I feel like this deck has some potential but still it seems so draw dependent and lacking something.
Let's discuss how to build this. And please refrain from posting comments like 'corrupted healbot is teh suxx0r'.
Edit. Taking into account all the posts so far in this thread, I think that we have the core placed pretty well by consensus.
I tried out all the cards suggested in this thread rotating between the cards suggested. I had a 62% win-rate from the start of the reset to rank 6. (the stats can be viewed on page 4) This is not particularly impressive but tells that the deck has potential overall.
the final version I settled with is this one with a 71% winrate, and I'm fairly certain that this is the best version.
Most notable exclusions are: Lay on hands, you want to control the board early game and then drop threats. Second kodo, you' probably lose if holding two kodos and they don't get value. Twilight summoner, this card just doesn't fit in paladin if the opponent plays well.
Yes, that is exactly the weakness which should be targeted.
1 humility in addition to the aldor's should be enough to counter the aggro shaman. This should not make the deck run out of steam as is. If we were to add the second humility then we should probably also add draw like solemn vigil or acolyte.
It's possible to take it two directions, to either add more cycling and more reactive cards. Or build the curve better to not need the extra draw beyond the 1 lay on hands. This would make the deck susceptible to drawing equality/doomsayer at the right time.
there are 6 slots remaining in the build.
from my experience Infested Tauren has been bad, and twilight summoner... I have always felt that I wanted to be ahead a little bit when i drop that card and somehow never found the time to drop a 1/1 at around 4 mana. I might be thinking it wrong though.
chillmaw fits because you don't actually want the deathrattle to go off, but vs. aggressive decks you want to be able to drop N'Zoth as soon as possible and a 6/6 taunt respawn makes that possible. Chillmaw has worked surprisingly well for me
I don't think that this is the direction to take the deck.
Ragnaros is a very random card to add to the deck, it isn't lacking in lategame.
As paladin you cannot afford to play loot hoarders on turn 2. What are you going to do against Tunnel Trogg, mana wurm, Twilight Elder, Darkshire Councilman. Stampeding Kodo seems to slow, although I haven't tried it for a couple of years now. I don't really think you need to deal with the 1 attack minions left behind.
Azure Drake would be a high mana cost cycle, the spell damage seems irrelevant, although thinking about it there are a lot of 3 health minions right now.
I agree that you don't need to put more deathrattle than is needed, I'm trying to scrape the deck down to the bare minimums. Forgive me for saying it but your deck seems to be not even rank 5 material.
Don't agree at all. Would you rather run Huge Toads to 'counter' these cards? You are a control deck, you don't run powerful early game creatures, you stall and draw early game and help yourself with Truesilver Champion which is a core card to help you ever get on board. No 2 drop contests Imp Gang Boss and Darkshire Councilman on it's own, you need some help from your deck. Also you have Doomsayers to drop for some crazy tempo swings vs aggro or a soft 7 health taunt. Acolytes feel like a gamble and generally are too slow, die for free and draw you 1 card like 70% of the time. They are good with Pyros, but you use them with equalities most of the time and can hardly ever combo those two during the early game. Azure Drakes are too slow and only good in slower MUps where you shouldn't even have problems. This is a midrange card, not a control card.
So generally it's either Loot Hoarder(s), Acolyte of Pains or Solemn Vigil for the card draw which you need at least one of with two of the latter costing >2 mana (you Can play Solemn for 0 but not on t2)
I think people are trying to hard to get max bodies with N'Zoth, the Corruptor instead of using him to simply outlast an opponent through solid attrition. Cards like Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner are only good if you are on par with your opponent or ahead. They are trash from behind and kind of just win-more by the time you get N'Zoth, the Corruptor off with max value. You really only need the N'Zoth trigger to bring back your legendary minions to generally secure a win, which means that your trash Deathrattle cards are kind of just unecessary.
I like thinking of N'Zoth, the Corruptor decks as control decks looking to just reanimate your legendary minions and get value out of everything else beforehand.
