Hey Leaja, what are you current opinions on Ysera atm? I found that Ragnaros is pretty terrible atm, since he can be countered by rush decks flooding the board. At the same time though I see a huge issue with the paladin list you posted (Zilea) being that Tirion will almost always be silenced. In your deck the only prime targets are: Sylvanas, Tirion, Cairne, and Sunwalker. I find Sylvanas dies to well executed board wipes (They send all their creatures at her so she has no target). Now, I could be misplaying her, but either way if they silence Tirion she isn't exactly a great follow up as she is mediocre in stats for a late game drop (5/5 is solid, but it isn't guaranteed to stick).
Ysera, however, provides with a GREAT card draw engine, a problem that most paladins have. Literally everything Ysera gives us is a godsend. More sweepers in Awakening, Dream can be used as a free Brewmaster and between Kodo, Peacekeeper, BGH, etc. we can get plenty of value, plus you can always heal a minion or refresh a sunwalker. Emerald Drake gives us a huge fatty that can then be defender'd or just pressure the opponent, especially since it can come down after a Equality + Conc. Nightmare acts as removal on our tokens or just reach and Laughing Sister is just solid, but not amazing. Ysera also dodges all priest removal (Been seeing a few around Rank 5), has a huge butt so she can be used to pick off minions while refilling our hands, and is extremely problematic for other classes to kill. She can eat a silence and just keep on trucking or get poly'd for Tirion while giving us a card.
These are just my opinions obviously, and I'm only around Rank 5 so I'm nothing special but I have had great success with her. Also, we could run Alchemist as a surprise 12 damage burst from her, although it's pretty much a gimmick. Regardless, thanks for the post it's helped me tons in ranked so far, maybe I can hit legend tonight :)
You can't say the flaw with Tirion is that it can be silenced when if in the same match up ysera can be too.
Tirions card value in thoses deck late game is a lot higher than yseras.
For ysera to be playable you need the advantage in board control.
I didn't say replace tirion, I just said there needs to be more targets to bait the silence. At least Ysera gives you a card when you play her, Tirion gives you nothing if he is silenced or poly'd
Also, we are playing control paladin, it shouldn't be hard to clear the board and set up for a bomb.
Re: LeajaWijac's reply - I understand that colloquial meanings effectively override dictionary definitions in many settings &c. However, understand that criticism of vague terminology - which is something I've brought up in other threads (and noticed in my own writing at times) - arises of the concern that an audience that has different understanding of critical terminology will inevitably not properly understand and benefit from writings using such terminology - as apparently was the case with my understanding of your description of Sylvanas Windrunner. I feel that placing the blame for any misunderstanding entirely upon me is undeserved, but of course, if you feel differently, I will not convince you. (And of course, you may be right in placing whatever responsibility for misunderstanding upon me, even if I totally don't see it - so perhaps we can leave it at that for now, yes?)
crit·i·cal
adjective
2: expressing or involving an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.
a·nal·y·sis
noun
1. detailed examination of the elements or structure of something, typically as a basis for discussion or interpretation.
Not trying to hide behind dictionary definitions, mind, but my understanding of "critical analysis" from both an background in academia and years of practical experience in different fields, is an exhaustive look not only at what *is* the case but what is *not* the case, the merits *and* the faults, as the definition goes, and the reasons in detail "detailed examination" why. Not finding fault with the work that you have done standing by itself, but I find the title "critical analysis" improper to the work.
You may still disagree, of course.
==
Regarding "general CCG / TCG" knowledge - I played Magic: The Gathering since Revised, and went on to collect and study and compete in card games ranging from MtG to Pokemon to Yugioh to Warcry to Warhammer 40,000 to Legend of the Five Rings to X-Men to Star Wars. I've seen every type of statistical analysis, from improperly generated computer-aided analysis, to properly performed and exhaustive research, and read literally thousands of meta articles both published and unpublished, of varying depth. I've studied chess, go, played card games of various sorts for thousands of dollars in stakes, and having read analysis of those games as well, please believe me when I say that typically commentary is absolutely chock-filled with pseudoanalysis with poorly defined terms. I can say with absolute confidence (through personal experience) that what is considered "general CCG/TCG knowledge" and terms will vary widely even in competitive metas from region to region. So is it really any surprise that I call for clearly defined terms, particularly for something that purports to be a "critical analysis"; for how can you have analysis and discussion if you cannot be sure an audience does not share an exacting understanding of the terminologies used? When you say one card is the same idea as another, that's rather imprecise; if I say moving a rook one space or two spaces when pushing an opponent into zugzwang is the same idea, that is quite literally true in terms of conceptualization even if not execution; to my mind Faceless and Sylvanas are entirely different in conceptualization and execution. But - well, let's leave that for now.
==
Regarding various - well, you could call them disagreements, although I'm not sure it merits so strong a term - let us say we have disagreements on some terms and their appropriateness and some disagreements on the proper uses of Sylvanas Windrunner, and leave it at that. I'm happy to take the gauntlet if offered, but I think resolution of the former comes under more carefully defined terminology and argument, which is the broader issue being addressed, and the latter is really just one of those details regarding Paladin meta.
