With Doomsayer, it boils down to doing the math (and gambling that the opponent will not silence it). If the opponents board cannot do more than 7 damage, and it's threatening enough that you want it killed, play Doomsayer, as I generally view it as another form of healing like Ice Barrier or Healing Touch because it must soak damage or wipe the board. It's also why I have been toying with Bolf Ramshield, which is normally bad, but it can work like a healing effect similar to a Doomsayer, provided Bolf Ramshield doesn't get silenced. Doomsayer is also a good counter for Mirror Entity, which can be hilarious with certain mage tempo decks as the board wipe is uncounterable.
Yep, the Explosive Sheep + Poison Seeds interaction doesn't work. Even then I see many people running it as a 1 of. I don't know if I like it because we don't have a safe way to trigger his Deathrattle like Mage so it doesn't seem to make the cut for Druid IMHO.
If it either worked with Seeds or we had some consistent way to trigger it as it hits the board (without wasting lot of cards like playing Sheep + Pyromancer + Spell) then it could be a solid 2x.
Yep, the Explosive Sheep + Poison Seeds interaction doesn't work. Even then I see many people running it as a 1 of. I don't know if I like it because we don't have a safe way to trigger his Deathrattle like Mage so it doesn't seem to make the cut for Druid IMHO.
If it either worked with Seeds or we had some consistent way to trigger it as it hits the board (without wasting lot of cards like playing Sheep + Pyromancer + Spell) then it could be a solid 2x.
Yep, the Explosive Sheep + Poison Seeds interaction doesn't work. Even then I see many people running it as a 1 of. I don't know if I like it because we don't have a safe way to trigger his Deathrattle like Mage so it doesn't seem to make the cut for Druid IMHO.
If it either worked with Seeds or we had some consistent way to trigger it as it hits the board (without wasting lot of cards like playing Sheep + Pyromancer + Spell) then it could be a solid 2x.
In the end although Wrath cycles itself making it a 2 card/8 dust mass removal it still consists in three combo pieces to work. Not consistent enough I'm afraid. Maybe with all the Oracles and Tenders we can assemble this cards consistently by turn 8?
Then it could be better than relying on turn 10 Poison Seeds + Pyromancer + Swipe, but in turn 10 we have more chances of assembling a 3 card combo anyway, and the Pyro remains on board.
(Of course I'm talking about alternative plays with Poison Seeds, the best combo will ever be turn 9 Poison + Starfall).
The idea became that i still want to preserve the core integrity of mill druid ( Oracle / Naturalize / Deathlords etc ) but wanted a more minion heavy deck that focuses more on Value rather then the actuall Mill. I found it to be stronger against aggro due to having more options via minions and spells. Aswell as keeping strenghts against slower decks due to cards like Grand Crusader allows you to out value in a controll battle.
Much of this was initially along my line of thinking. I too thought that value minions would be better to trade with. Dancing Swords being one of them makes this easier. However, I have mixed feelings about the way you went about it.
When it comes to direct mill, here is what the Druid has:
Baron Rivendare: Not common, but could be used with dancing swords.
Lorewalker Cho - A fascinating way to fill your opponents hand with Mukla's bananas and other spells like Innervate or Wild Growth, but is unreliable and requires much skill.
You will likely notice a few things. The first is that Naturalize, Grove Tender, and Mulch are the only things that Druid has that are not neutral. Although, they can be great tools, particularly Naturalize which is some of the best mill in the game. The second is that Coldlight Oracle is basically a fatigue accelerant. This is good because it gives you draw without making up any ground on your opponent. But it's bad because you mill yourself as well. It is therefore best used either for card burn or towards the end to fatigue them IF they are closer.
Now let's look at direct mill again. Of the 4 direct milling options, the only one I don't run is Deathlord because it can be bad for board control. 2 Naturalize and 2 Dancing Swords will only put them closer to fatigue by 6 cards maximum. And that's if you get off every one. While your opponent's own card draw can add a bit to this, it is not to be counted on. So it can be hard to force them too much ahead.
