So I've been trying to make a good jade rogue for awhile, and its decent, but nowhere near the level of druid or shaman. Rogue got by far the worst jade cards that were released, whereas shaman arguably got the best.
Jade Shuriken has to be combo to get the effect, and 2 damage for 2 mana is pretty weak when cards like Frostbolt and Quick Shot exist. Yes, it summons a jade, but that shouldn't have a combo requirement when Jade Lightning for 2 more mana does 2 more damage and guarantees a golem.
Rogue doesn't have a 3rd jade card because I guess the development team was lazy, while druid and shaman both have taunt cards, with Jade Chieftain being the better of the 2 in most situations.
What makes shaman such an oppressive class at the moment is that it has a very good opening in trogg, totem golem and jade claws. It has efficient removal in lightning bolt, jade lightning, hex and even flametongue totem. They have good early game AoE that has no real drawback unlike excavated evil, and hellfire which both cost more than lightning storm. They have taunt in Feral Spirit, Thing from Below which is a completely different level of op, and now Jade Chieftain. They have healing in Jinyu Waterspeaker and burst in Bloodlust for surprise lethal.
If Rogue had some of these tools, would the class be too strong? Would it finally give rogue a deck besides Miracle above tier 3?
TLDR: How much better would jade rogue be if they had a jade taunt card?
Those Blizz guys would probably say "oh, but taunt doesn't fit the rogue archetype !". And it kinda doesn't, but designing the third jade card for rogue was really lousy, i can't believe they actually skipped it. Maybe they thought rogue could abuse it and just vomit out the jades with gang ups, shadowsteps and similar stuff. But then again, they DID print jade idol.
TLDR: it would probably be a bit better, but not groundbreaking better.
I don't get why folks are saying that the development team got lazy when they gave Rogue only 2 Jade Golem cards. Out of any of the decks, Rogue got the most stopping power out of their Golems due to them being attached to deathrattles.
This means also that you are looking at cards like Unearthed Raptor and Journey Below. I think they kinda underestimated the power of the other two classes and thus' COULD HAVE made a third Jade card but it is nowhere anything 'lazy' when they still have access to duplicating their other effects.
But yes. Any class that recieves additional cards would be stronger yes. But that's also ultimately a pointless comparison since an 'if' statement before anything makes really anything stronger or weaker. Could Rogue have done with a Jade Taunt-card? Sure. But what would it have been that wouldn't have made it utterly broken when Rogue has the power to essentially duplicate any deathrattle effect for 1 mana? To be entirely honest I still think Jade-Rogue has the potential to be the strongest out of any of the Jade-decks simply due to how you deal with jade cards namely repeatedly clearing the board.
So... a lot better but wouldn't make any sense in regards to how the class works mechanically? If you want to test out how good or bad a Rogue Jade deck would be, try running one with Defender of Argus or Sunfury Protector and you can make a rough estimated guess.
I have tried, but it is incredibly draw dependent requiring combo activator. The deck also runs into serious draw problems in order to build jade army and quickly enters top deck mode while being very susceptible to AoE. In most cases, picking jade swarmer from journey below is wrong whereas Aya is always right. If you aren't running loot hoarders and novice engineers (which are bad in 80% of your matches) you will almost always lose.
I too thought Rogue would have the ability to be the best originally, but after messing with it for a few hundred games, I'm convinced that while being fun, the deck isn't really all that competitive with its current tools.
Have you tried a build that includes Sergeant Sally? I've been experimenting with a build that I think is very fun and I believe that Sally and the cards built around her give Jade Rogue a much different feel. Here's the list i was working with today. I'm steadily climbing towards 10 with it.
Nah, of course they don't need a third Jade card, they have Shadowstep and Gadgetzan Ferryman! Who needs consistency when you can have gimmicks?
But seriously, after a long time I think I finally get why the devs are so careful when designing cards for Rogue. They've literally printed a single playable card for the class in the last four expansions (Tomb Pillager, Shadow Strike, Swashburglar and Counterfeit Coin) and look how powerful it is right now.
