Something I've always wondered: Why doesn't Hammer of Wrath cost 3 Instead of 4? 3 damage and a card seems too expensive for 4, plus pally already has too many 4 drops. If you look at other class cards such as the druid's wrath which does 3 damage for 2, or frostbolt, lightning bolt, etc...putting hammer at 4 doesn't make much sense, especially since pally has always needed more ways to deal with early stuff and turn 4 is too late. Being able to do 3 damage on turn 3 or even coin a hammer on turn 2 would really help pally quite a bit.
Because it draws a card and drawing cards is really good?
Yes, but is drawing a card worth 2 extra mana? Frostbolt does 3 damage AND freezes, yet it only costs 2. So 3 damage and a card seems it should only cost 3.
The card draw is worth more than you're giving it credit for. Druid's wrath draws a card as well, but only if you do one damage to a minion instead of 3. That's what you're paying in exchange for the card advantage. The three damage is worth 2 mana and the card draw is worth 2 mana. I suppose they could buff it to 3 because it's not going to break the game, but 4 mana is the correct cost for what that card does.
Generally a card draw is considered between 1 and 2 mana in terms of value on a card. Wrath to draw a card/shiv are both 2 mana cards. Dealing 1 damage is a 0 mana spell effect (from moonfire) so these cards are paying 2 mana to draw a card. Mortal coil, as a contrast, only costs 1 mana but has specific conditions set on the card draw effects.
Hammer of Wrath is a 3 damage freely targeted spell so it's akin to wrath/frostbolt. The lack of a conditional draw indicates that it should probably cost 2 for the draw effect. Novice engineer has a 1/1 body (0 mana value when compared to wisp) and draws a card unconditionally and costs 2.
The other thing to keep in mind is that different classes have different standards. Compare Fireball to Mortal Strike. Both spells cost 4 mana. Fireball is basic and always deals 6 damage, mortal strike is rare and deals 4 damage (or 6 if you're below 12 health).
arcane shot/ holy smite = 2 dmg for 1 mana = 1 dmg for .5 mana
arcane intellect = 1 card for 1.5 mana
3 dmg roughly = 1.5 mana
+
1 card for 1.5 mana
= 3 mana spell
blizzard pls :P
You have forgotten one resource when trying to calculate this, each card also counts as a resource. So look at sprint it is 7 mana for draw 4, but hang on arcane intellect x 2 would draw 4 and it only cost 6. Due to you combining effects and the card having more it ends up costing more. Look at wrath, naturally it will be slightly weaker due to the choose one aspect, but you can get one daMage and draw a card for 2 Mana. At 4 mana you may think oh let's double it but then you don't account for the extra card draw from having 2 but the addition of an extra damage makes it somewhat balanced.
certaint cards have a true value at about 3.5-3.7 (when you factor in what everything is worth) they are rounded up in mana cost to 4 to prevent the card been auto includes in every deck. Take novice engineer, at a 1/2 it's value was a bit more that 2 mana, and in the early beta it had become an auto include, so to try and make it not an auto include they made it a 1/1 which moved its true value slightly below 2. As a result it does not see as much play as it used to.
Lets have some fun with more maths shall we:
a wisp costs 0 for a 1/1
a novice engineer costs 2 for a 1/1 but you get to draw a card
so we can assume draw a card in conjunction with another aspect in fact costs 2 mana
now let's look at a wrath, it costs 2 for 3 damage and another aspect to the card.
so what we have is drawing a card is 2 MANA
and dealing 3 damage is roughly 1.6-1.8 MANA
when you look at card resource for combined effects it usually costs about .5 or so mana.
so 2 + 1.6-1.8 + .5= 4.1-4.3
the cards value is fair when you account for cards them selves holding a value
The mana cost for drawing a card isn't consistent for each comparison.
Azure Drake is Ogre Magi + draw for 1 extra mana.
Ancient of Lore is a 5/5 (4.5 mana) and draws 2 cards at 1.25 mana each. (and is actually even better since it combines these into 1 card)
Fan of Knives is Arcane Explosion + draw for 1 extra mana.
There is no linear curve to project mana cost for card draw, but since Hammer of Wrath is a class card you would expect it to be on the better side of that curve.
I guess even if it was 2 damage and a draw for 3 mana it would be more useful. As it is now, it's just yet another pally card that rarely sees play in constructed.
The mana cost for drawing a card isn't consistent for each comparison.
Azure Drake is Ogre Magi + draw for 1 extra mana.
Ancient of Lore is a 5/5 (4.5 mana) and draws 2 cards at 1.75 mana each. (and is actually even better since it combines these into 1 card)
Fan of Knives is Arcane Explosion + draw for 1 extra mana.