==
To sum up, I hope that you will *possibly* reconsider the reasoning behind asking for very precise terms and tight definitions and exhaustive real analysis not only of what is actually present, but what is not present, to the final detail - with heavy statistical analysis, it would be a rare treat and a true presentation of what I would consider "critical analysis". Barring that, I think the work stands well on its own, but that perhaps you would consider relabeling it "LeajaWijac [Carbon Deckbuilding]'s Examination of Ranked Paladin" - not simply to oblige me, mind, but because an appropriate descriptive title would well serve.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
I had to sign up just so I could point this out. This Moderator vs poster thing is ridiculous. Who cares what the thread is named? The information is valid. How about everyone just agree to disagree and move on? Opinions are like...well you know...and everyone's got one.
@DreamSeer23, np man and I'm super happy you enjoyed the post : ]
As far as Ysera goes, I think she is absolutely amazing in Paladin for every reason you listed. I do think that she can fall under the same weakness you listed for Ragnaros the Firelord though, because she really needs to land on a clear board to ensure game winning value. However, I do totally agree with wanting to replace Ragnaros with her, because ultimately, they both fulfill the same role in the deck of "fatty" or "finisher." So, run her over Ragnaros if she is your preference, I would probably do it as well. The only advantage that I can think of off the top of my head for Ragnaros is that he can be a little bit better against Hunter. The only reason I say that, is because in our matchup they are usually left with an empty board around turn 10+ and we can drop him around then for the final nail in the coffin (ultimately being able to ignore traps and still get the job done).
On Tirion, ya he eats a Silence most the time, but that does still leave us with a nice 6/6 on the board. I even mentioned on my Paladin Deck Guide that in the current Meta, he is very nearly a dead card. Every now and then, Tirion will land and be a 3 for 1 or better, and then you have the games where you know he's about to get Faceless'd, Sheep'd, or Silenced. All in all, he will either eat up a soft-removal for your other Legendaries (or visa versa) or be an unstoppable force. So while yes, he can seem very week against certain matchups, I'd hang onto him
I'm sure that you are playing Sylvanas correctly, but I do want to stress that she is a very high skill leveled card. When you play her, look for super unobvious plays. The day that I hit Legend playing the same deck that Koyuki/Zilea use, I had a play where I Hammer of Wrath'd my own Sylvanas to take my opponents brand new Sylvanas, which later lead to me winning the game. While you could definitely argue that games/opportunities like that are extremely rare, they do happen from time to time and they can be absolutely pivotal. The final decision here again comes down to your preference and what you are experiencing currently on the ladder. If you are going against a bunch of Midrange and Control decks where you think you can get some decent stuff set up on the board (or she will eat a Silence for Tirion later) then Sylvanas is usually very solid and something that has to be dealt with immediately. However, if you are going against a lot of rush decks and aggressive midrange decks, you may want to replace her.
I was running a pretty interesting Deathrattle + Divine Shield deck not too long ago on my stream that was exploiting Redemption with high value Minions like Harvest Golem, Scarlet Crusader, Sunwalker, etc.. The deck was a little bit inconsistent when it didn't land a Redemption or a strong momentum (the same is pretty much true though of any other Paladin decks that don't get Equality). I think the deck is viable, but like you said could use a lot of fine tuning. Also, I think when the new cards come out from the Naxxramus expansion, it may be even more viable.
Knife Juggler has great synergy with the Paladin class as a whole (with our Hero Power making a guy every turn we need it too). We, as Paladin, also have two strong Secrets that combo with Knife Juggler as well, Noble Sacrifice which triggers his ability and defends him and Redemption which can protect him from one removal or trigger his ability if it brings back another Minion. I will be looking around for a solid Knife Juggler deck for you and if I can't find one, I'll probably just end up making one myself to the best of my ability.
Lastly, I like the Spell Damage Paladin deck idea. I've messed around with a type of "Miracle Paladin" deck, but had very little success with it. I will definitely revisit this idea as soon as possible.
I had to sign up just so I could point this out. This Moderator vs poster thing is ridiculous. Who cares what the thread is named? The information is valid. How about everyone just agree to disagree and move on? Opinions are like...well you know...and everyone's got one.
Will you guys just can it? The fact that he is a mod is irrelevant. He is a person with opinions too. And if you disagree with his point, why does that demand a post? -_-
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Unless explicitly stated, my posts are my opinion and mine only.
@LeajaWijac I don't think Rag is truly the final nail in their coffin honestly though, because you HAVE to have a clear board for him to be anywhere near reliable, unlike Ysera who can come down against a few weenies. If Rag misses once he's basically useless, I just see him as a cheaper and weaker pyroblast that hits randomly every turn. Not only that but he won't eat a silence, which sounds great in theory, but we NEED Tirion to die. As awkward as that is, Ashbringer is actually our only real finisher in my experience. Too often against control, you will find yourself in the late game without a bomb and trying to just end the game, but all that's left is small creatures and your tokens. If they stick then you are fine but more often than not control decks will kill off your small weenies, making the game a top deck war. Ashbringer solves that problem by dealing 15 damage to their face to end it (Admittedly more like 9 damage against Warrior or Priest) OR can take out their minions that they play in an attempt to out scale your board. I think Tirion is still great if he is silenced of course, but his weapon is gamebreakingly good. It's so good that I think Turn 5-7 should mainly be about trying to bait out silences/polymorph effects if they have them. If you can keep a 6/6 divine shield taunter unchanged and then get 15 extra damage off of him there is a solid chance of winning the deck.
