First off, i am a Hunter at heart. Its my favorite class by a mile and mostly always has been. It was my first golden class and i'm at around 1200 wins with Hunter, THat out of the way why is it that blizzard feels the need to bombard every other class with healing/armor while hunter gets basically nothing? Here is what i mean:
These are just the highlights for each class
Druid
(4) - Branching Paths - probably the strongest card in the game - 12 armor for 4!
(1) - Earthen Scales - armor
(4) - Oaken Summons - 6 armor and a free minion
(10) - Ultimate Infestation
(7) - Malfurion - auto 5 armor - possible 3 per turn
Warlock
(1) - Dark Pact - 8 life
(3) - Drain Life - 2
(4) - spell stone - usually 7 dmg/life
Warrior
Too many armor gains to list
Mage - is a bit rough right now losing ice block
(1) - Arcane Artificer - usually sees turn 7 with blizzard for 6 armor
(3) - Ice barrier - 8 armor
(9) - Frost Lich - INSANE life gain
Paladin
IF i haven't won by turn 7 i concede anyway
(4) - Chillblade
(2) - Holy Light
(8) - Lay on Hands
(4) - True Silver
(9) - Uther
Priest -
(2) Hero Power,
(2) - Devine Hymn
(5) - Nova
Rogue
(2) - Leaching Poison - when kingbane was a thing - I still gain disgusting amounts of life in my wild kingbane deck
Shaman
(3) - Rain, usually hits hero for 10 or so
Clears the board so effectively don't care about life that much -
Finally - Hunter
(6) - Deathstalker - 5 armor............
Ok so you made a list...big deal. Well my point is, is that with the massive amount of life/armor gain and taunt minions going around right now as a hunter you are pretty much either
winning early which means your opponent drew poorly or
going late game
Hunter is bad late game, i mean really bad when compared to the other classes. So long post long, that ties us into one specific archetype - face hunter.........if face hunter does work, like in my opinion right now, the class just gets shit on. This is really disappointing to me mostly because after K&K i felt like hunter was getting to a point where it could break out and do something different. Last season i played a secret Kathrena deck that felt strong and could win semi-late game matches, but with the loss of cat trick (probably the best secret hunter had, wondering monster is close but not reliable) and Huntress (god i miss her) and no new support we are just back to hitting face...... So i've rambled on long enough, sorry this is probably unfocused and long but i had to get some stuff off my chest. Anyway good luck and happy hunting. What do you guys think?
At the same time, this expansion gave Hunter some great tools for heling trought beasts, especially DK' built bests with lifesteal and rush. It fits the theme (Rogue heals w/ leaching weapon, Hunter heals trough their beasts), without taking much of the classes' identies.
I agree Kathrena is still a good combo but single target removal is so prevalent it doesn't feel as strong as it used to. I think i may misrepresented what i wanted to say in this post, i guess i don't really think hunter needs more lifegain/armor but as being a damage race it need other classes to have less lol. The meta is young right now so we will see what shakes out, i'm just more frustrated than anything because i felt hunter was strong after K&K in a way that wasn't just the damage race, and it felt good to have flexibility.
(4) - Branching Paths - probably the strongest card in the game - 12 armor for 4!
I agree with most of your post (I've been in love with playing Control/Combo Hunter for some time and I still am - but it really lacks good card draw and ways of healing against burn decks) :P
But while Branching Paths certainly isn't a bad card, it's not even close to being the strongest card in the game. :)
Zombeasts with lifesteal can be good. I definitely can outvalue control decks with DK hero power...
But aggro decks will wreck you.
The DK is really good but it is just 1 card in 30, without good card draw, it's a gamble to ge it, you will not last that late in the game to draw it. And on top of that you have to get a zombeast with lifesteal, you really need the aid of RNJesus.