To that end, Loot Hoarder is great at helping you sift through your deck for stabilizers, and helps you keep an aggressive board down in the meantime. You need things that let you play low to the ground and the Hoarder is a great choice. Between having 2 Equality, 2 Consecration, and 2 Wild Pyromancer - you can deal with things like Tunnel Trogg, Mana Wyrm, and Twilight Elder easily enough. Same with Darkshire Councilman. You should use Loot Hoarder to manage the board and get you to the sweep so you can out value the mid and late game with your other cards.
Doomsayer simply has not been good for me at all. I would rather run Tuskarr Jouster to recoup life and put decent stats on the board and let things like Loot Hoarder work on getting you there.
Personally, since I dislike Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner, while also being on the fence about Infested Tauren, I think getting in some C'Thun action helps make up for it. In Priest, you get sweet cards like Museum Curator and Shifting Shade to still make your N'Zoth Triggers get you some good reanimation numbers, but I am not willing to run marginal cards to make that work in Paladin. 5-6 Targets is all you really need to get N'Zoth off late game after attrition is all said and done. Getting C'Thun in there for a bit of value means you can not only out value the late game with N'Zoth, but also get more in the early game with something like Twilight Elder while adding C'Thun to your late game plan.
Take this all with a grain of salt, I stopped playing N'Zoth Paladin to try N'Zoth Priest and the issues mentioned above were also becoming evident in Priest.
I think people are trying to hard to get max bodies with N'Zoth, the Corruptor instead of using him to simply outlast an opponent through solid attrition. Cards like Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner are only good if you are on par with your opponent or ahead. They are trash from behind and kind of just win-more by the time you get N'Zoth, the Corruptor off with max value. You really only need the N'Zoth trigger to bring back your legendary minions to generally secure a win, which means that your trash Deathrattle cards are kind of just unecessary.
I like thinking of N'Zoth, the Corruptor decks as control decks looking to just reanimate your legendary minions and get value out of everything else beforehand.[snip]
I agree with everything you said except the bit about Doomsayer not working; Doomsayer always does something, whether it's 2 mana: restore 7 life (or armor, if you're still at full health), 2 mana: wipe the board and make your opponent waste mana (ideal) or 2 mana: Save Tirion/Sylvanas/insert deathrattle minion here from a silence. Meanwhile loot hoarder either gets pinged or murdered for free by a 2/3 minion on turn 2. Sure, you get a card, but Doomsayer is a powerful tool if you don't mind not getting the ideal outcome every time. Hell, sometimes it even takes a burn spell, which is actually almost as good as killing a minion. Control decks aren't meant to "put decent stats on board", you're meant to clear their board and heal afterwards. Turn 5 is often too late to get that 7 health back, especially in matchups where you're even likely to get the heal at all. I still run 2 Tuskarrs, but not in place of Doomsayers.
I agree about the trend of people trying to get too many deathrattle minions from N'Zoth though. Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoners are just not right for a control deck. Maybe midrange, not control. Neither is C'thun, C'thun is actually just a slow midrange deck, not control, and trying to fit that into a N'Zoth control paladin shell just makes a whole lotta nothing that doesn't do anything quite well enough to win. C'thun won't get huge like it does in Druid, N'Zoth doesn't spawn a full board, and the control aspect doesn't get enough removal/healing to survive. Personally, I play a Healadin with N'Zoth as a value card rather than a finisher (aside from enemies who concede from the sheer amount of value I just got). No need to have 30 damage on board after N'Zoth when I'll probably never run out of healing.
Sorry for the long probably-ramble, and trust me, I did take what you said with a grain of salt (it seems like you're wanting to make a slow midrange paladin with more on-curve C'thun minions rather than pure healing/wiping control, which is fine), I just don't feel that that's the direction the deck needs to go to be successful in the meta. Paladin didn't get much C'Thun synergy.
Edit: clarified some things to sound the least rude possible, I really want to keep this civil, this thread has some great discussion on it
Doomsayer can be a total liability draw a fair amount of the time. Much like when people get super salty and only remember the times that RNG bit them in the ass, people only really seem to remember the times that Doomsayer was completely clutch instead of a fairly dead draw. I don't think the card is utter garbage and it is not something I would say is completely unplayable - just something I would say is suspect at times and up for consideration as to how playable it actually is.