On a side note, weapon removal is now MANDATORY just like you said. Shamans are now running Doom Hammer + Rockbiter to deal 10 damage in a turn, plus you can get rid of 12 damage (They most likely will use the first two attacks when they play it) with 2 mana. I feel for this reason Slime can actually be better than Harrison in some ways, as drawing 6 or 8 cards will usually make you lose cards.
Last thing is a few questions: I want to ask you, not as your opinion based on what others run or how she is on paper, but how good is Sylvanas in practice? From your experience is she so good that you would probably not cut her unless the meta shifts, or do you think she is just solid? Also, how the hell do we deal with Handlocks? People say "You have equality to just blow up their giants" but if they are smart they will only drop one giant at a time and if you don't equality it and attempt to kill with creatures you better damn well kill it in one turn or else they will just shadowflame it and reset board. As awkward as this is I feel that matchup is terrible for us, because we can't really end the game fast and at any time it goes past T9 they have a chance of turning into Jaraxus and just ending the game. We CANNOT deal 40+ damage in a game (Admittedly not quite 45 between life taps, but they run heals and solid removal) especially when they have really good board clear against our x/3's in the form of hell fire and can just Siphon Life our big bombs. This matchup feels really one sided, which is fine since we can't win them all, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one having problems with them.
Also, I hit Rank 4 last night with only pally, maybe I can hit legend today!
@DreamSeer My experience is that Sunwalker is the silence attractor you're looking for. Abomination is the other one. Obviously Cairne, but I've found people will silence Sunwalker over cairne because of the taunt. And really Sunwalker, to a certain degree, is a cairne with taunt. On top of that, you really can't just leave 4 attack minions on the board for very long.
I just don't know what the point is in keeping our argument going like this. It's like, now its a matter of making me wrong, or making sure you aren't wrong... And yep, we can drop the Sylvanas thing if you want, sure. Now how's about we drop the Title thing too? Oh, and instead of dissecting each word of "critical analysis" and using whichever of the several definitions fits what you want it to mean, I would just look it up as a whole, which will give you a better idea of what it means when the two words are combined.
So... yah, that's what I got for Critical Analysis from dictionary.com. Pretty straight forward, an appraisal based on careful analytical evaluation. There you have it, I appraised Paladin in the Ranked format as carefully and analytically as I could. If it isn't up to your standard, that's fine, I only spent 10 hours writing it, I never said it would be perfect and I respect your opinion. But saying that it isn't a "critical analysis" is your misunderstanding of the definition. I can't even stress how much you are subtracting from the entire concept of this post with this irrelevant nit-picking and nagging. So far you are the only one who has had a problem with the title, and okay, thank you for your opinion, now can you drop it? I'm not changing the title, it's completely appropriate the way it is.
And you keep mentioning how a critical analysis also talks about what is not working. Very interesting, because if you read through the entire thread you would know that I don't only mention what's working, but also what is no longer being used, like Giant Control Paladin. I also want to point out that I do have an entire "Con's" section. If that isn't enough, don't worry, I'm going to add even more stuff that just isn't working as soon as I have time for an update (for example the Sunfury Protector's have fallen off in certain decks as of late). I would even go as far as doing a number breakdown of win/loss percentages with a deck, but that will always be subject to change for when new decks come out and what you are going against at whatever rank you are, etc... Should I also stress here that I don't get paid to do this?
If anyone has a card they aren't sure about why it is or isn't in the deck and alternatives, etc.. they usually ask right on here and then me or whoever can answer to the best of their ability will do so accordingly. That is why I made this thread and labeled it as such.
I'm not even going to get started on the "general knowledge" section and everything under that. Thank you for taking the time to give some of your personal experiences and opinions, I'll be sure to take them all into consideration.
Ya, I know what you mean about ol Rag, he can really suck in certain situations, I was just saying that in some cases versus face-Hunters that run a lot of burn and traps, you will find yourself on an empty board somewhat stalemated, at which point Ragnaros is king. Or against any deck where you have finally gotten some board domination, Rag can be a nice finisher. But as an overall Minion, I definitely agree with you, I feel that Ysera is much better and offers us some great tools as Paladin (on top of being a monster of a problem for your Opponent to deal with).
On Sylvanas, in my experience, she most often eats a lot of Silences or the opponents entire board. Every now and then, you will get a chance to use her for her ability, which is probably going to be a game winning opportunity. So overall, she has been pretty solid, and as we discussed earlier, she is a great card to eat up a Silence and clear the way for Tirion.
On Handlock, you want to try and use Aldor Peacekeeper on the first Giant, and then save Equality combo's for later in the game when they toss down 2 at a time. Now of course, all of that is ideal, every now and then you will have to blow a combo early when they Silence the Giant to make it back into an 8/8. It is in these matchups that cards like Sylvanas, BGH, and TBK come in very handy. Regardless though man, as you have experienced, this is a very hard matchup for us. Always try to stay above 20 Health, this deck has a vicious late game burst combo with Leeroy. Priority opening hand cards against Warlock for me are always a part of the Equal + Pyro combo and then Peacekeeper's (because these are the best cards overall, even against the blitz matchups).