Yeah, it's very draw-dependent (as it's always been, and as is the case with other classes in the current meta) and sometimes you just draw a bunch of spell and lose because you've nothing to play, but it's kinda scary to imagine how a consistent Rogue deck with lots of good new class cards would play. It'd be the next Shaman for sure.
Not that this is an excuse to just make shitty cards and force us to play the same archetype we were playing when the game launched. I'm just rambling about how this issue might be more complicated than it seems.
Have you tried a build that includes Sergeant Sally? I've been experimenting with a build that I think is very fun and I believe that Sally and the cards built around her give Jade Rogue a much different feel. Here's the list i was working with today. I'm steadily climbing towards 10 with it.
I've thought about her but then you are still relying on a combo with cold blood so 2 cards out of 30 which isn't great odds unless you mulligan for it when you likely have better stuff to be looking for. I think she has much more potential in a buffadin than rogue. Rogue just has too much gimmicky crap when other classes have consistency.
Nah, of course they don't need a third Jade card, they have Shadowstep and Gadgetzan Ferryman! Who needs consistency when you can have gimmicks?
But seriously, after a long time I think I finally get why the devs are so careful when designing cards for Rogue. They've literally printed a single playable card for the class in the last four expansions (Tomb Pillager, Shadow Strike, Swashburglar and Counterfeit Coin) and look how powerful it is right now.
Yeah, it's very draw-dependent (as it's always been, and as is the case with other classes in the current meta) and sometimes you just draw a bunch of spell and lose because you've nothing to play, but it's kinda scary to imagine how a consistent Rogue deck with lots of good new class cards would play. It'd be the next Shaman for sure.
Not that this is an excuse to just make shitty cards and force us to play the same archetype we were playing when the game launched. I'm just rambling about how this issue might be more complicated than it seems.
Yes, Rogue could have the potential to become very strong but since when has blizzard really cared about balance? They nerf one or two cards every few months and tell everyone playing to fuck off while they keep printing op as fuck shaman cards and didnt address pirate warrior in the latest nerfs while you still have any goons deck being trash in standard format. I think combo is a cool mechanic, but cards like Jade Shuriken and Perdition's Blade shouldn't be trash without it. Undercity Valiant was a well designed card even though it doesn't see play. It has vanilla stats for a 2 drop while if you manage to pull of the combo you get a ping for rewarding you. same deal with Bladed Cultist a 1 mana 1/2 isn't terrible, its not good by any means, but if you can get it out with something else you have a solid minion.
Have you tried a build that includes Sergeant Sally? I've been experimenting with a build that I think is very fun and I believe that Sally and the cards built around her give Jade Rogue a much different feel. Here's the list i was working with today. I'm steadily climbing towards 10 with it.
I've thought about her but then you are still relying on a combo with cold blood so 2 cards out of 30 which isn't great odds unless you mulligan for it when you likely have better stuff to be looking for. I think she has much more potential in a buffadin than rogue. Rogue just has too much gimmicky crap when other classes have consistency.
Sally actually combo's with a lot of cards in the deck I posted. The better combo thanCold Blood IMO is actuallyUnearthed Raptor.
A 3-4 with a 3 mana board clear is INSANE value against aggressive decks. And Sally on her own against aggressive decks is a very effective "taunt" that deals 1 damage to all enemy minions and 2 to the one that attacks it. If it isn't dealt with immediately after you play it, it becomes the best possible target for theabusive sergeants orUnearthed Raptor.
Have you tried a build that includes Sergeant Sally? I've been experimenting with a build that I think is very fun and I believe that Sally and the cards built around her give Jade Rogue a much different feel. Here's the list i was working with today. I'm steadily climbing towards 10 with it.
