Based off of Dragon Warrior, Aggro Shaman and Zoolock, each deck archetype has around 20 'staples', 12 'commons' and 8 'surprises'. What do I mean by this? Using 4 top decks from various authors, a 'staple' is a non-legendary card of which all 4 decks ran 2 copies, or a legendary which was in all 4 decks. Each non-legendary counts as 2 staples, and each legendary counts as 1. Commons are cards that were run at least half the time (or run as a 1-of in all decks, etc.). Surprises, which includes a lot of tech, is all other cards that showed up in the decks.
Additionally, using a simplified card-value analysis, I calculated the 'overall value' of each individual card. So if I estimated a card to be worth 8 'points', and it should be worth 6, then I multiply the # of copies of that card (in all 4 decks) by 8/6 to get a weighted value estimate. My conclusion was that Aggro Shaman and Zoolock both have around 140 'points' (139.7 and 139.9, respectively), and Dragon Warrior had just over 150. However, there is a reason why Dragon Warrior isn't as powerful as Aggro Shaman or Zoolock: Dragon Warrior doesn't try to burn resources. For instance, Aggro Shaman aggressively uses cards and overload to out-tempo their opponent, and seeks to finish the game before their 'debt' catches up to them. Zoolock does something similar, burning health for tempo- health matters much later in the game, so they can close out the game before their health pool actually matters.
Now, Priest. I looked at what is likely the most stable Priest archetype- control Priest. I found that they have 18 staples, 10 commons and 17 surprises. This demonstrates to me that control Priest is on shaky ground, as it can't create a deck using only staples + commons, which is a necessity for most top-tier decks. The other issue was that Priest had only 141.5 'points', not far ahead of Aggro Shaman and Zoolock. Now, this is bad enough, but the true problem is that Priest can't take a value 'loan', so they're forced to play from behind almost the entire game. And should their opponent out-value them, there is almost nothing they can do to catch up. So without an amazing draw, it'll take far too long for their minor value advantage to catch up to any aggressive deck. And in a slower matchup, it's likely that their opponent will out-value them, at which point the priest has little to no way to win. In fact, the most consistent priest wins tend to be using their opponent's cards, since they tend to be more powerful.
In conclusion, control Priest is too unsteady to perform consistently, doesn't have enough tempo to contest aggro, and will get out-valued by most midrange or control decks.
Because of this, I believe that Priest needs just 3 cards: 1, a high-tempo 2-drop. 2, a high-value board clear card that can 2 for 1. 3, a win condition. This will help it contest midrange and aggro, pressure control, and improve overall consistency.
Tl; dr- Priest needs a high-tempo 2-drop, a high-value board clear card that can 2 for 1, and a win condition.
EDIT: Very good points brought up by LordPikachuStarscream- Priest has enough board clear, they instead need ways to 2v1, and (among other things) a more consistent win condition.
What do you guys think? Does this seem reasonable? Are there other deck archetypes that I should check out?
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
I couldn't help but notice that none of your comparison decks were of the Control variety. I would be very interested to your numbers for a Control Warrior or Concede/Bogchamp Shaman as well, as i feel these types of decks are more closely doing what a Controllish priest would want to be doing (clearing board and playing big threats).
more aggressive decklists are known to have larger amounts of staples, simply because they NEED to be consistent in their openings. More controlly decks might have more leeway in this area?
But other than that, thanks for the great analysis!
I couldn't help but notice that none of your comparison decks were of the Control variety. I would be very interested to your numbers for a Control Warrior or Concede/Bogchamp Shaman as well, as i feel these types of decks are more closely doing what a Controllish priest would want to be doing (clearing board and playing big threats).
more aggressive decklists are known to have larger amounts of staples, simply because they NEED to be consistent in their openings. More controlly decks might have more leeway in this area?
But other than that, thanks for the great analysis!
Good idea... I'll look into it and report what I find! However, my guess as of yet is that while they won't necessarily be more consistent, they will, overall, have higher-value cards. At least, that's what I'd guess from my preliminary 'research'.