Hope that helped a little bit man, and grats on rank 4! Keep your faith in the Light! : ]
So the OP takes his time to put together a write up regarding the paladin class to help out other paladin players with the intentions of reaching legendary. He provides an analysis and opinions of cards in the deck and how to use them in certain situations. I dont know how this came about to come in and just pick certain aspects of the content and create an argument against it and now it becomes who can cut and paste dictionary.com Then start arguing about wording instead of discussing the topic of this thread, the paladin class and how you can be successful using this class based on what is going on in the HS community.
I dont think he ever said this is the bible, clearly, this is his opinion and based on his experience so everyone has the ability to come up with their own conclusions. It may work for some and may not work for others.
So IMO, i dont think anybody else cares (besides the moderator) about the title of this thread, it isn't like its "How to fukin own bitches with PALADIN!" Lets talk paladin and how we can improve our experience with the class. We all know it isn't the most popular class so any help is appreciated. I am ranked 8, but who cares, i can have an opinion as much as anybody else.
@LeajaWijac Dude, Peacekeeper is easily my most favorite card in the ENTIRE deck. Before when I was just learning the ropes I would try to maximize him on cards like Yeti or Doomguard or anything else 5+ but after reading about how it's pretty good on flame imp and the like I decided to try it out. It's a fucking house, he's so amazing and I thank you for that advice, probably won me ~10 games on that advice alone already.
With Handlock, though, I feel like you need a TON of pieces for it to go your way. I feel like against them you literally need like 4 or 5 answers to the giants or else you can't get past them. I also like to Peacekeeper the Drake as it can't be silenced for good value, but I'm not sure if that is right, can I get your opinion on that?
Side note: Do you think Hammer of Wrath would be a staple if it was 3 mana for 2 damage and still drew a card or would you think it would be worse? Just a thought I've had and wanted to get opinions on
@DreamSeer23, that's awesome man, yah Peacekeeper is a freaking beast. One of my favorite games that I can recall with him was actually versus an Armor Control Warrior. The Warrior waits until it was super late in the game, and he drops Deathwing of all things. So naturally, like the gentleman I always try to be. I force him to "Follow ze rules!" with the Peacekeeper. ; ] Good stuff!
Against Handlock, I don't think Silencing a Drake is all that bad of an idea. Don't get me wrong though, sometimes you have to Peacekeeper it or its going to get out of control. However, when I think about all their Minion's, the only other thing you may want to Silence would be a "Taunted" Minion from something like an Argus or Protector (but all that does really is open up some options for your Black Knight). I will say that ideally, you want to save your "minimizes" from Peacekeeper on the Giants if at all possible. I know this may sound crazy, but I often times try to take out the Drake's with a Truesilver + Minion if I can.
I'll do a little list of things that I would try to match up/save for whatever you run into with a Handlock
1st Aldor = 1st Giant
1st Equality = 2nd Giant
2nd Aldor = 3rd Giant
2nd Equality = 4th Giant
1st Truesilver = 1st Drake (or Silence if you have it)
2nd Truesilver = 2nd Drake (or Silence if you didn't draw it for the first Drake)
EDIT: Also, I didn't even add our BGH or TBK, so throw those out whenever possible for even more value.
As for Hammer, I think it's pretty solid where it is, the number 3 is pretty magical right now, as its just enough to take out things like Amani Berserker, Acolyte of Pain, Northshire Cleric, Harvest Golem, etc.. I definitely don't think it would have been bad at 3 mana for 2 dmg + cantrip, but I do personally like it where it is now. The earlier more aggressive mana cost sure would have been interesting though : ] especially for that early application it would then have against rush decks, coining it out on turn 2 to take out Knife Juggler's and what not. Very cool idea.
What I would really like for Paladin to get soon is basically a "Holy Shock" type of card. I'd like for it to be a 1-2 mana damage spell when cast on enemy characters but heals on friendly cast. Just as an example: "Holy Shock, 2 mana Paladin Spell, Deal 3 damage to any Character. If the Character is friendly heal 3 instead (very similar to Demonfire)." I don't think that would be broken, and it would help us in the early game against all the blitz shenanigans, or give us utility against the Midrange/Control matchups where it could double over as a heal.
I'm interested what you guys think of the new paladin secret just released as a preview on naxx? Personally, I like Avenge and think it fits the paladin theme perfectly. Here is the link to the thread:
In my opinion, using this secret as an aggro paladin is going to be really interesting, as long as the secret doesn't go off when someone clears your board, thus making it useless. But as misdirect doesn't go off if there is nothing else on the board iirc, that shouldn't be a problem.
For a control paladin, I can't really think of an optimal situtation to use it in... Aggro opponents just go to the face, and if they kill your taunt, well the +3/+2 just isn't going to help because the main problem isn't the quality of your minions, it's the fact that you are overwhelmed... In control vs control, it could come handy, but still, I would prefer having another card instead...
To be honest, I don't really find it as interesting as say poison seeds for druid, and I hope they tweak it a bit so it doesn't suit only aggro pallys...
