 card package works fine. Shinyfinders is a decent play on turn 2 or 3, or any turn really as it will always draw the weapon. Kingsbane is a great combo activater for Rogue and the weapon buff spells are great for Auctioneer, Sherazin and combo's.
I think most people want to be aggressive with this, but I'm thinking in terms of a tempo or control kind of deck, in which this is pretty good. Not to mention both Shinyfinders and the Kingbane will work with the Rogue Spellstone, so maybe even that will see play.
I agree with you in regards to specifically an aggressive Kingsbane deck, probably too inconsistent even with Shinyfinders, but a deck that pushes for Tempo or Control would find much more consistency.
This is all speculation, I can't wait to actually get my hands on this stuff, seems fun.
It may not shine in standard, but I think this card will make wild oil rogue tier 1. Right now with this deck you really need to plan out when you're going to go all in with the weapon buffs, when and what to use the weapon on. With Kingsbane, you no longer worry about this stuff, and the deck has enough card draw to be able to play it multiple times. Also, it has 3 durability which is insane.
While I'm worrying almost same things with you I am tried to build a deck around new expansion and will try it after release but still worrying about the next meta we will face will consume Kingsbane in it since Rogue is one of my favorite classes.
Why I don't understand about people is why all are refusing to use Kingsbane with Preparation + Blade Flurry like Bloodmage Thalnos + Preparation + Fan of Knives
it offers even a huge lifesteal with buffs minus the card draw(well forget those, I've just skipped an old information :) ) and why they keep trying to build a deck with 2x Leeching Poison + 2x Envenom Weapon while they only need 1 copy.I'm using Deadly Poison + Leeching Poison + Doomerang on Obsidian Shard in ladder right now and even this combination is succesfull in current meta and I think it will be succesfull on Kingsbane either. Also keep in mind those weapon buffs are great combo activators.
Here is the my list by the way;
You can replace 1x or 2x Plated Beetle with 1 of oozes (Gluttonous Ooze would be my replacement for armors) on first days of expansion since all want to use their weapons.
Or you can replace them even with different minions, I've just tried to build a themed deck and wanted to give them a chance in this.
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players.
ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
After your pointing I wanted to try Blade Flurry too. I have never tried it.Also even it does not apply
or applylifesteal effect, it is worth using because of Kingsbane effect and deathrattle imo.Edit: Oh well, after thinking by myself as "why could it be unusable with that?" I did find the answer. Doomerang doesn't destroy the weapon but Blade Flurry does. So ok, I think its reasonable to not put in the deck but still worth trying to use them together while rogue lack board clears. But it makes me to free 1 card spot on my deck which i can fill with another copy of SI:7 Agent or another copy of Fan of Knives. Thank you for reminder btw :)
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players.
ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
Edit: Spacing
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players.
ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!
It's not going to need all of those cards to see play in Miracle. Deadly Poison x2 and possibly the 3/1 minion as a decent turn 2 play.
Think you'll probably be wrecked by aggro and tempo lists.
agreed
Way too slow
I think people are looking at this card in the wrong way (though this is only speculation); if Blade Flurry worked in conjunction with cards like Leeching Poison and Envenom Weapon then it would make more sense to run all of these buff cards, but it doesn't.
I believe the power of Kingsbane doesn't necessarily lie in the ability to buff it continuously, the real power comes from extended early game board control with that 3rd durability and 1 less mana cost than the Hero Power (this is incredibly underrated). In conjunction with cards like Cavern Shinyfinder you also have the ability to strategically thin your deck to smooth out draws in the later game. Kingsbane in my opinion is more like a rogue only Patches the Pirate... except you want it in your starting hand.
The fact that it shuffles back in your deck could theoretically be a bigger negative than a positive as you definitely do not want to draw it late game without buffs; but you don't exactly want to buff it because the largest incentive to buff it eg Blade Flurry doesn't even work with the buffs (which blows my mind).
...Its power does not come from the fact that it's a 1 mana 1/3, like Spirit Claws.
The power of Kingsbane comes from Deadly Poison specifically. Which means the deck has this odd inherent weakness to Skulking Geist.
But still, thanks for advices and informations. every information/opinion about every card, doesn't matter it is meta-defining or meme are precious for me. It is just good for discussing and brainstorming because Someone can see which I can't see or what I couldn't figure it out.
Memedeck-seeker. Always tries to build new decks. Hates tournements, streamers, netdecks and poor-o players.
ah, but a tournement mode could be great !!!