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
Yeah we all kind of realized this that's why we want Blizz to make it better. But honestly they are doing pretty well right now imo. I'm having a good time with C'Thun Proest especially, but I have heard some good things with resurrect. Also supposedly Dragon Priest is doing Low Key well but not many are playing it, I'm thinking the next wing will help Dragon Priest out a bit.
Me: *Sees post* "Probably just another guy saying Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
*Reads post* "Tl;dr: Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
They gave exactly that to Shamans in TGT and it wasn't enough to bring the class out of tier 4. Priest needs more than a 2-drop and (yet another) board clear. What it needs is a win condition, unfair mechanics, cards that go 2 for 1, and fewer spells/more minions.
1. Win condition
If you look at control decks over the course of the game, they've historically been very weak compared to others, but why? Because they lack a win condition. The classic ones aimed at stalling the game out until they get to play Ysera and Ragnaros and other big stuff, but the thing is, that strategy is terrible because if you play an 8-mana minion, it just gets answered by, say, a 3-mana spell like Hex, and then you fall massively behind. Also, against aggro, you simply never have the time to play them and they just sit there wasting space in your hand that could have gone to more useful cards. As long as single-target removal is cheap and board clear is expensive, aggro will always be smarter than control. So how to fix? Control needs singular cards that just outright win the game by themselves. The best control decks in the game right now are all built around either N'Zoth, C'thun, or some sort of OTK combo. For control priest to be successful, it needs to be capable of supporting one of those, or something like it in the future.
2. Unfair Mechanics
We all want the game to be fun, balanced, and interactive, but we also want new archetypes and classes to shine. Unfortunately, the only way a new deck comes about is if they receive a mechanism that is inherently unfair. Combo Druid was unfair. Miracle Rogue was unfair. Patron Warrior was unfair. Priest actually has cards in their arsenal that could be considered unfair. The problem is they don't have enough support. One example is Prophet Velen. Prophet Velen is so powerful that the game creators basically can't give Priest any direct damage or else Prophet Velen would be busted. Same story with Auchenai Soulpriest. Priest can't be given any really strong heal effects like Forbidden Healing because then Auchenai would be busted. However, if Priest wants to become a relevant class, that's exactly what it needs. Priest needs cards that can be exploited with Prophet Velen and Auchenai Soulpriest. These are the two best tools that Priest has. They just need to be allowed to shine.
3. Cards that go 2 for 1
Priest has access to two of the most powerful removals in the game: Shadow Word: Pain and Shadow Word: Death. The turn they're played, they offer amazing tempo. The problem is: they don't offer value. Pain and Death, no matter what you play them against, will only trade 1 for 1. Couple this with the fact that, unlike Hex or Polymorph, they cannot be used against just any target, they are actually pretty bad cards. Priest needs removals that can hit any target, like Entomb, and more importantly, they need cards that generate value. Weapons such as Fiery War Axe create value by killing one thing, and then killing another later. Slam creates value by doing two damage, then replacing itself in the hand. Fan of Knives does one damage to all enemies then replaces itself. The closest this that Priest has to free value is Power Word: Shield. People are always demanding that Priest gets a better board clear, because board clears trade 2 for 1, and often do even better than that, but better board clear is only part of the solution. The full solution is they need ways to 2 for 1.
4. Fewer spells/More minions
Like with board clears, people are always demanding that Priest receive and good 2-drop. This is also only part of the solution. Most Priest decks are spell heavy and lack the minion count needed to fight for the board. This results in them passing a lot of turns. The full solution is to give Priest, not just a 2-drop, but fewer spells and more minions with spell-like effects. For example, take Aldor Peacekeeper. Aldor Peacekeeper has the exact same effect as the Paladin spell Humility, but it's much better because even if you can't use the effect, you can play it for the 3/3 body. Same with Ravaging Ghoul. Ravaging Ghoul has the exact same effect as Whirlwind, but it's better because you can play it for the body. SI:7 Agent has a great effect but can also be played for the body. Priest needs minions like these, which do the things that spells do while doubling as a minion that can be played purely for tempo. Great examples that already exist include Auchenai Soulpriest, Darkshire Alchemist, and Cabal Shadow Priest.
Tl;Dr: Priest needs direct damage, high-value heal effects, high-value removals, and minions with spell-like abilities.