I'm pretty disappointed in the spoiled card. I'm more of a Control and Midrange player, and this may have a home in Midrange or Aggro, but definitely not in Control (and I'm even skeptical of midrange). I don't know, trying to stay optimistic though, maybe an entirely new deck will pop up for this card to find a home in...
It depends on what else is coming in the neutral, but it seems like Redemption, Avenge, and Get Down are going to synergize for a VERY powerful death-rattle pally deck. Whether that'll be aggro or control, I've no idea... But imagine this buff going on the new Egg turning it into a 3/4 that'll summon a 4/4 on death...
Eye for an Eye still remains useless and all-in-all this card does feel like Blizzard thumbing there noes at pally players...
Just for the record, Deathrattle triggers BEFORE secrets. So if you only have a golem or nerubian egg out with this secret and they die you will get a 5/3 golem or 7/6 Nerubian respectively. I think that is pretty awesome on the egg. It's an amazing card for Aggro paladin given that it will always buff something if their harvest golem is down and can trigger off of Noble Sacrifice, but overall I don't think it will be played in control paladin.
EDIT: Forgot the change to secrets, meaning there is no combo for us to be able to use. (Was thinking you could equality pyro with egg and avenge on board, even if it is gimmicky it was just a thought).
For my take on a different kind of Paladin, Spell-a-din. There were a few really old and poorly constructed decks on here that focused on spell damage buffing, but this one has been ladder viable so far. Given, I'm running this at rank 20-19 so I've no idea how it'll play out at lower ranks.
I definitely have a higher win rate against hunters now though.
I've also started to rethink Equality since building and modifying this deck. It seems that Equality is more damaging then helpful most of the time. I can't count how often I've wanted Equality to be anything else in my hand when I first draw it. As such I'm experimenting with running just 1 in my decks.
Also, I tried running Holy Wrath for a while. When you realize that it draws a card and doesn't destroy that card it *can* really pay off, but I think it's a card to only consider in a Giants deck. 20 damage to the face IS tempting, but how often does that happen? The couple of times I got to use it I did a whooping 2 damage :(
Oh, and lastly, think of Bloodmage Thalnos as being Malygos when looking at this deck list. I don't have Malygos so I'm left with the Bloodmage...
Actually, in the deck write-up I mention removing Ancient Mage. Right now I'm testing 2 Acolyte of Pains. Frankly I didn't think the deck idea would work, but it surprisingly trumps hunter hard. Have to modify it more for Zoolock though.
I really like the idea, but similarly to what Balckovic was saying, I wish we had more spells that it would buff. You may even want to experiment with Eye for an Eye. Who knows, against face decks if they go for a dome shot of 3-5 damage and you have +2 or +3 Spell Damage on the board, you may actually be able to do some good return damage.
I also agree with your discretion on Equality in this deck. I think you would be able to combo a few guys with Consecration to do enough to deal with whatever, especially if they ignore your Minions.
I didn't say replace tirion, I just said there needs to be more targets to bait the silence. At least Ysera gives you a card when you play her, Tirion gives you nothing if he is silenced or poly'd
Also, we are playing control paladin, it shouldn't be hard to clear the board and set up for a bomb.
2: expressing or involving an analysis of the merits and faults of a work of literature, music, or art.
If you see a post that you find objectionable, report it, it helps keep the forum clean. But be aware people are allowed a lot of latitude.
If you find my posts to be rude, objectionable, or whatever, well, I got tired of writing polite TL; DR (Too Long, Didn't Read) posts at crybaby whiners. So now I just make it short and nasty.
If you find that funny, well and good. If you find that sad, that's even better.
I had to sign up just so I could point this out. This Moderator vs poster thing is ridiculous. Who cares what the thread is named? The information is valid. How about everyone just agree to disagree and move on? Opinions are like...well you know...and everyone's got one.
@DreamSeer23, np man and I'm super happy you enjoyed the post : ]
As far as Ysera goes, I think she is absolutely amazing in Paladin for every reason you listed. I do think that she can fall under the same weakness you listed for Ragnaros the Firelord though, because she really needs to land on a clear board to ensure game winning value. However, I do totally agree with wanting to replace Ragnaros with her, because ultimately, they both fulfill the same role in the deck of "fatty" or "finisher." So, run her over Ragnaros if she is your preference, I would probably do it as well. The only advantage that I can think of off the top of my head for Ragnaros is that he can be a little bit better against Hunter. The only reason I say that, is because in our matchup they are usually left with an empty board around turn 10+ and we can drop him around then for the final nail in the coffin (ultimately being able to ignore traps and still get the job done).
On Tirion, ya he eats a Silence most the time, but that does still leave us with a nice 6/6 on the board. I even mentioned on my Paladin Deck Guide that in the current Meta, he is very nearly a dead card. Every now and then, Tirion will land and be a 3 for 1 or better, and then you have the games where you know he's about to get Faceless'd, Sheep'd, or Silenced. All in all, he will either eat up a soft-removal for your other Legendaries (or visa versa) or be an unstoppable force. So while yes, he can seem very week against certain matchups, I'd hang onto him
I'm sure that you are playing Sylvanas correctly, but I do want to stress that she is a very high skill leveled card. When you play her, look for super unobvious plays. The day that I hit Legend playing the same deck that Koyuki/Zilea use, I had a play where I Hammer of Wrath'd my own Sylvanas to take my opponents brand new Sylvanas, which later lead to me winning the game. While you could definitely argue that games/opportunities like that are extremely rare, they do happen from time to time and they can be absolutely pivotal. The final decision here again comes down to your preference and what you are experiencing currently on the ladder. If you are going against a bunch of Midrange and Control decks where you think you can get some decent stuff set up on the board (or she will eat a Silence for Tirion later) then Sylvanas is usually very solid and something that has to be dealt with immediately. However, if you are going against a lot of rush decks and aggressive midrange decks, you may want to replace her.
