So whenever I start seeing a deck a lot on the ladder I like to play some variations of it to get a good feel for the deck and see if I can understand how it works. With the rise of Secret Paladin I figured I should play some games with it. Last season I was still stubbornly grinding Control Warrior wins, but I was seeing the deck often enough that it seemed like it would be worth trying to get a handle on it.
In playing I've noticed that there are a lot of situations where I win off the back of my opponent making awkward plays around my secrets, whether they come from MC or just from hand. I've been in the situation many times where I think "Well, if they do this right I just lose." and then they don't and it goes very well for me.
I'm making no comment here on whether this deck is OP or brainless or anything like that. I'm mostly interested in hearing from other people that have picked up the deck. Does it seem like people make the appropriate plays around the secrets? Do they consistently mess up? I'm curious, as it feels like my winrate with the deck would drop drastically if the majority of players had a better feel for the secrets, but I'd like to hear how other people feel from their own experiences.
I haven't played SPally that much, but noticed the same thing. When playing against SPally though, there are only a few things I tend to keep in mind when checking for, or trying to play around secrets:
The secrets easiest to predict are usually Noble Sac and Avenge (a redemption into minibot can be really annoying too, but it happens less frequently I'd say). So always make sure that you keep or have at least 3 damage from hand (avenge proc gives +2 health and most dudes have 1-2 health) and think cleverly what to attack first with in case of get down. It's a steamtrain after Challenger gets played, but you know most of the time there'll be a Repentance in there too.
I feel like the match-up is winnable if you play around those and try to answer them as soon as they proc. The other secrets (comp spirit and redemption) can be played around more easily.
By the launch of TGT peopple used to make a lot of mistakes, but that doesn't happen anymore in any rank higher than 15. About 99% of the ladder know how to play around it.
Secret paladin isnt a top tier deck imo. It's doing so well b/c ppl don't really know how to handle it.
once more people get used to the order of the secrets it'll b less and less popular. As of now I find the deck overrated. My win rate vs it is higher than my win rate vs shaman (dunno why but I'm bad vs shaman, only 55% win record against shaman)
I play the deck and I can tell you people know how to play around the Christmas tree of secrets well. But sometimes it doesn't matter as you're already winning by so much. Mixed results on playing them one at a time. If you don't make obvious what it is, they can play around the wrong things and get punished for it.
This is sort of a misstatement. There's a difference between knowing how to play around them and being able to. Some decks are ill-equipped to be able to kill a 2/1, then deal with a 9/8 (or more) and a 2/1 again while also having their first minion reduced to 1 health on ETB. You need to have a lot of resources available to you to deal with the board state post X-Mas tree OR just still not care and go face.
Personally, I think I know how to play around them. I bet most other players do too. The better secrets are well known after a bunch of games against them so it's fairly easy to predict but not prevent...
My usual problems are: 1. They start with a great curve almost always, ergo; I have a board disadvantage (or none at all) before Dr.6. 2. I dont have the removal by the time Dr. 6 comes in. 3. I answer the Dr. 6 round, they drop Dr. 7 / 8 4. Divine favor.
It doesn't matter if you have any kind of board. It's just too much value, and a ton of damage. With just one token it's much harder to deal with all the secrets and the value snowballs. However, it matters a lot if your board is empty. It's easy to diffuse the tree of secrets on an empty board: play one low cost minion, attack once to face and BGH on Dr. 6. A good player will already know what the common secrets are and keep count of them. But the best players play around your swing cards like Dr. 6, Divine Favor, and Kings.
It's impossible to know what secret they played and play around it. for example 2 minions on board, you can either kill one and give an Avenge buff to the other or kill one and then it could come back from Redemption (especially troublesome with minibot or Shredder). You could argue to just ignore both and go face, but this is rarely a wise move unless you are already way ahead on board.
This is sort of a misstatement. There's a difference between knowing how to play around them and being able to. Some decks are ill-equipped to be able to kill a 2/1, then deal with a 9/8 (or more) and a 2/1 again while also having their first minion reduced to 1 health on ETB. You need to have a lot of resources available to you to deal with the board state post X-Mas tree OR just still not care and go face.