But yes, Deathstalker Rexxar completely destroys control decks (witch are not exixtant in the current meta, apart maybe from control warlock that with Bloodreaver Gul'dan will outboard you)
Source: I play control hunter and i face mostly aggro decks (face paladin, face hunter, aggro mage, odd rouge) in casual.
You have Plated Beetle and Rotten Applebaum, both of which r very ok on curve plays and with a very nice "life gain". They r both deathrattle minions (and Beetle is even a Beast) and Hunter has quite a few interactions with those. So while it might not have much in terms of class healings, there r certainly a good options in terms of neutral cards. And im not even talking about Wild, where there is bunch more.
i think a flavorful way of adding healing to hunter would be just adding more lifesteal beasts
I personally think it's fine for a class to have both control tool and aggro capability (look at paladin, druid and warlock). It's stupid to say that hunter is an aggresive class so they can't have a good control deck.
Hunter's class identity is beasts, trap, and ranged weapons. I don't see why there can't be a control card involving those themes
HOW IS EVERYONE WHO HAS REPLIED MISSED THE POINT BY SO MUCH?!?!?!?!
OP is NOT saying that Hunter needs to have healing/armor mechanics. It is that the other classes have been given way way too much versatile tools to put their class out of killing blow that Hunter previously are able to slowly do WITHOUT giving any use-able counter tools to the Hunter class to balance things up.
The situation is so bad right now with Witchwood that it is almost basically an auto concede for Hunter when matched against a Druid, compared to say 1-2 years back. (don't be the technical truculent; not saying 100% auto loss but the win loss ratio against Druid now is absolutely atrocious)
Secondly, the other important point is that most Hearthstone players have not realized: class identity protection is such a BS joke as it is ONLY applied to limit Hunters but all the other classes have free reign and is currently diluted to heck. Think about it, blizzard/everyone keeps saying that Hunter cannot be given healing/armor/draw mechanics because Hunter's identity is to go face/smorc yet there's new additional identity attribute now given to:
HOW IS EVERYONE WHO HAS REPLIED MISSED THE POINT BY SO MUCH?!?!?!?!
OP is NOT saying that Hunter needs to have healing/armor mechanics. It is that the other classes have been given way way too much versatile tools to put their class out of killing blow that Hunter previously are able to slowly do WITHOUT giving any use-able counter tools to the Hunter class to balance things up.
The situation is so bad right now with Witchwood that it is almost basically an auto concede for Hunter when matched against a Druid, compared to say 1-2 years back. (don't be the technical truculent; not saying 100% auto loss but the win loss ratio against Druid now is absolutely atrocious)
Secondly, the other important point is that most Hearthstone players have not realized: class identity protection is such a BS joke as it is ONLY applied to limit Hunters but all the other classes have free reign and is currently diluted to heck. Think about it, blizzard/everyone keeps saying that Hunter cannot be given healing/armor/draw mechanics because Hunter's identity is to go face/smorc yet there's new additional identity attribute now given to:
** resurrect ability previously, mostly exclusive and identified to Priest class
I totally hear you. I came here frustrated that I couldn't build a decent hunter deck and I had been brewing the following thoughts for a while. The "class identity" thing is an excuse for Team 5 to say that they don't like certain classes being strong at any certain time. In effect, the classes are not like MtG colours (having glaring weaknesses individually, but strong when combined) but more like personalities that have different ways of approaching the same problem. There is a way to have board clears with Hunter that's hunter-ish. There's a way to have card draw in that sense as well. They really need to look harder at their design ideas. Also, hunter--a class that needs the board the most--has the worst recruit mechanics. The strongest classes right now do that very well and have tools that sustain that board control and as well their life totals. These things need to be universal. Otherwise, the classes like hunter aren't even playing the same game.
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NA golden heroes: Hunter, and Rogue! Let's try for Paladin next!
