Rogue is just not good in this meta right now, which can change with new expansions. They have a lot of different decks that could become very strong, namely Aggro, Tempo, Miracle, Burgle, C'thun and Mill-rogue, so it's just a case of an unfavorable meta as oppose to all cards sucking like Priest.
Yeah, this is basically it.
Miracle rogue is a BEAST of a deck against the field when the field is evenly spread. It's just horrible against shaman and shaman makes up 30+ percent of the ladder as you approach 5+.
A deck with enough damage to kill C'thun warrior with good curve and enough tempo to take down mid-range hunters is no slouch. It's just that its glaring weakness is basically what the entire meta of HS is based on at the moment.
It's not just rogue that hurts either, so many cool archetypes and decks are horrible on ladder at the moment.
I'd rather have another Miracle or Patron era than the aggro-fest we have had with Face Hunter, Secret Paladin and Aggro Shaman. And I don't know what you are smoking, but the meta has rarely been as toxic as it is now. Even Control Warrior is out now. Where are the control decks ? ...
And I want to hear the argument "Combo decks are not interactive". Now watch Kripp's video and tell me how Aggro Shaman is interactive.
First of all, I'll form my own opinion about the meta, thanks. I don't need to be browbeat with yours, or force-fed the opinions of some self-important "twitch-pro". To be fair, I respect Kripparian, but I don't like how often and how quick he hops on the misery train, purely for the edification of his viewers. If you want to be spoon-fed your opinion by someone else, please don't run around smacking everyone else with it while you are busy flailing about.
I remember post beta when you couldn't seriously play ladder without playing either A:) Miracle Rogue or B:) Face Hunter. You could goof around with other decks, but is you wanted to rank "seriously" That was it. Two decks. Period.
We're not talking about about a narrow meta either. It just took time foe people to figure out that all the creativity in the world couldn't save you from how fast each of those decks were. as time went on, people got louder, whinier, angrier, because they got bored of only playing the same matches. Over, and Over, and Over. Shaman may be bad, but it is nowhere near as bad as those 2 decks were. It simply hasn't taken as long for people to realize what the "better" decks are.
Meanwhile, there are MORE viable decks in the current meta than there were in that one. The best decks are the best decks for a reason, but there ARE decks that stand a chance vs the best decks, if you can wipe the salt from your eyes long enough to find them. The meta isn't more toxic because of the decks --- the meta sucks right now because there are more players in the game than before, which means the complain train just runs faster than it used to.
Combo decks got nerfed to being fair, which is a good thing. "Control" decks eventually got (and figured out) how good Zombie Chow, Deathlord, and Loatheb were. Things improved and people still complained. The complain train just wails on ... CHOO CHOO!
The fallacy of your argument is that you acknowledge there will always be a meta with a "best deck." but since its not currently a deck you want to play, you're just going to complain about it.
Do everyone a favor. Get of the complain train, and just play the ******* game.
Like.. Seriously. Look at the cards in Miracle Rogue. 10 of them are basic! 17 are from the classic set! Just 3, x2 pillagers and x1 shadow strike are usable cards that haven't been around since release. Like seriously, every other class has had it's time to shine after release, except for Priest (but it was pretty good at one point. Look at Priest, even it has multiple archetypes and it gets good cards. Rogue? Haha, no. We can't give any playable cards to rogue! We screwed up the Stealth mechanic and it's not fun, so let's just screw over Rogue! No more cards for Rogue! Because that's pretty much going on in Ben Brode's head.
You're right! Ben Brode designs every card! He specifically said I hate rogue. So he doesn't design any more!
we have NEVER seen Blizzard nerf ANY aggro deck, while combo ones got all erased from the game.
This is not true.
Gnome nerfed and become 1/1, Knife become a 2/2, undertaker and buzzard are all nerfs for aggro decks, and not irrelevant nerfs...
Leper Gnome, Knife Juggler are common and general cards. The nerfs DID nerfed aggro (but not only) but no AGGRO DECK got precisely nerfed. And Starving Buzzard was far from being an aggro card, it was the combo with Unleash the Hounds that got out of control. It would actually be a good draw engine for a control hunter even today, but guess what, aggro decks are always stronger.