Hope this helped : ]
@Balckovic, thank you very much : D
I was running a pretty interesting Deathrattle + Divine Shield deck not too long ago on my stream that was exploiting Redemption with high value Minions like Harvest Golem, Scarlet Crusader, Sunwalker, etc.. The deck was a little bit inconsistent when it didn't land a Redemption or a strong momentum (the same is pretty much true though of any other Paladin decks that don't get Equality). I think the deck is viable, but like you said could use a lot of fine tuning. Also, I think when the new cards come out from the Naxxramus expansion, it may be even more viable.
Knife Juggler has great synergy with the Paladin class as a whole (with our Hero Power making a guy every turn we need it too). We, as Paladin, also have two strong Secrets that combo with Knife Juggler as well, Noble Sacrifice which triggers his ability and defends him and Redemption which can protect him from one removal or trigger his ability if it brings back another Minion. I will be looking around for a solid Knife Juggler deck for you and if I can't find one, I'll probably just end up making one myself to the best of my ability.
Lastly, I like the Spell Damage Paladin deck idea. I've messed around with a type of "Miracle Paladin" deck, but had very little success with it. I will definitely revisit this idea as soon as possible.
Will you guys just can it? The fact that he is a mod is irrelevant. He is a person with opinions too. And if you disagree with his point, why does that demand a post? -_-
Unless explicitly stated, my posts are my opinion and mine only.
@LeajaWijac I don't think Rag is truly the final nail in their coffin honestly though, because you HAVE to have a clear board for him to be anywhere near reliable, unlike Ysera who can come down against a few weenies. If Rag misses once he's basically useless, I just see him as a cheaper and weaker pyroblast that hits randomly every turn. Not only that but he won't eat a silence, which sounds great in theory, but we NEED Tirion to die. As awkward as that is, Ashbringer is actually our only real finisher in my experience. Too often against control, you will find yourself in the late game without a bomb and trying to just end the game, but all that's left is small creatures and your tokens. If they stick then you are fine but more often than not control decks will kill off your small weenies, making the game a top deck war. Ashbringer solves that problem by dealing 15 damage to their face to end it (Admittedly more like 9 damage against Warrior or Priest) OR can take out their minions that they play in an attempt to out scale your board. I think Tirion is still great if he is silenced of course, but his weapon is gamebreakingly good. It's so good that I think Turn 5-7 should mainly be about trying to bait out silences/polymorph effects if they have them. If you can keep a 6/6 divine shield taunter unchanged and then get 15 extra damage off of him there is a solid chance of winning the deck.
On a side note, weapon removal is now MANDATORY just like you said. Shamans are now running Doom Hammer + Rockbiter to deal 10 damage in a turn, plus you can get rid of 12 damage (They most likely will use the first two attacks when they play it) with 2 mana. I feel for this reason Slime can actually be better than Harrison in some ways, as drawing 6 or 8 cards will usually make you lose cards.
Last thing is a few questions: I want to ask you, not as your opinion based on what others run or how she is on paper, but how good is Sylvanas in practice? From your experience is she so good that you would probably not cut her unless the meta shifts, or do you think she is just solid? Also, how the hell do we deal with Handlocks? People say "You have equality to just blow up their giants" but if they are smart they will only drop one giant at a time and if you don't equality it and attempt to kill with creatures you better damn well kill it in one turn or else they will just shadowflame it and reset board. As awkward as this is I feel that matchup is terrible for us, because we can't really end the game fast and at any time it goes past T9 they have a chance of turning into Jaraxus and just ending the game. We CANNOT deal 40+ damage in a game (Admittedly not quite 45 between life taps, but they run heals and solid removal) especially when they have really good board clear against our x/3's in the form of hell fire and can just Siphon Life our big bombs. This matchup feels really one sided, which is fine since we can't win them all, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one having problems with them.
Also, I hit Rank 4 last night with only pally, maybe I can hit legend today!
@DreamSeer My experience is that Sunwalker is the silence attractor you're looking for. Abomination is the other one. Obviously Cairne, but I've found people will silence Sunwalker over cairne because of the taunt. And really Sunwalker, to a certain degree, is a cairne with taunt. On top of that, you really can't just leave 4 attack minions on the board for very long.