There is no linear curve to project mana cost for card draw, but since Hammer of Wrath is a class card you would expect it to be on the better side of that curve.
guys seriously this is silly, 1 mana= 2 damage, 1.5 mana= draw a card, 1 mana= conjoining two effects on a single card.
Therefore you have 1.5 mana for 3 damage 1.5 mana for the draw and 1 mana for doing them both at once for a total of 4 mana. Yes that's right you have to pay additional mana value for additional effects on cards, that or the card has to carry a drawback/condition since Hammer of Wrath has neither a drawback (such as "being limited to minion targets") or a condition ( such as "draw only if target is killed") we pay 1 extra mana for it.
Comparing it to other 3 damage spells seems silly because they ALL have unique circumstances. Arcane Missiles ,randomized, Wrath you are either getting full value from the cycle or you "overpay" for 3 damage ahead of curve, Lightning Bolt overloads for 1. Frostbolt is perhaps the most straightforward comparison until you remember pallies have access to great weapons and Mages are entirely reliant on their spells. hmm any more? Sinister Strike is face only so conditional.
seeing Hammer of Wrath reworked could be nice but there is a reason it costs what it does.
It's a little more complicated than that IMO. Because it does both the effects of Wrath (and is able to target face), it's worth more than the "simple" stat counts. The value is probably closer to 3.5 than 4 but I assume they considered that 3 was too little for the card effect (deals 3 damage, cycles itself)
The real problem of this card is that it's on the same value spot as some of the most important paladin cards (Truesilver Champion, Consecration) so it doesn't see play because you can find card draw/direct damage in other cards.
Now consider this: would you play HoW if it was 3 mana: deal 2 damage, draw a card (which would probably be closer to actual value for what the card does)?
So, should we expect an 8 mana 7 dmg draw card and a 10 mana 9 dmg draw card soon?
Or a 0 mana 1 heal draw card! OMG! OP! -2 mana (like an Innervate) 3 heal draw card! OMFG! I'm onto something here! -4 mana (Mega-Innervate (if there can be a Mega-Windfury why not a mega-Innervate?)) 5 heal draw a card! The possibilities are endless and OP!
Something I've always wondered: Why doesn't Hammer of Wrath cost 3 Instead of 4? 3 damage and a card seems too expensive for 4, plus pally already has too many 4 drops. If you look at other class cards such as the druid's wrath which does 3 damage for 2, or frostbolt, lightning bolt, etc...putting hammer at 4 doesn't make much sense, especially since pally has always needed more ways to deal with early stuff and turn 4 is too late. Being able to do 3 damage on turn 3 or even coin a hammer on turn 2 would really help pally quite a bit.
Because it draws a card and drawing cards is really good?
arcane shot/ holy smite = 2 dmg for 1 mana = 1 dmg for .5 mana
arcane intellect = 1 card for 1.5 mana
3 dmg roughly = 1.5 mana
+
1 card for 1.5 mana
= 3 mana spell
blizzard pls :P
Yes, but is drawing a card worth 2 extra mana? Frostbolt does 3 damage AND freezes, yet it only costs 2. So 3 damage and a card seems it should only cost 3.
It all comes down to math really.
3 damage = 2 mana (see Wrath and Frostbolt)
1 Card = 2 mana (see Wisp + Card = Novice Engineer, Moonfire + Card = Shiv)
The card draw is worth more than you're giving it credit for. Druid's wrath draws a card as well, but only if you do one damage to a minion instead of 3. That's what you're paying in exchange for the card advantage. The three damage is worth 2 mana and the card draw is worth 2 mana. I suppose they could buff it to 3 because it's not going to break the game, but 4 mana is the correct cost for what that card does.
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Generally a card draw is considered between 1 and 2 mana in terms of value on a card. Wrath to draw a card/shiv are both 2 mana cards. Dealing 1 damage is a 0 mana spell effect (from moonfire) so these cards are paying 2 mana to draw a card. Mortal coil, as a contrast, only costs 1 mana but has specific conditions set on the card draw effects.
Hammer of Wrath is a 3 damage freely targeted spell so it's akin to wrath/frostbolt. The lack of a conditional draw indicates that it should probably cost 2 for the draw effect. Novice engineer has a 1/1 body (0 mana value when compared to wisp) and draws a card unconditionally and costs 2.
The other thing to keep in mind is that different classes have different standards. Compare Fireball to Mortal Strike. Both spells cost 4 mana. Fireball is basic and always deals 6 damage, mortal strike is rare and deals 4 damage (or 6 if you're below 12 health).