Not sure how you would consider it slow midrange, you are swapping lackluster Deathrattle cards for more relevant stabilizing tools and throwing in another late game finisher... but at the end of the day I think it is nothing more than semantics when I say control and you say slow midrange.
You really do not need a 20/20 C'Thun to get value out of your 10 mana, even a 10/10 that blasts for 10 damage at a 10 mana premium - is pretty clutch after you have stabilized a board.
In my opinion The Skeleton Knight is a must have in this deck. This deck runs many expensive cards therefore you will win 70% of the draws. When played on tempo- you will alt least get 2-3 Knights out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor.
The next card i cannot imagine this deck to work is: Enter the Coliseum. Especially powerful against evolve shaman- after evolve is cast.
Not sure about: Sir Finley Mrrgglton. Depending on the ability given you can go up or down- don't like the rng...
Ok there has been great praise for Loot Hoarders and much hate for Corrupted Healbot. I have always thought in my games that the healbot was mvp and that the downside was irrelevant. I will take it out of the core for the time being
The addition of loot hoarders obviously makes the good matchups much worse so at the very least it should make some of the bad matchups better. In theory I can't see how falling more behind on tempo, to cycle cards, addresses the most notable issues. Surely you would always mulligan them away from your opening hand for Doomsayers, Truesilver Champions or Equalityies?
In my opinion The Skeleton Knight is a must have in this deck. This deck runs many expensive cards therefore you will win 70% of the draws. When played on tempo- you will alt least get 2-3 Knights out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor.
The next card i cannot imagine this deck to work is: Enter the Coliseum. Especially powerful against evolve shaman- after evolve is cast.
Not sure about: Sir Finley Mrrgglton. Depending on the ability given you can go up or down- don't like the rng...
The way I like to build decks is so that they don't rely on a specific card to win, I should be able to win some games without the need to draw N'Zoth. The Skeleton Knight doesn't really seem to fit that mindset. Although the value potential could open up the possibility to play stuff like double Humility.
It wouldn't make the bad matchups better on it's own though. I just wrote the card off, but will test it out.
Enter the Coliseum seems worthless without humility. Especially in a meta were playing a 7/7 on 4 is allowed.
Actually thinking about it more, the synergies might be there... This will need testing.
I have tried a bit of control pala the past few days and I must say that I'm not at all impressed with Corrupted Healbot. It just seems like a bad inclusion to try to force more value out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor. I mean which decks does it even do well against? It's obviously terrible against aggro and while the opponents heros health is not all that relevant for a control deck, a potential 32 extra healing actually is relevant in a lot of cases. In any case, I would definitely not say that it's part of the "core" of the deck. Neither would I say that 2x Forbidden Healing is. One copy, sure, but not necessarily two.
Doomsayer, however, is amazing. There's barely any silence in the meta, it's great to stop aggro in its tracks. It's also a great way to gain initiative in pretty much any matchup after a board clear. Worst case scenario, it's almost always a heal for at least 7. I would never take them out.
Keep the doomsayers, the card is amazing in this deck and held together a lot of my games. Either through preemptive use on an empty board to delay opponents plays or weakening them through soaking damage from aggro decks. That allows you to drop your own big minions on your turn and is pretty important for a deck this slow. I'd call it a must have.
I have tried a bit of control pala the past few days and I must say that I'm not at all impressed with Corrupted Healbot. It just seems like a bad inclusion to try to force more value out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor. I mean which decks does it even do well against? It's obviously terrible against aggro and while the opponents heros health is not all that relevant for a control deck, a potential 32 extra healing actually is relevant in a lot of cases. In any case, I would definitely not say that it's part of the "core" of the deck. Neither would I say that 2x Forbidden Healing is. One copy, sure, but not necessarily two.
Doomsayer, however, is amazing. There's barely any silence in the meta, it's great to stop aggro in its tracks. It's also a great way to gain initiative in pretty much any matchup after a board clear. Worst case scenario, it's almost always a heal for at least 7. I would never take them out.