The last thing you may want to notice is that literally everything situational/combo based besides Mulch and King Mukla must rely on at least one of the other cards already mentioned to do any milling. And much of that is meant mostly for Coldlight Oracle. In other words, you aren't going to be good at milling without Coldlight Oracle and something to combo with it. There is so few options for direct mill, and Coldlight Oracle is the only one that is so reusable.
So what does this mean?
It means you almost have to run something to combo with Coldlight Oracle. Outside of Rogue, brewmasters are the best for this. Brann Bronzebeard may be able to combo with it as well. But smart opponents will identify your mill deck and take out Coldlight to prevent this. Brewmasters let you return Coldlight Oracle to the safety of your hand to be played in combo again. The other advantage to brewmasters is they let you replay battlecry minions. Brann will double the effects, but it will only have one target. You can't, for instance, silence the same target twice. Brann will have certain advantages over the brewmasters, such as likely being more efficient for healing. But for milling purposes, it is not as reliable. Brewmasters are better for this. Although, it is likely worth running both.
About your cuts...
I wouldn't recommend cutting all the Brewmasters out as they are vital. IMO, you should run at least 2. Even if you don't use them for mill, they are quite versatile with battlecry minions or for healing minions up after trades.
I would potentially agree with you cutting Poison Seeds and Starfall if you had a better solution for AoE/board clear. Again, a main thing preventing this deck style from being good is that it's hard to get board control back once you lose it. And it's hard to keep board control when you keep giving your opponent cards. But that's what mill does. I'm not married to the cards but there aren't many alternatives.
I liked your other cuts. IMO, Wild Pyromancer does not fit Druid. Grove Tender isn't that great to me. It's sort of like a poor man's Coldlight Oracle with a bit more health.
Grove Tender is actually fairly useful against aggro because it allows you to turn OFF the card draw, as the extra mana crystal to aggro is not as good as the extra card. It's also one of those cards that's a solid beta in the deck. That is, it's really good at helping you win, and taking it out reduces your win rate, but its only good because of the synergy with everything else.
Shooting your personal draw is one of the ways that you lose because you want to keep a decently full hand most of the game, as the objective is to outlast the opponent, not mill them like a rogue deck does.
I'm not saying Grove Tender is bad. I'm saying it's not necessary. Coldlight Oracle is far more necessary. Grove Tenders give 2 cards max per player. Coldlight Oracles give 4. This doesn't count combos. But you would combo with Coldlight because it's twice as efficient. If you were to run a deck with just one, it would be Coldlight. Etc.
Yes, I realize you can run both. But missing an extra 2 mutual card draw at most isn't necessarily game breaking, particularly if you have cards to combo with coldlight. It does improve consistency a bit. But that's all. I think the discover mechanic could become a better alternative to draw in a lot of cases, particularly if it is just single draw.
As far as the aggro match up, that is something that Grove Tender doesn't help with. It either gives them cards or it gives them a crystal to put more on the board faster. You could argue that the crystal is better to give than the card. But they are both not good for you. Honestly, you would be better off running just one of the two versus aggro as opposed to both. And if you run just one, it of course should be Coldlight for reasons explained above.
Tree of Life can be replaced with Reno Jackson, but it's really better to have Tree of Life because it's always guaranteed to work if you can survive until turn 9+, whereas Reno Jackson can fail if you do not build your deck for it because of duplicate cards in the deck when you really need that heal. It's probably an edge case, and a game you were probably gonna lose anyway, but it is something to be aware of with Reno Jackson.
However, Starfire stands out from the other two because of the asymmetric draw, which is something that is actually necessary, and one of the reasons why I tend to like Grove Tender, as being able to sift through your deck, while also drawing down the opponent, is very helpful.