When Miracle was prevalent = got nerfed. When Miracle was not prevalent but Blizzard was affraid of spare parts (rofl) = got nerfed (while releasing Dr. Boom, Mechwarper, etc ...). When Patron was prevalent = got nerfed (and Mysterious Challenger got released). When Handlock was not prevalent = got nerfed anyway (and we give Shaman a 7/7 for 4).
Then, we had Face Hunter, Mech Mage, Secret Paladin, Eboladin and Aggro Shaman all being prevalent for several months = no nerfs.
I'd rather have another Miracle or Patron era than the aggro-fest we have had with Face Hunter, Secret Paladin and Aggro Shaman. And I don't know what you are smoking, but the meta has rarely been as toxic as it is now. Even Control Warrior is out now. Where are the control decks ? ...
And I want to hear the argument "Combo decks are not interactive". Now watch Kripp's video and tell me how Aggro Shaman is interactive.
First of all, I'll form my own opinion about the meta, thanks. I don't need to be browbeat with yours, or force-fed the opinions of some self-important "twitch-pro". To be fair, I respect Kripparian, but I don't like how often and how quick he hops on the misery train, purely for the edification of his viewers. If you want to be spoon-fed your opinion by someone else, please don't run around smacking everyone else with it while you are busy flailing about.
I remember post beta when you couldn't seriously play ladder without playing either A:) Miracle Rogue or B:) Face Hunter. You could goof around with other decks, but is you wanted to rank "seriously" That was it. Two decks. Period.
We're not talking about about a narrow meta either. It just took time foe people to figure out that all the creativity in the world couldn't save you from how fast each of those decks were. as time went on, people got louder, whinier, angrier, because they got bored of only playing the same matches. Over, and Over, and Over. Shaman may be bad, but it is nowhere near as bad as those 2 decks were. It simply hasn't taken as long for people to realize what the "better" decks are.
Meanwhile, there are MORE viable decks in the current meta than there were in that one. The best decks are the best decks for a reason, but there ARE decks that stand a chance vs the best decks, if you can wipe the salt from your eyes long enough to find them. The meta isn't more toxic because of the decks --- the meta sucks right now because there are more players in the game than before, which means the complain train just runs faster than it used to.
Combo decks got nerfed to being fair, which is a good thing. "Control" decks eventually got (and figured out) how good Zombie Chow, Deathlord, and Loatheb were. Things improved and people still complained. The complain train just wails on ... CHOO CHOO!
The fallacy of your argument is that you acknowledge there will always be a meta with a "best deck." but since its not currently a deck you want to play, you're just going to complain about it.
Do everyone a favor. Get of the complain train, and just play the ******* game.
You're so out of place, you don't even deserve the time I spent typing this.
You're such out of place, you don't even deserve the time I spent typing this.
Yet, here you are, still looking for something to complain about, while offering nothing of constructive or critical value.
Thank you for perfectly objectifying and exemplifying my point.
You're just being ridiculous replying to arguments I didn't made. I don't see the point of discussing with someone that does not even understand basic sentences.
You're just being ridiculous replying to arguments I didn't made. I don't see the point of discussing with someone that does not even understand basic sentences.
I never said anything about your arguments (or lack thereof), only that you were perfectly demonstrating mine.
Maybe you simply don't understand some of the big words I'm using. As soon as you get done wasting time by typing a reply about how I'm not worth wasting your time on, you should try to look them up on teh interwebs (Dictionary).
I do think the main idea is: Rogue isn't very good in the current meta due to not being able to board clear as well as they used to. [Vanish is a reset not a clear and blade flurry could see better days. I think it was over-nerfed. 4 mana and your weapon for weapon damage to all enemy minions? I think it'd still be viable at 3 mana since they took away the ability for it to do face damage (which was what made in overpowered imo (that and that spell damage affected the dmg it did). ]
That being said, it is still a fun class to play; however, if you're wanting a mysterious challenger level of card, I dunno that you'll see anything like that until some of the LOE aggro shaman cards leave. (tunnel trogg). You may be waiting a while for the fun of rogue to come back.