The healbots were removed from the core in light of others comments. Although I will say from my experience they have been good. Playing a 6/6 on 5 into sylvanas or cairne on 6 will put any deck on the backfoot. From the looks of it, I might need to reconsider my perspective on the card.
Cutting a Forbidden Healing is like cutting a fireball from freeze mage. The idea won't be considered.
Mixing dragons and N'Zoth is an interesting idea plus it gives a great excuse to play Chillmaw
However the dragon core is subject to more constraints than N'zoth and therefore we would be adding N'zoth to a dragon deck and not dragons to an N'zoth deck.
I have tried a bit of control pala the past few days and I must say that I'm not at all impressed with Corrupted Healbot. It just seems like a bad inclusion to try to force more value out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor. I mean which decks does it even do well against? It's obviously terrible against aggro and while the opponents heros health is not all that relevant for a control deck, a potential 32 extra healing actually is relevant in a lot of cases. In any case, I would definitely not say that it's part of the "core" of the deck. Neither would I say that 2x Forbidden Healing is. One copy, sure, but not necessarily two.
Doomsayer, however, is amazing. There's barely any silence in the meta, it's great to stop aggro in its tracks. It's also a great way to gain initiative in pretty much any matchup after a board clear. Worst case scenario, it's almost always a heal for at least 7. I would never take them out.
The healbots were removed from the core in light of others comments. Although I will say from my experience they have been good. Playing a 6/6 on 5 into sylvanas or cairne on 6 will put any deck on the backfoot. From the looks of it, I might need to reconsider my perspective on the card.
Cutting a Forbidden Healing is like cutting a fireball from freeze mage. The idea won't be considered.
Cutting a forbidden healing is of course nothing like cutting a fireball from freeze mage. Forbidden healing is not in any way a win condition. If you want to run two, then fine but, making obviously erroneous analogies is neither necessary nor helpful.
Good thread, I'm in the same thought process of defining core cards for N'Zoth Paladin.
My two cents on a few points that have been discussed.
- 2xDoomsayer are vital IMHO. Very flexible, plus they synergize well with your AoE.
- A bit of card draw is needed. Solemn Vigil does wonders with Doomsayer and AoE so you should run one. I'm open to the possibility of running a couple Loot Hoarders, still haven't tried it.
- 1xForbidden Healing is necessary, not so sure about the second one.
- I agree with the idea of not overcommitting to greedy deathrattle minions. On turns 4-5 I often need to answer the aggression, Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner don't provide that. I like Infested Tauren 'cause he soaks 3 damages. Also, when you bring him back with N'Zoth he'll protect your big minions and help you initiate the trading game if the opponent has board. Still testing though, not sure if I'll include him, it's my biggest doubt at the moment.
- 1xHumility and 1xStampeding Kodo are close to being core cards IMHO, not necessarily for the combo and especially if the meta is fast.
- 1 slot should be given to a key tech like The Black Knight or Harrison Jones and I'd consider an additional taunt (Sen'jin, Psychotron or even Chillmaw if you're a bit greedy).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Life is OP.
Please Blizzard nerf Life.
Life banned from standard format confirmed. Indirect Death buff.
I have tried a bit of control pala the past few days and I must say that I'm not at all impressed with Corrupted Healbot. It just seems like a bad inclusion to try to force more value out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor. I mean which decks does it even do well against? It's obviously terrible against aggro and while the opponents heros health is not all that relevant for a control deck, a potential 32 extra healing actually is relevant in a lot of cases. In any case, I would definitely not say that it's part of the "core" of the deck. Neither would I say that 2x Forbidden Healing is. One copy, sure, but not necessarily two.
Doomsayer, however, is amazing. There's barely any silence in the meta, it's great to stop aggro in its tracks. It's also a great way to gain initiative in pretty much any matchup after a board clear. Worst case scenario, it's almost always a heal for at least 7. I would never take them out.
The healbots were removed from the core in light of others comments. Although I will say from my experience they have been good. Playing a 6/6 on 5 into sylvanas or cairne on 6 will put any deck on the backfoot. From the looks of it, I might need to reconsider my perspective on the card.