I just don't know what the point is in keeping our argument going like this. It's like, now its a matter of making me wrong, or making sure you aren't wrong... And yep, we can drop the Sylvanas thing if you want, sure. Now how's about we drop the Title thing too? Oh, and instead of dissecting each word of "critical analysis" and using whichever of the several definitions fits what you want it to mean, I would just look it up as a whole, which will give you a better idea of what it means when the two words are combined.
noun
So... yah, that's what I got for Critical Analysis from dictionary.com. Pretty straight forward, an appraisal based on careful analytical evaluation. There you have it, I appraised Paladin in the Ranked format as carefully and analytically as I could. If it isn't up to your standard, that's fine, I only spent 10 hours writing it, I never said it would be perfect and I respect your opinion. But saying that it isn't a "critical analysis" is your misunderstanding of the definition. I can't even stress how much you are subtracting from the entire concept of this post with this irrelevant nit-picking and nagging. So far you are the only one who has had a problem with the title, and okay, thank you for your opinion, now can you drop it? I'm not changing the title, it's completely appropriate the way it is.
And you keep mentioning how a critical analysis also talks about what is not working. Very interesting, because if you read through the entire thread you would know that I don't only mention what's working, but also what is no longer being used, like Giant Control Paladin. I also want to point out that I do have an entire "Con's" section. If that isn't enough, don't worry, I'm going to add even more stuff that just isn't working as soon as I have time for an update (for example the Sunfury Protector's have fallen off in certain decks as of late). I would even go as far as doing a number breakdown of win/loss percentages with a deck, but that will always be subject to change for when new decks come out and what you are going against at whatever rank you are, etc... Should I also stress here that I don't get paid to do this?
If anyone has a card they aren't sure about why it is or isn't in the deck and alternatives, etc.. they usually ask right on here and then me or whoever can answer to the best of their ability will do so accordingly. That is why I made this thread and labeled it as such.
I'm not even going to get started on the "general knowledge" section and everything under that. Thank you for taking the time to give some of your personal experiences and opinions, I'll be sure to take them all into consideration.
@DreamSeer23
Ya, I know what you mean about ol Rag, he can really suck in certain situations, I was just saying that in some cases versus face-Hunters that run a lot of burn and traps, you will find yourself on an empty board somewhat stalemated, at which point Ragnaros is king. Or against any deck where you have finally gotten some board domination, Rag can be a nice finisher. But as an overall Minion, I definitely agree with you, I feel that Ysera is much better and offers us some great tools as Paladin (on top of being a monster of a problem for your Opponent to deal with).
On Sylvanas, in my experience, she most often eats a lot of Silences or the opponents entire board. Every now and then, you will get a chance to use her for her ability, which is probably going to be a game winning opportunity. So overall, she has been pretty solid, and as we discussed earlier, she is a great card to eat up a Silence and clear the way for Tirion.
On Handlock, you want to try and use Aldor Peacekeeper on the first Giant, and then save Equality combo's for later in the game when they toss down 2 at a time. Now of course, all of that is ideal, every now and then you will have to blow a combo early when they Silence the Giant to make it back into an 8/8. It is in these matchups that cards like Sylvanas, BGH, and TBK come in very handy. Regardless though man, as you have experienced, this is a very hard matchup for us. Always try to stay above 20 Health, this deck has a vicious late game burst combo with Leeroy. Priority opening hand cards against Warlock for me are always a part of the Equal + Pyro combo and then Peacekeeper's (because these are the best cards overall, even against the blitz matchups).
Hope that helped a little bit man, and grats on rank 4! Keep your faith in the Light! : ]
So the OP takes his time to put together a write up regarding the paladin class to help out other paladin players with the intentions of reaching legendary. He provides an analysis and opinions of cards in the deck and how to use them in certain situations. I dont know how this came about to come in and just pick certain aspects of the content and create an argument against it and now it becomes who can cut and paste dictionary.com Then start arguing about wording instead of discussing the topic of this thread, the paladin class and how you can be successful using this class based on what is going on in the HS community.
I dont think he ever said this is the bible, clearly, this is his opinion and based on his experience so everyone has the ability to come up with their own conclusions. It may work for some and may not work for others.
So IMO, i dont think anybody else cares (besides the moderator) about the title of this thread, it isn't like its "How to fukin own bitches with PALADIN!" Lets talk paladin and how we can improve our experience with the class. We all know it isn't the most popular class so any help is appreciated. I am ranked 8, but who cares, i can have an opinion as much as anybody else.
@LeajaWijac Dude, Peacekeeper is easily my most favorite card in the ENTIRE deck. Before when I was just learning the ropes I would try to maximize him on cards like Yeti or Doomguard or anything else 5+ but after reading about how it's pretty good on flame imp and the like I decided to try it out. It's a fucking house, he's so amazing and I thank you for that advice, probably won me ~10 games on that advice alone already.
With Handlock, though, I feel like you need a TON of pieces for it to go your way. I feel like against them you literally need like 4 or 5 answers to the giants or else you can't get past them. I also like to Peacekeeper the Drake as it can't be silenced for good value, but I'm not sure if that is right, can I get your opinion on that?
Side note: Do you think Hammer of Wrath would be a staple if it was 3 mana for 2 damage and still drew a card or would you think it would be worse? Just a thought I've had and wanted to get opinions on
@DreamSeer23, that's awesome man, yah Peacekeeper is a freaking beast. One of my favorite games that I can recall with him was actually versus an Armor Control Warrior. The Warrior waits until it was super late in the game, and he drops Deathwing of all things. So naturally, like the gentleman I always try to be. I force him to "Follow ze rules!" with the Peacekeeper. ; ] Good stuff!