I couldn't help but notice that none of your comparison decks were of the Control variety. I would be very interested to your numbers for a Control Warrior or Concede/Bogchamp Shaman as well, as i feel these types of decks are more closely doing what a Controllish priest would want to be doing (clearing board and playing big threats).
more aggressive decklists are known to have larger amounts of staples, simply because they NEED to be consistent in their openings. More controlly decks might have more leeway in this area?
But other than that, thanks for the great analysis!
Good idea... I'll look into it and report what I find! However, my guess as of yet is that while they won't necessarily be more consistent, they will, overall, have higher-value cards. At least, that's what I'd guess from my preliminary 'research'.
All right- I've analyzed Control Warrior (and refined my method a bit), and here's what I came up with.
The deck archetypes by value:
Dragon Warrior (149.1), Control Warrior (145.3), Zoolock (141.9), Aggro Shaman (141.7), Control Priest (141.7).
By 'proactive value' (value on an empty board):
Aggro Shaman (118.1), Dragon Warrior (107.8), Zoolock (107.4), Control Warrior (81.9), Control Priest (76.8).
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
Me: *Sees post* "Probably just another guy saying Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
*Reads post* "Tl;dr: Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
They gave exactly that to Shamans in TGT and it wasn't enough to bring the class out of tier 4. Priest needs more than a 2-drop and (yet another) board clear. What it needs is a win condition, unfair mechanics, cards that go 2 for 1, and fewer spells/more minions.
1. Win condition
If you look at control decks over the course of the game, they've historically been very weak compared to others, but why? Because they lack a win condition. The classic ones aimed at stalling the game out until they get to play Ysera and Ragnaros and other big stuff, but the thing is, that strategy is terrible because if you play an 8-mana minion, it just gets answered by, say, a 3-mana spell like Hex, and then you fall massively behind. Also, against aggro, you simply never have the time to play them and they just sit there wasting space in your hand that could have gone to more useful cards. As long as single-target removal is cheap and board clear is expensive, aggro will always be smarter than control. So how to fix? Control needs singular cards that just outright win the game by themselves. The best control decks in the game right now are all built around either N'Zoth, C'thun, or some sort of OTK combo. For control priest to be successful, it needs to be capable of supporting one of those, or something like it in the future.
2. Unfair Mechanics
We all want the game to be fun, balanced, and interactive, but we also want new archetypes and classes to shine. Unfortunately, the only way a new deck comes about is if they receive a mechanism that is inherently unfair. Combo Druid was unfair. Miracle Rogue was unfair. Patron Warrior was unfair. Priest actually has cards in their arsenal that could be considered unfair. The problem is they don't have enough support. One example is Prophet Velen. Prophet Velen is so powerful that the game creators basically can't give Priest any direct damage or else Prophet Velen would be busted. Same story with Auchenai Soulpriest. Priest can't be given any really strong heal effects like Forbidden Healing because then Auchenai would be busted. However, if Priest wants to become a relevant class, that's exactly what it needs. Priest needs cards that can be exploited with Prophet Velen and Auchenai Soulpriest. These are the two best tools that Priest has. They just need to be allowed to shine.
3. Cards that go 2 for 1
Priest has access to two of the most powerful removals in the game: Shadow Word: Pain and Shadow Word: Death. The turn they're played, they offer amazing tempo. The problem is: they don't offer value. Pain and Death, no matter what you play them against, will only trade 1 for 1. Couple this with the fact that, unlike Hex or Polymorph, they cannot be used against just any target, they are actually pretty bad cards. Priest needs removals that can hit any target, like Entomb, and more importantly, they need cards that generate value. Weapons such as Fiery War Axe create value by killing one thing, and then killing another later. Slam creates value by doing two damage, then replacing itself in the hand. Fan of Knives does one damage to all enemies then replaces itself. The closest this that Priest has to free value is Power Word: Shield. People are always demanding that Priest gets a better board clear, because board clears trade 2 for 1, and often do even better than that, but better board clear is only part of the solution. The full solution is they need ways to 2 for 1.