Hunter really needs something from following to stay relevant:
efficient draws
efficient board clears or a Mass Dispel equivalent or some silence echo equivalent
decent discover cards (interesting information here: did you know Hunter is basically one of the few classes without any discover cards that can discover cards from a large pool of choices?? they only have Stitched Tracker that gives the choice pool of your own deck AND it has to be a minion whereas for other classes their discover pool allows them to look for answers outside of their deck)
you can have a look at a recent deck i posted here borne from the frustration of missing card draw mechanic for Hunter: DRAW HUNTER, maybe it can give you some ideas on how to draw alternatively for Hunter while playing Hunter like games.
Good discussion, funny that I just talked about similar concept of armor/heal in my own hunter thread where I was testing a control build (https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/class-discussion/hunter/217515-control-hunter-pushes-control-priest-into-fatigue). I've been playing that deck for the last week and love the play style, despite low win rate. Similar to what a couple other posters have mentioned in this thread, here are my thoughts from personal experience:
All successful control decks have armor gain/heal, basic hunter deck currently does not
Lifesteal minions can be hunter's version of healing/armor, it works well with hunter's identity
Currently, there aren't enough lifesteal/heal minions to make control hunter consistent
After trying several iterations of control hunter, I came to conclusion that there are only 2 ways to achieve this (failing to get either is a guaranteed loss, and I don't feel that at this time that I can ensure that consistently yet):
Vicious Scalehide + Dire Frenzy
DK Rexxar -> lifesteal zombeasts
I believe that having another lifesteal minion or 2 (preferably with rush) to hold us over until Dire Frenzy or DK Rexxar would help the viability of control hunter a ton. Perhaps even something as simple as a spell that grants a friendly beast lifesteal so I can throw it on my Animal Companion. The draw, in my opinion, is not a problem after I get DK Rexxar, I just need to not die until I draw that card.
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First off, i am a Hunter at heart. Its my favorite class by a mile and mostly always has been. It was my first golden class and i'm at around 1200 wins with Hunter, THat out of the way why is it that blizzard feels the need to bombard every other class with healing/armor while hunter gets basically nothing? Here is what i mean:
These are just the highlights for each class
Druid
Warlock
Warrior
Mage - is a bit rough right now losing ice block
Paladin
Priest -
Rogue
Shaman
Finally - Hunter
Ok so you made a list...big deal. Well my point is, is that with the massive amount of life/armor gain and taunt minions going around right now as a hunter you are pretty much either
Hunter is bad late game, i mean really bad when compared to the other classes. So long post long, that ties us into one specific archetype - face hunter.........if face hunter does work, like in my opinion right now, the class just gets shit on. This is really disappointing to me mostly because after K&K i felt like hunter was getting to a point where it could break out and do something different. Last season i played a secret Kathrena deck that felt strong and could win semi-late game matches, but with the loss of cat trick (probably the best secret hunter had, wondering monster is close but not reliable) and Huntress (god i miss her) and no new support we are just back to hitting face...... So i've rambled on long enough, sorry this is probably unfocused and long but i had to get some stuff off my chest. Anyway good luck and happy hunting. What do you guys think?
I mean, I believe it's almost in the class identity for Hunter.
Until Kingsbane-lifesteal, Rogue was the same way.
Thematically, both of these class archetypes are focused on dealing damage, not taking it.
Rogue doesn't have armor but has ways to effectively dodge attacks by sapping or killing minions through high tempo cards.
Hunter doesn't have armor because it has a playstyle more geared to being the one on the offensive, not defensive.
Additionally, as other people have stated, Hunter has the playstyle built into his hero power to simply go face.
At the same time, this expansion gave Hunter some great tools for heling trought beasts, especially DK' built bests with lifesteal and rush. It fits the theme (Rogue heals w/ leaching weapon, Hunter heals trough their beasts), without taking much of the classes' identies.