This is true. Even if you know how to play around them, depending on how many cards you have in your hand or whether you have initative or not matters a lot.
People just assume they have like 7-10 mana avalivble and 7 cards to chose from when procing the secrets. Sometimes the Christmas tree lights up and you have like "3" cards in hand and a weak or no board due to battling of other threats. So... you can't always play around them even if you know how.
You can play around one secret or at least try to....
but
you can't play around broken cards like MC. I bet that blizz devs were to stupid to think that, ppl would put almost all secrets to a deck and get almost 20 mana of value turn 6. (5 x 1 mana secrets + 5 x 1,5 mana per draw + 6/6/6)
You know every secret he plays. So you cannot play around that? seriously?
keeping BGH/removal in hand for Avenge/Repenteance. MC is dead. before that you can kill another minions on the board for redemption if you have a ping, otherwise the noble sacrifice will trigger it. If he does not have another minion for avenge it's even easier. redemption goes to the 2/1 from Noble Sacrifice. MC will be dead.
Aggro Secret Paladin is so easy to counter. But that is something I will never understand, same problem was with the facehunter. Easy to counter, yet people are unable to do it.
I still have not managed to lose to the aggro version of the Paladin. I think the problem is that amount of casual playstyle in this game. Because in higher scenes and tournaments the secret aladin has such a low winrate. Midrange is way harder to deal with.
By the launch of TGT peopple used to make a lot of mistakes, but that doesn't happen anymore in any rank higher than 15. About 99% of the ladder know how to play around it.
The deck is very solid, even if you know the secrets. There is no way in hell it would make up almost 25% of the decks on rank 5 to legend if not.
I still have not managed to lose to the aggro version of the Paladin.
Everyone who even remotely understands how a card game works knows that this is nonsense. Even if playing a hard counter.
But posts like these crop on every discussion on a deck. GP threads are (were) filled with people who never lost to GP, aggro whines were filled with replies people who had never lost to a facehunter and so forth.
Either you people play at rank 19 and induce theory from single matches, or you flat out lie. Either way, you should all be ignored as authorites on the subject.
I still have not managed to lose to the aggro version of the Paladin.
Everyone who even remotely understands how a card game works knows that this is nonsense. Even if playing a hard counter.
But posts like these crop on every discussion on a deck. GP threads are (were) filled with people who never lost to GP, aggro whines were filled with replies people who had never lost to a facehunter and so forth.
Either you people play at rank 19 and induce theory from single matches, or you flat out lie. Either way, you should all be ignored as authorites on the subject.
Sad to say it, but it's the damn truth. I am myself playing a midrange Paladin since last season on ladder and I am tracking my games. The midrange version is thousand times stronger. If you can't play around their one strength...how are you acting on ladder at all? It's not even a secret paladin, as you know every secret once MC is played. You don't know which secret is played against a hunter or a mage. Even in the archetypes there are different versions playing different secrets. But all stronger secrets from the paladin are played. And you can easily influence the outcoming of the MC. Once he is history the game is won. Everything else in the deck is just laughable at. If they manage to get early Secretkeepers pushing up it could start dangerous. Beside that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Once again, that's why the secret paladin has a low winrate at tournaments.
I still have not managed to lose to the aggro version of the Paladin.
Everyone who even remotely understands how a card game works knows that this is nonsense. Even if playing a hard counter.
But posts like these crop on every discussion on a deck. GP threads are (were) filled with people who never lost to GP, aggro whines were filled with replies people who had never lost to a facehunter and so forth.
Either you people play at rank 19 and induce theory from single matches, or you flat out lie. Either way, you should all be ignored as authorites on the subject.
Sad to say it, but it's the damn truth. I am myself playing a midrange Paladin since last season on ladder and I am tracking my games. The midrange version is thousand times stronger. If you can't play around their one strength...how are you acting on ladder at all? It's not even a secret paladin, as you know every secret once MC is played. You don't know which secret is played against a hunter or a mage. Even in the archetypes there are different versions playing different secrets. But all stronger secrets from the paladin are played. And you can easily influence the outcoming of the MC. Once he is history the game is won. Everything else in the deck is just laughable at. If they manage to get early Secretkeepers pushing up it could start dangerous. Beside that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Once again, that's why the secret paladin has a low winrate at tournaments.