I've thought about her but then you are still relying on a combo with cold blood so 2 cards out of 30 which isn't great odds unless you mulligan for it when you likely have better stuff to be looking for. I think she has much more potential in a buffadin than rogue. Rogue just has too much gimmicky crap when other classes have consistency.
Sally actually combo's with a lot of cards in the deck I posted. The better combo thanCold Blood IMO is actuallyUnearthed Raptor.
A 3-4 with a 3 mana board clear is INSANE value against aggressive decks. And Sally on her own against aggressive decks is a very effective "taunt" that deals 1 damage to all enemy minions and 2 to the one that attacks it. If it isn't dealt with immediately after you play it, it becomes the best possible target for theabusive sergeants orUnearthed Raptor.
sadly that means you have to either have sally on board where they don't trade into it for the 1 aoe damage or hold her for a combo with raptor and at 6 mana 2 cards, you likely are very far behind decks like pirate warrior who will have you on 0-8 hp depending on if you have thalnos + prep + FoK combo already or backstab + si:7 agent
warlock can pull this off better with sally + power overwhelming for a 4 mana 5 AoE damage than takes effect the turn you play it.
Have you tried a build that includes Sergeant Sally? I've been experimenting with a build that I think is very fun and I believe that Sally and the cards built around her give Jade Rogue a much different feel. Here's the list i was working with today. I'm steadily climbing towards 10 with it.
sadly that means you have to either have sally on board where they don't trade into it for the 1 aoe damage or hold her for a combo with raptor and at 6 mana 2 cards, you likely are very far behind decks like pirate warrior who will have you on 0-8 hp depending on if you have thalnos + prep + FoK combo already or backstab + si:7 agent
warlock can pull this off better with sally + power overwhelming for a 4 mana 5 AoE damage than takes effect the turn you play it.
I would agree, that there are better combo's for Sergeant Sally. However, as you stated earlier, the jade cards for Shaman and Druid are very Tempo oriented. Rogue does have the slowest Jade cards of the group. Jade swarmer, as a 2 drop, is a big loss of tempo because when played on curve it provides only 1 attack. BUTTTT, the reason you and I have been drawn to Jade Rogue is the fact that using the deathrattle synergies, it has the most powerful jade combo that you can have (outside of late game druid with Gadgetzan Auctioneer).
The problem is that midrange decks AND aggressive decks have the power to crush jade rogue because they have so much more tempo than rogue does, and when Rogue falls behind hard on the board, it is almost impossible to catch up because Rogue doesn't have an effective class board clear, and so traditionally it loses to both Aggressive decks AND other Jade decks.
Sally's place in my deck, (which is not perfect yet BTW, I just started messing with the idea after I initially read your post), serves to give it a powerful board clear that can clear out an opponent board in the early-mid game.
Abusive Sergeant's are very effective in helping the deck to trade effectively in the early game to keep from falling behind TOO much.
The abundance of draw cards give the deck the ability to gather both the board clear combinations with Sally, and the powerful Jade Combinations that made Jade Rogue so much fun early on in MsOG's release.
My build is far from perfect, and I can understand your reluctance to believe in a jade build following your attempts to make it work, but I'd really appreciate your help in polishing this deck because I too have spent a lot of time trying to make Jade Rogue work and this deck is the first ray of light i've seen in a long time for a competitive Jade Rogue.
I don't get why folks are saying that the development team got lazy when they gave Rogue only 2 Jade Golem cards. Out of any of the decks, Rogue got the most stopping power out of their Golems due to them being attached to deathrattles.
This means also that you are looking at cards like Unearthed Raptor and Journey Below. I think they kinda underestimated the power of the other two classes and thus' COULD HAVE made a third Jade card but it is nowhere anything 'lazy' when they still have access to duplicating their other effects.