Cutting a Forbidden Healing is like cutting a fireball from freeze mage. The idea won't be considered.
Cutting a forbidden healing is of course nothing like cutting a fireball from freeze mage. Forbidden healing is not in any way a win condition. If you want to run two, then fine but, making obviously erroneous analogies is neither necessary nor helpful.
I believe Forbidden healing is a win condition on it's own against a wide array of decks.
The suggestion wasn't meant to be ridiculing, you can cut a fireball in favor of malygos for example. same as you can cut a forbidden healing. But it should still be considered part of the core.
As a matter of fact I think that it's part of the core of most paladin decks.
One is necessary for sure, I'm not arguing that at all. Having two though I feel is more about consistency in drawing one when you need it, rather than two actually being needed. I don't think it's comparable in any way to cutting a fireball for maly, there are other more sensible cards to cut for that.
I don't see two copies, actually used, being all that helpful in anything except fatigue matchups and possibly against something like face shaman. Against freeze mage for instance, it's very unlikely to make a difference. This is going to be primarily an OTK matchup for freeze mage anyway.
I could be wrong of course, I'm just not feeling two copies being essential.
Good thread, I'm in the same thought process of defining core cards for N'Zoth Paladin.
My two cents on a few points that have been discussed.
- 2xDoomsayer are vital IMHO. Very flexible, plus they synergize well with your AoE.
- A bit of card draw is needed. Solemn Vigil does wonders with Doomsayer and AoE so you should run one. I'm open to the possibility of running a couple Loot Hoarders, still haven't tried it.
- 1xForbidden Healing is necessary, not so sure about the second one.
- I agree with the idea of not overcommitting to greedy deathrattle minions. On turns 4-5 I often need to answer the aggression, Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner don't provide that. I like Infested Tauren 'cause he soaks 3 damages. Also, when you bring him back with N'Zoth he'll protect your big minions and help you initiate the trading game if the opponent has board. Still testing though, not sure if I'll include him, it's my biggest doubt at the moment.
- 1xHumility and 1xStampeding Kodo are close to being core cards IMHO, not necessarily for the combo and especially if the meta is fast.
- 1 slot should be given to a key tech like The Black Knight or Harrison Jones and I'd consider an additional taunt (Sen'jin, Psychotron or even Chillmaw if you're a bit greedy).
I play with double solemn vigil myself and think that it's great. I've seen others cut it so it's a debate whether it's core or not. Might be.
So far mid game minions like twilight summoner and corrupted healbot have disliked by most, I just always feel like turn 5 is a big struggle for this deck, It seems like the turn where the games are lost the most. Infested tauren is right at the margin of fitting.
Humility is a must have card right now, especially against turn 4 7/7 faceless whatever. But is it core?
The black knight is great and I used it for a period, but I feel like it only targets matchups which are already favored.
The tech card I have been wanting to fit the most is acidic swamp ooze. This deck is very unfavored vs pirate aggro warrior and the weapons you would want to remove are earlier than harrison would allow. Also milling your deck vs. doomhammer might not be ideal.
I'm testing psych-o-tron at them moment even though I am ashamed since I bashed that card hard pre release.
One is necessary for sure, I'm not arguing that at all. Having two though I feel is more about consistency in drawing one when you need it, rather than two actually being needed. I don't think it's comparable in any way to cutting a fireball for maly, there are other more sensible cards to cut for that.
I don't see two copies, actually used, being all that helpful in anything except fatigue matchups and possibly against something like face shaman. Against freeze mage for instance, it's very unlikely to make a difference. This is going to be primarily an OTK matchup for freeze mage anyway.
I could be wrong of course, I'm just not feeling two copies being essential.
I see what you're saying. That theoretically you should only need to heal once and that adding a second one should be a matter of statistical inference.
I think there is no denying that with cards like cairne, sylvanas, tirion and n'zoth mean we should be able to outvalue most decks. So how do we get to the point to cash in that value. And we need to think, how and when do we lose?
Against decks with a finite amount of damage like miracle rogue and freeze mage, the card can win you the game. Then having the second one is probably only a matter of consistency.