4. Fewer spells/More minions
Like with board clears, people are always demanding that Priest receive and good 2-drop. This is also only part of the solution. Most Priest decks are spell heavy and lack the minion count needed to fight for the board. This results in them passing a lot of turns. The full solution is to give Priest, not just a 2-drop, but fewer spells and more minions with spell-like effects. For example, take Aldor Peacekeeper. Aldor Peacekeeper has the exact same effect as the Paladin spell Humility, but it's much better because it generates a 3/3 body. Also look at Ravaging Ghoul. Ravaging Ghoul has the exact effect of Whirlwind, but it also generates a 3/3 body. SI:7 Agent has an effect similar to Arcane Shot and Holy Smite, and it too generates a 3/3 body. Priest needs minions like these, which do the things that spells do while doubling as a minion that can be played purely for tempo. Great examples include Auchenai Soulpriest, Darkshire Alchemist, and Cabal Shadow Priest.
Tl;Dr: Priest needs direct damage, high-value heal effects, high-value removals, and minions with spell-like abilities.
Another very good way to look at the same problem... I think I should refine my original post a little bit with the tl;dr- while I said that Priest largely needs a high-value board clear, the truth is (as you've touched on here) that Priest needs a high-value something. I believe that this card can very likely fall under the 2 for 1 category, as well as possibly the win condition. It might also fit under the 'unfair' category... And possibly the 'minion with spell-like ability', if we tried hard enough.
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
All right! Well, to briefly delve into the 'fan creations' side of things, I've created 3 cards that I believe hit all of the points raised throughout this thread:
Firstly, Restless Shade- this is a very proactive card that transfers your health into an opportunity to 2 for 1; it's a 2-drop that has tempo, goes 2 for 1 and provides a body in addition to its effect. Despite all of that, I don't believe it to be game-breaking- it's powerful, but doesn't provide too much value.
Secondly, Verdant Drake- this is more of a value card that has increased tempo when you're behind. And if you have Auchenai Soulpriest out already, this could very well be 'unfair', by providing a powerful AOE with a formidable body.
Finally, Talonpriest Ishaal- this is the win condition, combined with the high-value card that Priest can use to close out a game. Much like Ysera, it will win you the game if left unanswered, and might also be considered 'unfair'. And at the very worst, it cycles itself, so you're nearly guaranteed a 2 for 1.
My estimate for the effect of these cards (assuming the cards get used, ofc):
Value +3.3.
Proactive Value +6.4.
Stability +2 common, +1 staple.
My conclusion from this is that the addition of these 3 cards to the game would leave control priest with slightly more tempo play than control warrior, but leaving warrior with more value plays. It would still be well behind aggro shaman and zoolock for tempo, but could contest the early game much more effectively, and have enough value to eventually win.
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
I actually think that powerlevel-wise he's doing fine. It's not the bast class atm, but it's not like it can't win either.
What I think Priest really needs is cards that speed up his gameplay. I'm tired of going right down to fatigue after a 30m battle you know you have high chances of winning. Their mechanics are annoying, slow and frustrating. At least speeding things up would make things better.
So that said, I heartily support the idea of more 2-drops as that would make for faster decks.
Here's the same problem that every single thread so far that has said "priest needs this", "priest needs that" and yadda' yadda'...
Here is what priest needs: folks to realize its not a proactive class but a reactive class.
Priest HAS 2 drops that are really good. Shadow Word: Pain, Wyrmrest Agent and Museum Curator. And with Karazhan Arcane Anomaly was introduced and its been doing exceedingly well since there are very few matchups and situations that arise where the card gets dealt with that priest doesn't want to happen in that specific matchup.
So what do I mean with that 'priest is a reactive class'? Simple! It has the best baseline for boardclears, removal and control-cards in the game. Period. Unquestionably!
Do priest need a different meta when it will, by design, ALWAYS have a bad matchup against warrior? I believe we got a winner now.
Compare Lesser Heal to Armor Up!: warrior does the same thing as priest except proactively. Priest works on the reactive side on things. These two different hero powers tell the tale of two ENTIRELY different gameplans and priest will always be the worse between the two of these.
However, priest also have access to Shadowform a card that anyone who has played around with it will know that ... two copies of that card singlehandedly beat ANY control warrior.