Because Rogue is one of the trickiest classes to balance for. Its not that they aren't trying -- it is because Heartstone is, by design, a game about tempo... and Rogue is THE POSTER CHILD of tempo swings. The best example is the Miracle Rogue deck. Whether its (mostly creatureless) Gagetzan builds, Malygos, or even Tinker Oil, Rogue has consistently put together a list that can stall the early game (1-4) and then dig/craft a OTK to close in the midgame (5-8).
They have consistently pushed OTK decks to the late-midgame (hence Emperor Thaurissan) to create clearly Identified windows of power for different styles of deck (aggro-early, combo-mid, Control-late). But because Rogue is mechanically inclined to directly influencing the tempo of the game, they have to treat the whole class with kid gloves - or risk another iteration of Rogue-Combo outstripping the meta.
To demonstrate this idea in another context, look at Magic the Gathering. From a design standpoint (not flavor) Rogue is like BLUE. It is deceptively weak at first blush. However, because BLUE tends to interact/interfere with the RULES OF THE GAME more than any other class you have to be very careful about how you balance it. When you screw up, blue just takes over everything -- so the natural inclination is to be very cautious with the amount of raw power you put in that color.
Because Rogue is one of the trickiest classes to balance for. Its not that they aren't trying -- it is because Heartstone is, by design, a game about tempo... and Rogue is THE POSTER CHILD of tempo swings. The best example is the Miracle Rogue deck. Whether its (mostly creatureless) Gagetzan builds, Malygos, or even Tinker Oil, Rogue has consistently put together a list that can stall the early game (1-4) and then dig/craft a OTK to close in the midgame (5-8).
They have consistently pushed OTK decks to the late-midgame (hence Emperor Thaurissan) to create clearly Identified windows of power for different styles of deck (aggro-early, combo-mid, Control-late). But because Rogue is mechanically inclined to directly influencing the tempo of the game, they have to treat the whole class with kid gloves - or risk another iteration of Rogue-Combo outstripping the meta.
To demonstrate this idea in another context, look at Magic the Gathering. From a design standpoint (not flavor) Rogue is like BLUE. It is deceptively weak at first blush. However, because BLUE tends to interact/interfere with the RULES OF THE GAME more than any other class you have to be very careful about how you balance it. When you screw up, blue just takes over everything -- so the natural inclination is to be very cautious with the amount of raw power you put in that color.
CMON THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT NO BALANCES LOOK AT THE AGGRO-MID RANGE DECKS
CMON THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT NO BALANCES LOOK AT THE AGGRO-MID RANGE DECKS
Heartstone is designed to be a "midrange" game. Hence, midrange will always be the bread and butter of the cards.
Yes there are balance adjustments that can be made. However, they need to get a handle on the meta the same as us. They aren't omniscient, they watch us to see how the meta evolves, and plan carefully for corrections. Knee jerk reactions CREATE problem decks and cards (or destroy the play-ability of classes) more often than they fix them.
I'd rather take the slow and subtle fix that doesn't replace one "God Tier" with another.
1) Many players arnt asking rogue to get OP cards, but rogue has some insane weakness in comparison to other classes. Players are asking for these weakness to be "equal" to other classes weakness
2) Our Hero Power is POINTLESS if we use a Weapon card, NO other class has this problem, we have so many cards to boost/give us a weapon, as soon as we use one of these cards we can no longer use our hero power. 2a) B.c we have weapons and boost to them and NOT alot of board clears, we will need to use our weapon to clear the board, with 0 Armor and healing this makes it deadly for us.
3) Burgle cards are good, but not good enough for the RNG,many times you get dead cards and just waste them for combo for other rogue cards. The new cards from other classes are by far better, a 4/4 that Gives you a card AND heals you? I mean just actually compare rogue vs other class cards. Deadly Fork is a worthless card, you have to play the minion, let it die and THEN cast the weapon. That is 3 Man for a 3/2 but you must have the minion die, the only reason it is consider good is that you dont need to put the weapon in your deck so in a way you have 32 cards and not 30, tho Warrior has these same style cards and Upgrade to make them better.
The best example is the Miracle Rogue deck. Whether its (mostly creatureless) Gagetzan builds, Malygos, or even Tinker Oil, Rogue has consistently put together a list that can stall the early game (1-4) and then dig/craft a OTK to close in the midgame (5-8).