Mid-range pally has a good matchup vs secret pally, this is well known. That doesn't change much.
Again, there is no way secret pally is so popular at rank 5 to legend without being a very solid a deck, and also likely due to being very easy to play.
In my humble, the Mysterious Challenger is just too big of a tempo swing for a single card. Regardless of what the opponent does to "play around it", hes still going to have to sacrifice a LOT of resources to break the MC. If its then followed up by a Dr 7 and Tirion the next turns, theres simply nothing the opponent can do even if they do play perfectly and that is a problem. This season ive seen people on my friends list who has never been above rank 10 as long as ive had them on there, suddenly reaching rank 5+, all because of secret paladin.
My tip is that Mysterious Challenger is going to get nerfed somehow within the next few seasons.
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So whenever I start seeing a deck a lot on the ladder I like to play some variations of it to get a good feel for the deck and see if I can understand how it works. With the rise of Secret Paladin I figured I should play some games with it. Last season I was still stubbornly grinding Control Warrior wins, but I was seeing the deck often enough that it seemed like it would be worth trying to get a handle on it.
In playing I've noticed that there are a lot of situations where I win off the back of my opponent making awkward plays around my secrets, whether they come from MC or just from hand. I've been in the situation many times where I think "Well, if they do this right I just lose." and then they don't and it goes very well for me.
I'm making no comment here on whether this deck is OP or brainless or anything like that. I'm mostly interested in hearing from other people that have picked up the deck. Does it seem like people make the appropriate plays around the secrets? Do they consistently mess up? I'm curious, as it feels like my winrate with the deck would drop drastically if the majority of players had a better feel for the secrets, but I'd like to hear how other people feel from their own experiences.
Nothing doing, traveler.
I haven't played SPally that much, but noticed the same thing. When playing against SPally though, there are only a few things I tend to keep in mind when checking for, or trying to play around secrets:
The secrets easiest to predict are usually Noble Sac and Avenge (a redemption into minibot can be really annoying too, but it happens less frequently I'd say). So always make sure that you keep or have at least 3 damage from hand (avenge proc gives +2 health and most dudes have 1-2 health) and think cleverly what to attack first with in case of get down.
It's a steamtrain after Challenger gets played, but you know most of the time there'll be a Repentance in there too.
I feel like the match-up is winnable if you play around those and try to answer them as soon as they proc. The other secrets (comp spirit and redemption) can be played around more easily.
That's just my two cents on the topic. :)
Any decent player can play around the secrets.
By the launch of TGT peopple used to make a lot of mistakes, but that doesn't happen anymore in any rank higher than 15. About 99% of the ladder know how to play around it.
Secret paladin isnt a top tier deck imo. It's doing so well b/c ppl don't really know how to handle it.
once more people get used to the order of the secrets it'll b less and less popular. As of now I find the deck overrated. My win rate vs it is higher than my win rate vs shaman (dunno why but I'm bad vs shaman, only 55% win record against shaman)
I play the deck and I can tell you people know how to play around the Christmas tree of secrets well. But sometimes it doesn't matter as you're already winning by so much. Mixed results on playing them one at a time. If you don't make obvious what it is, they can play around the wrong things and get punished for it.
This is sort of a misstatement. There's a difference between knowing how to play around them and being able to. Some decks are ill-equipped to be able to kill a 2/1, then deal with a 9/8 (or more) and a 2/1 again while also having their first minion reduced to 1 health on ETB. You need to have a lot of resources available to you to deal with the board state post X-Mas tree OR just still not care and go face.
Balancing busted cards version 1.0.
Personally, I think I know how to play around them. I bet most other players do too. The better secrets are well known after a bunch of games against them so it's fairly easy to predict but not prevent...