The conclusion is simple: priest is fine and sits in a WONDERFUL position with the cards that they have access to, but in order to be more common or successful on ladder and in tournaments... yah', there needs to be fewer warriors. That's it. Nothing else, that's the full extent of things. So please... stop wasting hours of your time making very nice arguments coming to frankly pointless conclusions and summarizes that are just wrong because... LordPikachuStarscream captured the entirety of this all in a magnificant way, even tho' its an exceedingly weird name:
Me: *Sees post* "Probably just another guy saying Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
*Reads post* "Tl;dr: Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
And yah', he's right in that if we want priest to become the 'next shaman thing' then yes... everything he spoke of is needed to make it one of the most common classes in tournaments but I don't really want to live in a world where gamedesign is hamfisted to appease... let's just say, 'folks will lesser knowledge of gamedesign' or 'morons' in other words. Fancy arguments or not, priest has the tools to deal with everything other than warrior and warrior is just a natural counter to priest. Its called "Standard" or "Bad meta for priests", so quit yer' whining and go play wild where priest dominated the scene apparently which would also prove my point that its a 'bad case of warrior meta' for priests in standard as well.
Edit: And because I forgot to say this... stop with saying "priest needs overpowered beyond belief 2 drops to work" from the fan section! I can agree with the Talonpriest Ishaal because its actually balanced but quit making your arguments worse with a whole lot of "But if"-situations. There are good and bad additions to a game, promoting one single class by giving it overpowered fan-created bollocks once again for hamfisted arguments is moronic. Here I am not even going to hide the fact that it is a moronic approach to discussions as a whole, specific arguments or gamedesign.
This is a very good point, but perhaps I was a bit unclear on my purpose here- my goal wasn't to come up with some abstract reasons that priest needs a buff. No, my goal was to use very cold-cut analysis to determine what Priest's overall power level is at through overall value, through tempo value, and through archetype stability.
The issue is that as control Priest stands now, it falls behind Warrior, Zoolock and Aggro Shaman in all 3 of those areas... Basically, it's slower than any of those decks, and even if it wasn't, it has a lower overall value. This is obviously a huge problem, and coupled with the inconsistency of the deck, I believe that it's safe to say that control Priest will never be solidly in the meta. The addition of these 3 cards would, on average, raise control Priest's overall proactive value to just over that of control Warrior, but wouldn't surpass control Warrior's overall value. So I agree, Warrior will likely always be a good counter to Priest, but this will at the very least put Priest ahead of Zoolock and Aggro Shaman in terms of value- a necessity for a successful control deck.
As for the 2-drops... Every other deck that I've analyzed has at least 2 2-drops that can contest the board. The closest things that (non-dragon control) Priest has are Museum Curator, which can't trade with most 2-drops, Wild Pyromancer, which you probably shouldn't be playing turn 2, and Shadow Word: Pain, which trades conditionally. If Priest is going to be viable, it can't just Hero Power turn 2- a proactive turn 2 is needed.
By introducing a powerful 2-drop, we now enable control Priest to contest more aggressive decks and transition more smoothly into the later value game. Based off of the numbers right now, Priest is very far from that goal, but I believe one borderline-OP 2-drop will be plenty- a second one would probably make control Priest far too common.
Anyway. That was a bit of a ramble. But I guess the point that I want to explain is this; while we can say "Priest is okay, just wait for the meta to shift," the numbers say something a bit different. They demonstrate that control Priest is behind most competitive decks in a variety of ways, and I don't believe a meta can truly favor control Priest- if Priest is to be at all on par with control Warrior (barring a Priest-only Dr. 7), they need to have a high-tempo 2-drop, as well as high-value late game cards. Until this happens, control Priest will not have a strong presence in any balanced meta.
Hopefully this clears up any confusion (kinda tired, so let me know if what I'm saying doesn't make sense). ...Also, where did I say "but if?"
Today in my free brawl pack I got Barongeddon, then I had a cup of fresh green tea. As a result of that, I think Priest is OP because my keyboard is not a mechanical one. I hope Blizzard will address this issue.
He has shadow word: horror, not so bad against aggro.