Miracle Rogue isn't OTK. The "best examples" would be Anyfin Paladin, Freeze Mage, etc.
... Rogue is THE POSTER CHILD of tempo swings. The best example is the Miracle Rogue deck. Whether its (mostly creatureless) Gagetzan builds, Malygos, or even Tinker Oil, Rogue has consistently put together a list that can stall the early game (1-4) and then dig/craft a OTK to close in the midgame (5-8)...
First of all, context added to my previous quote in bold... Excerpted from the exact same post. Secondly, Im not sure what purpose there is in necro-ing a dead thread in order to start a semantics debate between crafting a 2-turn kill vs a pure OTK (which Rogue can still do BTW).
That aside... the fact remains, Rogue as a class has more cards/mechanics built into playing this style of deck than any other class.
When Miracle was not prevalent but Blizzard was affraid of spare parts (rofl) = got nerfed (while releasing Dr. Boom, Mechwarper, etc ...).
When Patron was prevalent = got nerfed (and Mysterious Challenger got released).
When Handlock was not prevalent = got nerfed anyway (and we give Shaman a 7/7 for 4).
I do think the main idea is: Rogue isn't very good in the current meta due to not being able to board clear as well as they used to. [Vanish is a reset not a clear and blade flurry could see better days. I think it was over-nerfed. 4 mana and your weapon for weapon damage to all enemy minions? I think it'd still be viable at 3 mana since they took away the ability for it to do face damage (which was what made in overpowered imo (that and that spell damage affected the dmg it did). ]
That being said, it is still a fun class to play; however, if you're wanting a mysterious challenger level of card, I dunno that you'll see anything like that until some of the LOE aggro shaman cards leave. (tunnel trogg). You may be waiting a while for the fun of rogue to come back.
Because Rogue is one of the trickiest classes to balance for. Its not that they aren't trying -- it is because Heartstone is, by design, a game about tempo... and Rogue is THE POSTER CHILD of tempo swings. The best example is the Miracle Rogue deck. Whether its (mostly creatureless) Gagetzan builds, Malygos, or even Tinker Oil, Rogue has consistently put together a list that can stall the early game (1-4) and then dig/craft a OTK to close in the midgame (5-8).
They have consistently pushed OTK decks to the late-midgame (hence Emperor Thaurissan) to create clearly Identified windows of power for different styles of deck (aggro-early, combo-mid, Control-late). But because Rogue is mechanically inclined to directly influencing the tempo of the game, they have to treat the whole class with kid gloves - or risk another iteration of Rogue-Combo outstripping the meta.
To demonstrate this idea in another context, look at Magic the Gathering. From a design standpoint (not flavor) Rogue is like BLUE. It is deceptively weak at first blush. However, because BLUE tends to interact/interfere with the RULES OF THE GAME more than any other class you have to be very careful about how you balance it. When you screw up, blue just takes over everything -- so the natural inclination is to be very cautious with the amount of raw power you put in that color.
Blizzard: Hey guys we will nerf Blade Flurry so you can have better weapons! *Proceeds to implement Deadly Fork.
Just a couple things
1) Many players arnt asking rogue to get OP cards, but rogue has some insane weakness in comparison to other classes. Players are asking for these weakness to be "equal" to other classes weakness
2) Our Hero Power is POINTLESS if we use a Weapon card, NO other class has this problem, we have so many cards to boost/give us a weapon, as soon as we use one of these cards we can no longer use our hero power.
2a) B.c we have weapons and boost to them and NOT alot of board clears, we will need to use our weapon to clear the board, with 0 Armor and healing this makes it deadly for us.
3) Burgle cards are good, but not good enough for the RNG,many times you get dead cards and just waste them for combo for other rogue cards. The new cards from other classes are by far better, a 4/4 that Gives you a card AND heals you? I mean just actually compare rogue vs other class cards. Deadly Fork is a worthless card, you have to play the minion, let it die and THEN cast the weapon. That is 3 Man for a 3/2 but you must have the minion die, the only reason it is consider good is that you dont need to put the weapon in your deck so in a way you have 32 cards and not 30, tho Warrior has these same style cards and Upgrade to make them better.
Miracle Rogue isn't OTK. The "best examples" would be Anyfin Paladin, Freeze Mage, etc.