To be quite honest though, Fatigue Druid (prior to LoE) is in a state very similar to Beast Druid prior to LoE. While there's been many cards with strong potential to improve Fatigue Druid in LoE, I think another expansion with cards specifically designed for fatigue/mill need to be included before it becomes anything more than a novelty deck.
Following the discussion here I got really tempted to test some cards, besides the ones I already mentioned. Right now Im running 2x Doomsayer and other stuff, but this are my current concerns.
- I dont really know if Pyro is that great in Druid Mill. Besides Wrath we have no other low cost spells to combo it with (Naturalize cant be played wherever we want to), and the majority of other spells are AoE that could be buffed just as fine by Thalnos.
- Im not so sure on cutting a Tree of Life for Thaurissan. The Emperor is great, and in an archetype where we sit with quite some cards in hand its assured to have great value, but overall he doesnt add so much to our game plan while ToL if played well win games.
- I really want to try Deathlord, but cant find the slots.
Concerning Deathlord and Pyromancer: I switched. Deathlord by it's own is a wall for aggro decks and it's a really better target for Healing Touch than using it on Pyromancer as it won't stay long on board anyway with 1 health. I also dropped one copy of Brewmaster since Brann already has a very simmilar effect - even better if you have ways to keep it safe from trades, like playing it behind a Deathlord. In it's place Tree of LIfe came back.
So, right now it's basically the same as the list above with this adjustments:
+ 2x Deathlord + 1x Tree of Life
- 2x Wild Pyromancer - 1x Youthful Brewmaster
I'm still tempted to test Thalnos as it works very well with Swipe and Starfall, but the list seems pretty tight right now and I can't find any slot.
Problem is that Brann isn't destined to stay for too long on board. Most of times you'll just trigger him once or twice before it gets removed. Sure, the dream is to make crazy combos after reducing the cost of some combo pieces with a well placed Thaurissan, but sometimes you just use it as a 3 mana Brewmaster which baits a lot of removal/trading etc.
I may try cutting a Healing Bot for the inclusion of Thalnos. It helps slightly with Reno as you said too.
Actually seeing how Brann doesn't work with Grove Tender I got a bit disappointed. Sure, best fatigue scenario is to Brann + Oracle + Oracle which usually seal the deal, but I still see the needing for an 1 of Youthful Brewmaster, which we can combo earlier/with Grove Tender.
It's funny how many Reno Jackson's lists are being so popular and some even reaching competitive play, while it fits the better in Mill Druid but the archetype isn't either popular nor really competitive at the moment.
Mill strategy is naturally a bad match up for Control and with the proper survival package we can hold the initial aggression from Aggro as well, I have good winrate against both Handlock AND Face Hunter. What you guys believe that is missing? A different approach? More Mill cards? Survivability cards?
Druids really do need a version of Excavated Evil, or another board clear that can be used early on in the game. Swipe and Starfall, while good tools, don't do nearly enough, as we don't have a mechanic similar to freeze to work with (like the mages do), or Sap and Vanish like the rogues do.
While Poison Seeds is useful, it's not that good on it's own.
With Doomsayer, it boils down to doing the math (and gambling that the opponent will not silence it). If the opponents board cannot do more than 7 damage, and it's threatening enough that you want it killed, play Doomsayer, as I generally view it as another form of healing like Ice Barrier or Healing Touch because it must soak damage or wipe the board. It's also why I have been toying with Bolf Ramshield, which is normally bad, but it can work like a healing effect similar to a Doomsayer, provided Bolf Ramshield doesn't get silenced. Doomsayer is also a good counter for Mirror Entity, which can be hilarious with certain mage tempo decks as the board wipe is uncounterable.
Explosive Sheep doesn't work well with Poison Seeds as Poison Seeds does the following:
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Yep, the Explosive Sheep + Poison Seeds interaction doesn't work. Even then I see many people running it as a 1 of. I don't know if I like it because we don't have a safe way to trigger his Deathrattle like Mage so it doesn't seem to make the cut for Druid IMHO.