Dude, are you serious? I don't see any aggro deck using 1-2 dmg minions. Like, at best you have a chance to clear half of the board, but that's it, and the most dangerous other half will remain.
From my little experience of priest in Karazhan, it needs draw and cycling that doesn't rely on having minions out like northshire cleric or PW:S the most.
Priest needs either a more tempo archetype, or a harder control archetype (this is more likely) to make it viable. Both of these things NEED draw.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You really thought I had something interesting to say at the bottom of my posts?
Sure i'm serious, take a look at zoo warlock, most of his cards are 1-2 attack. Aggro Shaman uses a lot of totems which are all zero attack, other threats can be removed by other shadow words. Face hunter's a bit trickier, but i think it can be handled well too. If you want, i'll pull out those decks' stats, no problem.
Actually, this expansion, apart from purify, has been really good to priest.
A solid 4 drop. Anomaly. Barnes. Bishop (proactive, kinda)
My favorite deck ever was China priest. I would lose to Secret Pally most of the time, but apart from that my winrate was stellar.
I don't play that much constructed anymore since wotog but my experience with priest recently has been pretty successful against CW (specially C'Thun), but failed against almost every other matchup.
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So I've been doing some math...
Based off of Dragon Warrior, Aggro Shaman and Zoolock, each deck archetype has around 20 'staples', 12 'commons' and 8 'surprises'. What do I mean by this? Using 4 top decks from various authors, a 'staple' is a non-legendary card of which all 4 decks ran 2 copies, or a legendary which was in all 4 decks. Each non-legendary counts as 2 staples, and each legendary counts as 1. Commons are cards that were run at least half the time (or run as a 1-of in all decks, etc.). Surprises, which includes a lot of tech, is all other cards that showed up in the decks.
Additionally, using a simplified card-value analysis, I calculated the 'overall value' of each individual card. So if I estimated a card to be worth 8 'points', and it should be worth 6, then I multiply the # of copies of that card (in all 4 decks) by 8/6 to get a weighted value estimate. My conclusion was that Aggro Shaman and Zoolock both have around 140 'points' (139.7 and 139.9, respectively), and Dragon Warrior had just over 150. However, there is a reason why Dragon Warrior isn't as powerful as Aggro Shaman or Zoolock: Dragon Warrior doesn't try to burn resources. For instance, Aggro Shaman aggressively uses cards and overload to out-tempo their opponent, and seeks to finish the game before their 'debt' catches up to them. Zoolock does something similar, burning health for tempo- health matters much later in the game, so they can close out the game before their health pool actually matters.
Now, Priest. I looked at what is likely the most stable Priest archetype- control Priest. I found that they have 18 staples, 10 commons and 17 surprises. This demonstrates to me that control Priest is on shaky ground, as it can't create a deck using only staples + commons, which is a necessity for most top-tier decks. The other issue was that Priest had only 141.5 'points', not far ahead of Aggro Shaman and Zoolock. Now, this is bad enough, but the true problem is that Priest can't take a value 'loan', so they're forced to play from behind almost the entire game. And should their opponent out-value them, there is almost nothing they can do to catch up. So without an amazing draw, it'll take far too long for their minor value advantage to catch up to any aggressive deck. And in a slower matchup, it's likely that their opponent will out-value them, at which point the priest has little to no way to win. In fact, the most consistent priest wins tend to be using their opponent's cards, since they tend to be more powerful.
In conclusion, control Priest is too unsteady to perform consistently, doesn't have enough tempo to contest aggro, and will get out-valued by most midrange or control decks.
Because of this, I believe that Priest needs just 3 cards: 1, a high-tempo 2-drop. 2, a high-value
board clearcard that can 2 for 1. 3, a win condition. This will help it contest midrange and aggro, pressure control, and improve overall consistency.Tl; dr- Priest needs a high-tempo 2-drop, a high-value
board clearcard that can 2 for 1, and a win condition.EDIT: Very good points brought up by LordPikachuStarscream- Priest has enough board clear, they instead need ways to 2v1, and (among other things) a more consistent win condition.
What do you guys think? Does this seem reasonable? Are there other deck archetypes that I should check out?