But yes. Any class that recieves additional cards would be stronger yes. But that's also ultimately a pointless comparison since an 'if' statement before anything makes really anything stronger or weaker. Could Rogue have done with a Jade Taunt-card? Sure. But what would it have been that wouldn't have made it utterly broken when Rogue has the power to essentially duplicate any deathrattle effect for 1 mana? To be entirely honest I still think Jade-Rogue has the potential to be the strongest out of any of the Jade-decks simply due to how you deal with jade cards namely repeatedly clearing the board.
So... a lot better but wouldn't make any sense in regards to how the class works mechanically? If you want to test out how good or bad a Rogue Jade deck would be, try running one with Defender of Argus or Sunfury Protector and you can make a rough estimated guess.
the problem with emchanics like Jade is that you can't design them with other expansions in mind, particularly in the decembrine expansion since the it will rotate one year earlier than any expansion that come sout after it, raptor will actually rotate out in april, and even if they released a Jade rogue card in Ungoro then the 2018 rotation would be that every Jade thing excepting for Jade ungoro would rotate out leaving two archetype cards outside of their blocks, not designing the third Jade card for rogue was actually really lazy.
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So I've been trying to make a good jade rogue for awhile, and its decent, but nowhere near the level of druid or shaman. Rogue got by far the worst jade cards that were released, whereas shaman arguably got the best.
Jade Swarmer is very slow for a 2 drop, should have been a 1 drop like Possessed Villager though that could have been a little op, where as shaman and druid got tempo cards in Jade Claws and Jade Blossom.
Jade Shuriken has to be combo to get the effect, and 2 damage for 2 mana is pretty weak when cards like Frostbolt and Quick Shot exist. Yes, it summons a jade, but that shouldn't have a combo requirement when Jade Lightning for 2 more mana does 2 more damage and guarantees a golem.
Rogue doesn't have a 3rd jade card because I guess the development team was lazy, while druid and shaman both have taunt cards, with Jade Chieftain being the better of the 2 in most situations.
What makes shaman such an oppressive class at the moment is that it has a very good opening in trogg, totem golem and jade claws. It has efficient removal in lightning bolt, jade lightning, hex and even flametongue totem. They have good early game AoE that has no real drawback unlike excavated evil, and hellfire which both cost more than lightning storm. They have taunt in Feral Spirit, Thing from Below which is a completely different level of op, and now Jade Chieftain. They have healing in Jinyu Waterspeaker and burst in Bloodlust for surprise lethal.
If Rogue had some of these tools, would the class be too strong? Would it finally give rogue a deck besides Miracle above tier 3?
TLDR: How much better would jade rogue be if they had a jade taunt card?
Those Blizz guys would probably say "oh, but taunt doesn't fit the rogue archetype !". And it kinda doesn't, but designing the third jade card for rogue was really lousy, i can't believe they actually skipped it. Maybe they thought rogue could abuse it and just vomit out the jades with gang ups, shadowsteps and similar stuff. But then again, they DID print jade idol.
TLDR: it would probably be a bit better, but not groundbreaking better.
Have you tried a build that includes Sergeant Sally? I've been experimenting with a build that I think is very fun and I believe that Sally and the cards built around her give Jade Rogue a much different feel. Here's the list i was working with today. I'm steadily climbing towards 10 with it.
Nah, of course they don't need a third Jade card, they have Shadowstep and Gadgetzan Ferryman! Who needs consistency when you can have gimmicks?
But seriously, after a long time I think I finally get why the devs are so careful when designing cards for Rogue. They've literally printed a single playable card for the class in the last four expansions (Tomb Pillager, Shadow Strike, Swashburglar and Counterfeit Coin) and look how powerful it is right now.
Yeah, it's very draw-dependent (as it's always been, and as is the case with other classes in the current meta) and sometimes you just draw a bunch of spell and lose because you've nothing to play, but it's kinda scary to imagine how a consistent Rogue deck with lots of good new class cards would play. It'd be the next Shaman for sure.
Not that this is an excuse to just make shitty cards and force us to play the same archetype we were playing when the game launched. I'm just rambling about how this issue might be more complicated than it seems.