Against non-aggro decks, you can afford to be greedier with you truesilver champions and ashbringer. Not to mention if you get second ashbringer.
I don't think the card is ever really bad (especially because of tirion).
Ok, so we are considering if having only 1 is sufficient.
Then we also assume that there were never a case where you would want to heal your own minion. That might be the case.
Hmm. I'll need to address this later when there is a clearer picture of the deck as a whole.
It seems like N'zoth is the talk of the town right now in paladin as this might be the direction to take the class.
Lets discuss the N'zoth core, which cards are must and which aren't.
From my experience, watching other players play and discussing with them. This is the core I've come up with.
These are the cards which should always be played.
Right now in the meta with Flamewreathed Faceless, Zoo and C'thun you should add humilty and Keeper of Uldaman
This leaves 6 spots to fill.
Notable cards have been Infested Tauren, Twilight Summoner, Chillmaw, Abomination.
I feel like this deck has some potential but still it seems so draw dependent and lacking something.
Let's discuss how to build this.
And please refrain from posting comments like 'corrupted healbot is teh suxx0r'.
Edit.
Taking into account all the posts so far in this thread, I think that we have the core placed pretty well by consensus.
I tried out all the cards suggested in this thread rotating between the cards suggested. I had a 62% win-rate from the start of the reset to rank 6. (the stats can be viewed on page 4)
This is not particularly impressive but tells that the deck has potential overall.
the final version I settled with is this one with a 71% winrate, and I'm fairly certain that this is the best version.
Most notable exclusions are:
Lay on hands, you want to control the board early game and then drop threats.
Second kodo, you' probably lose if holding two kodos and they don't get value.
Twilight summoner, this card just doesn't fit in paladin if the opponent plays well.
Release the Kraken!
Yes, that is exactly the weakness which should be targeted.
1 humility in addition to the aldor's should be enough to counter the aggro shaman. This should not make the deck run out of steam as is.
If we were to add the second humility then we should probably also add draw like solemn vigil or acolyte.
It's possible to take it two directions, to either add more cycling and more reactive cards.
Or build the curve better to not need the extra draw beyond the 1 lay on hands. This would make the deck susceptible to drawing equality/doomsayer at the right time.
there are 6 slots remaining in the build.
from my experience Infested Tauren has been bad, and twilight summoner... I have always felt that I wanted to be ahead a little bit when i drop that card and somehow never found the time to drop a 1/1 at around 4 mana. I might be thinking it wrong though.
chillmaw fits because you don't actually want the deathrattle to go off, but vs. aggressive decks you want to be able to drop N'Zoth as soon as possible and a 6/6 taunt respawn makes that possible. Chillmaw has worked surprisingly well for me
This one has some midrange creatures and draw. No need to swarm the deck with adequate deathrattle creatures.
I don't think that this is the direction to take the deck.
Ragnaros is a very random card to add to the deck, it isn't lacking in lategame.
As paladin you cannot afford to play loot hoarders on turn 2.
What are you going to do against Tunnel Trogg, mana wurm, Twilight Elder, Darkshire Councilman.
Stampeding Kodo seems to slow, although I haven't tried it for a couple of years now. I don't really think you need to deal with the 1 attack minions left behind.
Azure Drake would be a high mana cost cycle, the spell damage seems irrelevant, although thinking about it there are a lot of 3 health minions right now.
Acolyte of Pain would be a good fit, but is it better than Solemn Vigil?
I agree that you don't need to put more deathrattle than is needed, I'm trying to scrape the deck down to the bare minimums. Forgive me for saying it but your deck seems to be not even rank 5 material.
Don't agree at all. Would you rather run Huge Toads to 'counter' these cards? You are a control deck, you don't run powerful early game creatures, you stall and draw early game and help yourself with Truesilver Champion which is a core card to help you ever get on board. No 2 drop contests Imp Gang Boss and Darkshire Councilman on it's own, you need some help from your deck. Also you have Doomsayers to drop for some crazy tempo swings vs aggro or a soft 7 health taunt. Acolytes feel like a gamble and generally are too slow, die for free and draw you 1 card like 70% of the time. They are good with Pyros, but you use them with equalities most of the time and can hardly ever combo those two during the early game. Azure Drakes are too slow and only good in slower MUps where you shouldn't even have problems. This is a midrange card, not a control card.