#gNOmeferatu
I like priest atm
I couldn't help but notice that none of your comparison decks were of the Control variety. I would be very interested to your numbers for a Control Warrior or Concede/Bogchamp Shaman as well, as i feel these types of decks are more closely doing what a Controllish priest would want to be doing (clearing board and playing big threats).
more aggressive decklists are known to have larger amounts of staples, simply because they NEED to be consistent in their openings. More controlly decks might have more leeway in this area?
But other than that, thanks for the great analysis!
Class Mechanics Distribution List
#gNOmeferatu
Yeah we all kind of realized this that's why we want Blizz to make it better. But honestly they are doing pretty well right now imo. I'm having a good time with C'Thun Proest especially, but I have heard some good things with resurrect. Also supposedly Dragon Priest is doing Low Key well but not many are playing it, I'm thinking the next wing will help Dragon Priest out a bit.
Me: *Sees post* "Probably just another guy saying Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
*Reads post* "Tl;dr: Priest needs a good 2-drop and board clear."
They gave exactly that to Shamans in TGT and it wasn't enough to bring the class out of tier 4. Priest needs more than a 2-drop and (yet another) board clear. What it needs is a win condition, unfair mechanics, cards that go 2 for 1, and fewer spells/more minions.
1. Win condition
If you look at control decks over the course of the game, they've historically been very weak compared to others, but why? Because they lack a win condition. The classic ones aimed at stalling the game out until they get to play Ysera and Ragnaros and other big stuff, but the thing is, that strategy is terrible because if you play an 8-mana minion, it just gets answered by, say, a 3-mana spell like Hex, and then you fall massively behind. Also, against aggro, you simply never have the time to play them and they just sit there wasting space in your hand that could have gone to more useful cards. As long as single-target removal is cheap and board clear is expensive, aggro will always be smarter than control. So how to fix? Control needs singular cards that just outright win the game by themselves. The best control decks in the game right now are all built around either N'Zoth, C'thun, or some sort of OTK combo. For control priest to be successful, it needs to be capable of supporting one of those, or something like it in the future.
2. Unfair Mechanics
We all want the game to be fun, balanced, and interactive, but we also want new archetypes and classes to shine. Unfortunately, the only way a new deck comes about is if they receive a mechanism that is inherently unfair. Combo Druid was unfair. Miracle Rogue was unfair. Patron Warrior was unfair. Priest actually has cards in their arsenal that could be considered unfair. The problem is they don't have enough support. One example is Prophet Velen. Prophet Velen is so powerful that the game creators basically can't give Priest any direct damage or else Prophet Velen would be busted. Same story with Auchenai Soulpriest. Priest can't be given any really strong heal effects like Forbidden Healing because then Auchenai would be busted. However, if Priest wants to become a relevant class, that's exactly what it needs. Priest needs cards that can be exploited with Prophet Velen and Auchenai Soulpriest. These are the two best tools that Priest has. They just need to be allowed to shine.
3. Cards that go 2 for 1
Priest has access to two of the most powerful removals in the game: Shadow Word: Pain and Shadow Word: Death. The turn they're played, they offer amazing tempo. The problem is: they don't offer value. Pain and Death, no matter what you play them against, will only trade 1 for 1. Couple this with the fact that, unlike Hex or Polymorph, they cannot be used against just any target, they are actually pretty bad cards. Priest needs removals that can hit any target, like Entomb, and more importantly, they need cards that generate value. Weapons such as Fiery War Axe create value by killing one thing, and then killing another later. Slam creates value by doing two damage, then replacing itself in the hand. Fan of Knives does one damage to all enemies then replaces itself. The closest this that Priest has to free value is Power Word: Shield. People are always demanding that Priest gets a better board clear, because board clears trade 2 for 1, and often do even better than that, but better board clear is only part of the solution. The full solution is they need ways to 2 for 1.