Against Handlock, I don't think Silencing a Drake is all that bad of an idea. Don't get me wrong though, sometimes you have to Peacekeeper it or its going to get out of control. However, when I think about all their Minion's, the only other thing you may want to Silence would be a "Taunted" Minion from something like an Argus or Protector (but all that does really is open up some options for your Black Knight). I will say that ideally, you want to save your "minimizes" from Peacekeeper on the Giants if at all possible. I know this may sound crazy, but I often times try to take out the Drake's with a Truesilver + Minion if I can.
I'll do a little list of things that I would try to match up/save for whatever you run into with a Handlock
As for Hammer, I think it's pretty solid where it is, the number 3 is pretty magical right now, as its just enough to take out things like Amani Berserker, Acolyte of Pain, Northshire Cleric, Harvest Golem, etc.. I definitely don't think it would have been bad at 3 mana for 2 dmg + cantrip, but I do personally like it where it is now. The earlier more aggressive mana cost sure would have been interesting though : ] especially for that early application it would then have against rush decks, coining it out on turn 2 to take out Knife Juggler's and what not. Very cool idea.
What I would really like for Paladin to get soon is basically a "Holy Shock" type of card. I'd like for it to be a 1-2 mana damage spell when cast on enemy characters but heals on friendly cast. Just as an example: "Holy Shock, 2 mana Paladin Spell, Deal 3 damage to any Character. If the Character is friendly heal 3 instead (very similar to Demonfire)." I don't think that would be broken, and it would help us in the early game against all the blitz shenanigans, or give us utility against the Midrange/Control matchups where it could double over as a heal.
In my opinion, using this secret as an aggro paladin is going to be really interesting, as long as the secret doesn't go off when someone clears your board, thus making it useless. But as misdirect doesn't go off if there is nothing else on the board iirc, that shouldn't be a problem.
For a control paladin, I can't really think of an optimal situtation to use it in... Aggro opponents just go to the face, and if they kill your taunt, well the +3/+2 just isn't going to help because the main problem isn't the quality of your minions, it's the fact that you are overwhelmed... In control vs control, it could come handy, but still, I would prefer having another card instead...
To be honest, I don't really find it as interesting as say poison seeds for druid, and I hope they tweak it a bit so it doesn't suit only aggro pallys...
I'm pretty disappointed in the spoiled card. I'm more of a Control and Midrange player, and this may have a home in Midrange or Aggro, but definitely not in Control (and I'm even skeptical of midrange). I don't know, trying to stay optimistic though, maybe an entirely new deck will pop up for this card to find a home in...
It depends on what else is coming in the neutral, but it seems like Redemption, Avenge, and Get Down are going to synergize for a VERY powerful death-rattle pally deck. Whether that'll be aggro or control, I've no idea... But imagine this buff going on the new Egg turning it into a 3/4 that'll summon a 4/4 on death...
Eye for an Eye still remains useless and all-in-all this card does feel like Blizzard thumbing there noes at pally players...
Just for the record, Deathrattle triggers BEFORE secrets. So if you only have a golem or nerubian egg out with this secret and they die you will get a 5/3 golem or 7/6 Nerubian respectively. I think that is pretty awesome on the egg. It's an amazing card for Aggro paladin given that it will always buff something if their harvest golem is down and can trigger off of Noble Sacrifice, but overall I don't think it will be played in control paladin.
EDIT: Forgot the change to secrets, meaning there is no combo for us to be able to use. (Was thinking you could equality pyro with egg and avenge on board, even if it is gimmicky it was just a thought).
For my take on a different kind of Paladin, Spell-a-din. There were a few really old and poorly constructed decks on here that focused on spell damage buffing, but this one has been ladder viable so far. Given, I'm running this at rank 20-19 so I've no idea how it'll play out at lower ranks.
I definitely have a higher win rate against hunters now though.
I've also started to rethink Equality since building and modifying this deck. It seems that Equality is more damaging then helpful most of the time. I can't count how often I've wanted Equality to be anything else in my hand when I first draw it. As such I'm experimenting with running just 1 in my decks.
Also, I tried running Holy Wrath for a while. When you realize that it draws a card and doesn't destroy that card it *can* really pay off, but I think it's a card to only consider in a Giants deck. 20 damage to the face IS tempting, but how often does that happen? The couple of times I got to use it I did a whooping 2 damage :(
Oh, and lastly, think of Bloodmage Thalnos as being Malygos when looking at this deck list. I don't have Malygos so I'm left with the Bloodmage...
Actually, in the deck write-up I mention removing Ancient Mage. Right now I'm testing 2 Acolyte of Pains. Frankly I didn't think the deck idea would work, but it surprisingly trumps hunter hard. Have to modify it more for Zoolock though.
I really like the idea, but similarly to what Balckovic was saying, I wish we had more spells that it would buff. You may even want to experiment with Eye for an Eye. Who knows, against face decks if they go for a dome shot of 3-5 damage and you have +2 or +3 Spell Damage on the board, you may actually be able to do some good return damage.
I also agree with your discretion on Equality in this deck. I think you would be able to combo a few guys with Consecration to do enough to deal with whatever, especially if they ignore your Minions.