Dane just posted earlier this week a legend-viable Reno Hunter for wild, which I played some (too much work, too little HS this week), there is some discussion going on how to build renohunters on this topic: https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/class-discussion/hunter/204800-any-good-reno-hunter-decks#c19
I agree Kathrena is still a good combo but single target removal is so prevalent it doesn't feel as strong as it used to. I think i may misrepresented what i wanted to say in this post, i guess i don't really think hunter needs more lifegain/armor but as being a damage race it need other classes to have less lol. The meta is young right now so we will see what shakes out, i'm just more frustrated than anything because i felt hunter was strong after K&K in a way that wasn't just the damage race, and it felt good to have flexibility.
But while Branching Paths certainly isn't a bad card, it's not even close to being the strongest card in the game. :)
Zombeasts with lifesteal can be good. I definitely can outvalue control decks with DK hero power...
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You have Plated Beetle and Rotten Applebaum, both of which r very ok on curve plays and with a very nice "life gain". They r both deathrattle minions (and Beetle is even a Beast) and Hunter has quite a few interactions with those. So while it might not have much in terms of class healings, there r certainly a good options in terms of neutral cards. And im not even talking about Wild, where there is bunch more.
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You could use some of the deathrattle trigger effects (Terrorscale Stalker or Play Dead) with cards like Rotten Applebaum and Deranged Doctor. I even saw a Rogue list the other day that tried to get even more out of that with Carnivorous Cube. You could also run Seeping Oozeling with those two as your only deathrattles.
That doesn't change your premise that the class hasn't gotten healing on its own, but it's a pretty good time for neutral healing, imo.
i think a flavorful way of adding healing to hunter would be just adding more lifesteal beasts
I personally think it's fine for a class to have both control tool and aggro capability (look at paladin, druid and warlock). It's stupid to say that hunter is an aggresive class so they can't have a good control deck.
Hunter's class identity is beasts, trap, and ranged weapons. I don't see why there can't be a control card involving those themes
HOW IS EVERYONE WHO HAS REPLIED MISSED THE POINT BY SO MUCH?!?!?!?!
OP is NOT saying that Hunter needs to have healing/armor mechanics. It is that the other classes have been given way way too much versatile tools to put their class out of killing blow that Hunter previously are able to slowly do WITHOUT giving any use-able counter tools to the Hunter class to balance things up.
The situation is so bad right now with Witchwood that it is almost basically an auto concede for Hunter when matched against a Druid, compared to say 1-2 years back. (don't be the technical truculent; not saying 100% auto loss but the win loss ratio against Druid now is absolutely atrocious)
Secondly, the other important point is that most Hearthstone players have not realized: class identity protection is such a BS joke as it is ONLY applied to limit Hunters but all the other classes have free reign and is currently diluted to heck. Think about it, blizzard/everyone keeps saying that Hunter cannot be given healing/armor/draw mechanics because Hunter's identity is to go face/smorc yet there's new additional identity attribute now given to:
** resurrect ability previously, mostly exclusive and identified to Priest class
NA golden heroes: Hunter, and Rogue! Let's try for Paladin next!
Hunter really needs something from following to stay relevant:
you can have a look at a recent deck i posted here borne from the frustration of missing card draw mechanic for Hunter: DRAW HUNTER, maybe it can give you some ideas on how to draw alternatively for Hunter while playing Hunter like games.
Good discussion, funny that I just talked about similar concept of armor/heal in my own hunter thread where I was testing a control build (https://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/class-discussion/hunter/217515-control-hunter-pushes-control-priest-into-fatigue). I've been playing that deck for the last week and love the play style, despite low win rate. Similar to what a couple other posters have mentioned in this thread, here are my thoughts from personal experience:
I believe that having another lifesteal minion or 2 (preferably with rush) to hold us over until Dire Frenzy or DK Rexxar would help the viability of control hunter a ton. Perhaps even something as simple as a spell that grants a friendly beast lifesteal so I can throw it on my Animal Companion. The draw, in my opinion, is not a problem after I get DK Rexxar, I just need to not die until I draw that card.