4. Fewer spells/More minions
Like with board clears, people are always demanding that Priest receive and good 2-drop. This is also only part of the solution. Most Priest decks are spell heavy and lack the minion count needed to fight for the board. This results in them passing a lot of turns. The full solution is to give Priest, not just a 2-drop, but fewer spells and more minions with spell-like effects. For example, take Aldor Peacekeeper. Aldor Peacekeeper has the exact same effect as the Paladin spell Humility, but it's much better because even if you can't use the effect, you can play it for the 3/3 body. Same with Ravaging Ghoul. Ravaging Ghoul has the exact same effect as Whirlwind, but it's better because you can play it for the body. SI:7 Agent has a great effect but can also be played for the body. Priest needs minions like these, which do the things that spells do while doubling as a minion that can be played purely for tempo. Great examples that already exist include Auchenai Soulpriest, Darkshire Alchemist, and Cabal Shadow Priest.
Tl;Dr: Priest needs direct damage, high-value heal effects, high-value removals, and minions with spell-like abilities.
#gNOmeferatu
#gNOmeferatu
All right! Well, to briefly delve into the 'fan creations' side of things, I've created 3 cards that I believe hit all of the points raised throughout this thread:
Firstly, Restless Shade- this is a very proactive card that transfers your health into an opportunity to 2 for 1; it's a 2-drop that has tempo, goes 2 for 1 and provides a body in addition to its effect. Despite all of that, I don't believe it to be game-breaking- it's powerful, but doesn't provide too much value.
Secondly, Verdant Drake- this is more of a value card that has increased tempo when you're behind. And if you have Auchenai Soulpriest out already, this could very well be 'unfair', by providing a powerful AOE with a formidable body.
Finally, Talonpriest Ishaal- this is the win condition, combined with the high-value card that Priest can use to close out a game. Much like Ysera, it will win you the game if left unanswered, and might also be considered 'unfair'. And at the very worst, it cycles itself, so you're nearly guaranteed a 2 for 1.
My estimate for the effect of these cards (assuming the cards get used, ofc):
Value +3.3.
Proactive Value +6.4.
Stability +2 common, +1 staple.
My conclusion from this is that the addition of these 3 cards to the game would leave control priest with slightly more tempo play than control warrior, but leaving warrior with more value plays. It would still be well behind aggro shaman and zoolock for tempo, but could contest the early game much more effectively, and have enough value to eventually win.
Thoughts?
#gNOmeferatu
I actually think that powerlevel-wise he's doing fine. It's not the bast class atm, but it's not like it can't win either.
What I think Priest really needs is cards that speed up his gameplay. I'm tired of going right down to fatigue after a 30m battle you know you have high chances of winning. Their mechanics are annoying, slow and frustrating. At least speeding things up would make things better.
So that said, I heartily support the idea of more 2-drops as that would make for faster decks.
#gNOmeferatu
Main problem is propably lack of draw in combination with verry situational cards doesnt provide a good pack,
Priest needs nothing, it's great in wild.
Priest needs a board clear that doesn't take until turn 5 to play.
My solution? Add a card that destroys all silenced minions.
Mass Dispel + 0-cost silence destroyer card = Viability
He has shadow word: horror, not so bad against aggro.
Priest is very reactive.
Opponent puts something on board, priest reacts.
Priest has no answer for 4-attack minion like chillwind yeti, so basically a chillwind yeti can win priest.
Priest cannot overheal. Warrior can stack armor.
From my little experience of priest in Karazhan, it needs draw and cycling that doesn't rely on having minions out like northshire cleric or PW:S the most.
Priest needs either a more tempo archetype, or a harder control archetype (this is more likely) to make it viable. Both of these things NEED draw.
You really thought I had something interesting to say at the bottom of my posts?
Sure i'm serious, take a look at zoo warlock, most of his cards are 1-2 attack. Aggro Shaman uses a lot of totems which are all zero attack, other threats can be removed by other shadow words. Face hunter's a bit trickier, but i think it can be handled well too. If you want, i'll pull out those decks' stats, no problem.
Actually, this expansion, apart from purify, has been really good to priest.
A solid 4 drop. Anomaly. Barnes. Bishop (proactive, kinda)
My favorite deck ever was China priest. I would lose to Secret Pally most of the time, but apart from that my winrate was stellar.
I don't play that much constructed anymore since wotog but my experience with priest recently has been pretty successful against CW (specially C'Thun), but failed against almost every other matchup.