My usual problems are:
1. They start with a great curve almost always, ergo; I have a board disadvantage (or none at all) before Dr.6.
2. I dont have the removal by the time Dr. 6 comes in.
3. I answer the Dr. 6 round, they drop Dr. 7 / 8
4. Divine favor.
It doesn't matter if you have any kind of board. It's just too much value, and a ton of damage. With just one token it's much harder to deal with all the secrets and the value snowballs. However, it matters a lot if your board is empty. It's easy to diffuse the tree of secrets on an empty board: play one low cost minion, attack once to face and BGH on Dr. 6. A good player will already know what the common secrets are and keep count of them. But the best players play around your swing cards like Dr. 6, Divine Favor, and Kings.
It's impossible to know what secret they played and play around it. for example 2 minions on board, you can either kill one and give an Avenge buff to the other or kill one and then it could come back from Redemption (especially troublesome with minibot or Shredder). You could argue to just ignore both and go face, but this is rarely a wise move unless you are already way ahead on board.
I think everyone knows how the paladin secrets work by now, but it doesn't really matter, you get waaaayyy to much for 6 mana.
Draw 3-to 5 cards and give them a thurissan reduction effect its pretty much impossible to paly around.
This is true. Even if you know how to play around them, depending on how many cards you have in your hand or whether you have initative or not matters a lot.
People just assume they have like 7-10 mana avalivble and 7 cards to chose from when procing the secrets. Sometimes the Christmas tree lights up and you have like "3" cards in hand and a weak or no board due to battling of other threats. So... you can't always play around them even if you know how.
This should be stated more.
Nightblade Argent Lance Flame Imp
Argent Watchman Argent Squire Frost Giant
Aviana Hogger Snipe Sea Giant
Can be played around but seriously dr6 on turn 6 followed by turn 7 boom and turn 8 tirion is just hard to deal with
Face is the place,never trade
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You know every secret he plays. So you cannot play around that? seriously?
keeping BGH/removal in hand for Avenge/Repenteance. MC is dead. before that you can kill another minions on the board for redemption if you have a ping, otherwise the noble sacrifice will trigger it. If he does not have another minion for avenge it's even easier. redemption goes to the 2/1 from Noble Sacrifice. MC will be dead.
Aggro Secret Paladin is so easy to counter.
But that is something I will never understand, same problem was with the facehunter. Easy to counter, yet people are unable to do it.
I still have not managed to lose to the aggro version of the Paladin. I think the problem is that amount of casual playstyle in this game. Because in higher scenes and tournaments the secret aladin has such a low winrate. Midrange is way harder to deal with.
The deck is very solid, even if you know the secrets. There is no way in hell it would make up almost 25% of the decks on rank 5 to legend if not.
Everyone who even remotely understands how a card game works knows that this is nonsense. Even if playing a hard counter.
But posts like these crop on every discussion on a deck. GP threads are (were) filled with people who never lost to GP, aggro whines were filled with replies people who had never lost to a facehunter and so forth.
Either you people play at rank 19 and induce theory from single matches, or you flat out lie. Either way, you should all be ignored as authorites on the subject.
Sad to say it, but it's the damn truth. I am myself playing a midrange Paladin since last season on ladder and I am tracking my games. The midrange version is thousand times stronger. If you can't play around their one strength...how are you acting on ladder at all? It's not even a secret paladin, as you know every secret once MC is played. You don't know which secret is played against a hunter or a mage. Even in the archetypes there are different versions playing different secrets. But all stronger secrets from the paladin are played. And you can easily influence the outcoming of the MC. Once he is history the game is won. Everything else in the deck is just laughable at. If they manage to get early Secretkeepers pushing up it could start dangerous. Beside that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Once again, that's why the secret paladin has a low winrate at tournaments.
Mid-range pally has a good matchup vs secret pally, this is well known. That doesn't change much.
Again, there is no way secret pally is so popular at rank 5 to legend without being a very solid a deck, and also likely due to being very easy to play.
In my humble, the Mysterious Challenger is just too big of a tempo swing for a single card. Regardless of what the opponent does to "play around it", hes still going to have to sacrifice a LOT of resources to break the MC. If its then followed up by a Dr 7 and Tirion the next turns, theres simply nothing the opponent can do even if they do play perfectly and that is a problem. This season ive seen people on my friends list who has never been above rank 10 as long as ive had them on there, suddenly reaching rank 5+, all because of secret paladin.
My tip is that Mysterious Challenger is going to get nerfed somehow within the next few seasons.