So generally it's either Loot Hoarder(s), Acolyte of Pains or Solemn Vigil for the card draw which you need at least one of with two of the latter costing >2 mana (you Can play Solemn for 0 but not on t2)
Paper is fine, nerf Rock. Sincerely, Scissors.
I think people are trying to hard to get max bodies with N'Zoth, the Corruptor instead of using him to simply outlast an opponent through solid attrition. Cards like Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner are only good if you are on par with your opponent or ahead. They are trash from behind and kind of just win-more by the time you get N'Zoth, the Corruptor off with max value. You really only need the N'Zoth trigger to bring back your legendary minions to generally secure a win, which means that your trash Deathrattle cards are kind of just unecessary.
I like thinking of N'Zoth, the Corruptor decks as control decks looking to just reanimate your legendary minions and get value out of everything else beforehand.
To that end, Loot Hoarder is great at helping you sift through your deck for stabilizers, and helps you keep an aggressive board down in the meantime. You need things that let you play low to the ground and the Hoarder is a great choice. Between having 2 Equality, 2 Consecration, and 2 Wild Pyromancer - you can deal with things like Tunnel Trogg, Mana Wyrm, and Twilight Elder easily enough. Same with Darkshire Councilman. You should use Loot Hoarder to manage the board and get you to the sweep so you can out value the mid and late game with your other cards.
Doomsayer simply has not been good for me at all. I would rather run Tuskarr Jouster to recoup life and put decent stats on the board and let things like Loot Hoarder work on getting you there.
Personally, since I dislike Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner, while also being on the fence about Infested Tauren, I think getting in some C'Thun action helps make up for it. In Priest, you get sweet cards like Museum Curator and Shifting Shade to still make your N'Zoth Triggers get you some good reanimation numbers, but I am not willing to run marginal cards to make that work in Paladin. 5-6 Targets is all you really need to get N'Zoth off late game after attrition is all said and done. Getting C'Thun in there for a bit of value means you can not only out value the late game with N'Zoth, but also get more in the early game with something like Twilight Elder while adding C'Thun to your late game plan.
Take this all with a grain of salt, I stopped playing N'Zoth Paladin to try N'Zoth Priest and the issues mentioned above were also becoming evident in Priest.
Doomsayer can be a total liability draw a fair amount of the time. Much like when people get super salty and only remember the times that RNG bit them in the ass, people only really seem to remember the times that Doomsayer was completely clutch instead of a fairly dead draw. I don't think the card is utter garbage and it is not something I would say is completely unplayable - just something I would say is suspect at times and up for consideration as to how playable it actually is.
Not sure how you would consider it slow midrange, you are swapping lackluster Deathrattle cards for more relevant stabilizing tools and throwing in another late game finisher... but at the end of the day I think it is nothing more than semantics when I say control and you say slow midrange.
You really do not need a 20/20 C'Thun to get value out of your 10 mana, even a 10/10 that blasts for 10 damage at a 10 mana premium - is pretty clutch after you have stabilized a board.
Currently testing the following list:
In my opinion The Skeleton Knight is a must have in this deck. This deck runs many expensive cards therefore you will win 70% of the draws. When played on tempo- you will alt least get 2-3 Knights out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor.
The next card i cannot imagine this deck to work is: Enter the Coliseum. Especially powerful against evolve shaman- after evolve is cast.
Not sure about: Sir Finley Mrrgglton. Depending on the ability given you can go up or down- don't like the rng...
Ok there has been great praise for Loot Hoarders and much hate for Corrupted Healbot.
I have always thought in my games that the healbot was mvp and that the downside was irrelevant. I will take it out of the core for the time being
The addition of loot hoarders obviously makes the good matchups much worse so at the very least it should make some of the bad matchups better. In theory I can't see how falling more behind on tempo, to cycle cards, addresses the most notable issues.