You have forgotten one resource when trying to calculate this, each card also counts as a resource. So look at sprint it is 7 mana for draw 4, but hang on arcane intellect x 2 would draw 4 and it only cost 6. Due to you combining effects and the card having more it ends up costing more. Look at wrath, naturally it will be slightly weaker due to the choose one aspect, but you can get one daMage and draw a card for 2 Mana. At 4 mana you may think oh let's double it but then you don't account for the extra card draw from having 2 but the addition of an extra damage makes it somewhat balanced.
certaint cards have a true value at about 3.5-3.7 (when you factor in what everything is worth) they are rounded up in mana cost to 4 to prevent the card been auto includes in every deck. Take novice engineer, at a 1/2 it's value was a bit more that 2 mana, and in the early beta it had become an auto include, so to try and make it not an auto include they made it a 1/1 which moved its true value slightly below 2. As a result it does not see as much play as it used to.
Lets have some fun with more maths shall we:
a wisp costs 0 for a 1/1
a novice engineer costs 2 for a 1/1 but you get to draw a card
so we can assume draw a card in conjunction with another aspect in fact costs 2 mana
now let's look at a wrath, it costs 2 for 3 damage and another aspect to the card.
so what we have is drawing a card is 2 MANA
and dealing 3 damage is roughly 1.6-1.8 MANA
when you look at card resource for combined effects it usually costs about .5 or so mana.
so 2 + 1.6-1.8 + .5= 4.1-4.3
the cards value is fair when you account for cards them selves holding a value
Shiv: 2 mana 1 dmg draw card
Hammer: 4 mana 3 dmg draw card
Starfire: 6 mana 5 dmg draw card
Do you see a pattern here?
The mana cost for drawing a card isn't consistent for each comparison.
Azure Drake is Ogre Magi + draw for 1 extra mana.
Ancient of Lore is a 5/5 (4.5 mana) and draws 2 cards at 1.25 mana each. (and is actually even better since it combines these into 1 card)
Fan of Knives is Arcane Explosion + draw for 1 extra mana.
There is no linear curve to project mana cost for card draw, but since Hammer of Wrath is a class card you would expect it to be on the better side of that curve.
edit: math
I guess even if it was 2 damage and a draw for 3 mana it would be more useful. As it is now, it's just yet another pally card that rarely sees play in constructed.
Yes.
guys seriously this is silly, 1 mana= 2 damage, 1.5 mana= draw a card, 1 mana= conjoining two effects on a single card.
Therefore you have 1.5 mana for 3 damage 1.5 mana for the draw and 1 mana for doing them both at once for a total of 4 mana. Yes that's right you have to pay additional mana value for additional effects on cards, that or the card has to carry a drawback/condition since Hammer of Wrath has neither a drawback (such as "being limited to minion targets") or a condition ( such as "draw only if target is killed") we pay 1 extra mana for it.
Comparing it to other 3 damage spells seems silly because they ALL have unique circumstances. Arcane Missiles ,randomized, Wrath you are either getting full value from the cycle or you "overpay" for 3 damage ahead of curve, Lightning Bolt overloads for 1. Frostbolt is perhaps the most straightforward comparison until you remember pallies have access to great weapons and Mages are entirely reliant on their spells. hmm any more? Sinister Strike is face only so conditional.
seeing Hammer of Wrath reworked could be nice but there is a reason it costs what it does.
"Those who do not step forth and decide the meta, will only be ruled by it"
Targetable direct damage is expensive for a paladin, it's not their style?
It's a little more complicated than that IMO. Because it does both the effects of Wrath (and is able to target face), it's worth more than the "simple" stat counts. The value is probably closer to 3.5 than 4 but I assume they considered that 3 was too little for the card effect (deals 3 damage, cycles itself)
The real problem of this card is that it's on the same value spot as some of the most important paladin cards (Truesilver Champion, Consecration) so it doesn't see play because you can find card draw/direct damage in other cards.
Now consider this: would you play HoW if it was 3 mana: deal 2 damage, draw a card (which would probably be closer to actual value for what the card does)?
So, should we expect an 8 mana 7 dmg draw card and a 10 mana 9 dmg draw card soon?
Or a 0 mana 1 heal draw card! OMG! OP! -2 mana (like an Innervate) 3 heal draw card! OMFG! I'm onto something here! -4 mana (Mega-Innervate (if there can be a Mega-Windfury why not a mega-Innervate?)) 5 heal draw a card! The possibilities are endless and OP!
Sorry, I saw the pattern and went overboard...
I'd like to see it dropped to 2 mana, and only draw a card if it kills the minion, so that it's like the WoW ability as a "finisher".
Wow, that's an amazing suggestion! make it 3 mana tho, draw a card if the target is killed.
The dream
2 mana deal 3 damage and draw a card? I know pally is not a strong class, but we are not breaking the game for them.
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