Surely you would always mulligan them away from your opening hand for Doomsayers, Truesilver Champions or Equalityies?
It seems like the general consensus is that card draw is needed in the form of Solemn Vigil and or Acolyte of Pain, Loot Hoarder.
regarding doomsayer. I believe that I have exhausted all the possible ways in which to remove it from the deck.
It cannot be done.
The way I like to build decks is so that they don't rely on a specific card to win, I should be able to win some games without the need to draw N'Zoth.
The Skeleton Knight doesn't really seem to fit that mindset.
Although the value potential could open up the possibility to play stuff like double Humility.
It wouldn't make the bad matchups better on it's own though. I just wrote the card off, but will test it out.
Enter the Coliseum seems worthless without humility. Especially in a meta were playing a 7/7 on 4 is allowed.
Actually thinking about it more, the synergies might be there...
This will need testing.
I have tried a bit of control pala the past few days and I must say that I'm not at all impressed with Corrupted Healbot. It just seems like a bad inclusion to try to force more value out of N'Zoth, the Corruptor. I mean which decks does it even do well against? It's obviously terrible against aggro and while the opponents heros health is not all that relevant for a control deck, a potential 32 extra healing actually is relevant in a lot of cases. In any case, I would definitely not say that it's part of the "core" of the deck. Neither would I say that 2x Forbidden Healing is. One copy, sure, but not necessarily two.
Doomsayer, however, is amazing. There's barely any silence in the meta, it's great to stop aggro in its tracks. It's also a great way to gain initiative in pretty much any matchup after a board clear. Worst case scenario, it's almost always a heal for at least 7. I would never take them out.
Keep the doomsayers, the card is amazing in this deck and held together a lot of my games. Either through preemptive use on an empty board to delay opponents plays or weakening them through soaking damage from aggro decks. That allows you to drop your own big minions on your turn and is pretty important for a deck this slow. I'd call it a must have.
Playing a 6/6 on 5 into sylvanas or cairne on 6 will put any deck on the backfoot.
From the looks of it, I might need to reconsider my perspective on the card.
Good thread, I'm in the same thought process of defining core cards for N'Zoth Paladin.
My two cents on a few points that have been discussed.
- 2xDoomsayer are vital IMHO. Very flexible, plus they synergize well with your AoE.
- A bit of card draw is needed. Solemn Vigil does wonders with Doomsayer and AoE so you should run one. I'm open to the possibility of running a couple Loot Hoarders, still haven't tried it.
- 1xForbidden Healing is necessary, not so sure about the second one.
- I agree with the idea of not overcommitting to greedy deathrattle minions. On turns 4-5 I often need to answer the aggression, Corrupted Healbot and Twilight Summoner don't provide that. I like Infested Tauren 'cause he soaks 3 damages. Also, when you bring him back with N'Zoth he'll protect your big minions and help you initiate the trading game if the opponent has board. Still testing though, not sure if I'll include him, it's my biggest doubt at the moment.
- 1xHumility and 1xStampeding Kodo are close to being core cards IMHO, not necessarily for the combo and especially if the meta is fast.
- 1 slot should be given to a key tech like The Black Knight or Harrison Jones and I'd consider an additional taunt (Sen'jin, Psychotron or even Chillmaw if you're a bit greedy).
Life is OP.
Please Blizzard nerf Life.
Life banned from standard format confirmed. Indirect Death buff.
Thank you Blizzard.
One is necessary for sure, I'm not arguing that at all. Having two though I feel is more about consistency in drawing one when you need it, rather than two actually being needed. I don't think it's comparable in any way to cutting a fireball for maly, there are other more sensible cards to cut for that.
I don't see two copies, actually used, being all that helpful in anything except fatigue matchups and possibly against something like face shaman. Against freeze mage for instance, it's very unlikely to make a difference. This is going to be primarily an OTK matchup for freeze mage anyway.
I could be wrong of course, I'm just not feeling two copies being essential.
That theoretically you should only need to heal once and that adding a second one should be a matter of statistical inference.
So how do we get to the point to cash in that value. And we need to think, how and when do we lose?
That might be the case.