If it either worked with Seeds or we had some consistent way to trigger it as it hits the board (without wasting lot of cards like playing Sheep + Pyromancer + Spell) then it could be a solid 2x.
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Then it could be better than relying on turn 10 Poison Seeds + Pyromancer + Swipe, but in turn 10 we have more chances of assembling a 3 card combo anyway, and the Pyro remains on board.
(Of course I'm talking about alternative plays with Poison Seeds, the best combo will ever be turn 9 Poison + Starfall).
This is what i'm using now :O
Mill! Mill!
As far as Wild Pyromancer goes, the general idea is to burn him out, whether that's using Healing Touch and something else, or two removal spells. If he's an Arcane Explosion + Darkbomb, or perhaps 2xArcane Explosion, then Wild Pyromancer did his job. Even as a Darkbomb or Arcane Explosion it's still passible, because the effect is somewhat mana efficient comparatively.
It's all about how you view the cards, and how you can combine them creatively and effectively to solve board control issues.
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Looking at some of the newer cards from LoE that have been released thus far....
Jeweled Scarab actually hits quite a few of the mill cards, so that's a possible consideration.
Summoning Stone for the lulz. Could be surprisingly good given our removal kit - but may require Emperor Thaurissan.
Brann Bronzebeard is the other one that potentially promising, but is probably going to be not good in practices. Either way, testing is warranted.
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Situational or Combo Mill/Card Burn:
You will likely notice a few things. The first is that Naturalize, Grove Tender, and Mulch are the only things that Druid has that are not neutral. Although, they can be great tools, particularly Naturalize which is some of the best mill in the game. The second is that Coldlight Oracle is basically a fatigue accelerant. This is good because it gives you draw without making up any ground on your opponent. But it's bad because you mill yourself as well. It is therefore best used either for card burn or towards the end to fatigue them IF they are closer.
Now let's look at direct mill again. Of the 4 direct milling options, the only one I don't run is Deathlord because it can be bad for board control. 2 Naturalize and 2 Dancing Swords will only put them closer to fatigue by 6 cards maximum. And that's if you get off every one. While your opponent's own card draw can add a bit to this, it is not to be counted on. So it can be hard to force them too much ahead.
The last thing you may want to notice is that literally everything situational/combo based besides Mulch and King Mukla must rely on at least one of the other cards already mentioned to do any milling. And much of that is meant mostly for Coldlight Oracle. In other words, you aren't going to be good at milling without Coldlight Oracle and something to combo with it. There is so few options for direct mill, and Coldlight Oracle is the only one that is so reusable.
So what does this mean?
It means you almost have to run something to combo with Coldlight Oracle. Outside of Rogue, brewmasters are the best for this. Brann Bronzebeard may be able to combo with it as well. But smart opponents will identify your mill deck and take out Coldlight to prevent this. Brewmasters let you return Coldlight Oracle to the safety of your hand to be played in combo again. The other advantage to brewmasters is they let you replay battlecry minions. Brann will double the effects, but it will only have one target. You can't, for instance, silence the same target twice. Brann will have certain advantages over the brewmasters, such as likely being more efficient for healing. But for milling purposes, it is not as reliable. Brewmasters are better for this. Although, it is likely worth running both.
About your cuts...
I wouldn't recommend cutting all the Brewmasters out as they are vital. IMO, you should run at least 2. Even if you don't use them for mill, they are quite versatile with battlecry minions or for healing minions up after trades.
I would potentially agree with you cutting Poison Seeds and Starfall if you had a better solution for AoE/board clear. Again, a main thing preventing this deck style from being good is that it's hard to get board control back once you lose it. And it's hard to keep board control when you keep giving your opponent cards. But that's what mill does. I'm not married to the cards but there aren't many alternatives.
I liked your other cuts. IMO, Wild Pyromancer does not fit Druid. Grove Tender isn't that great to me. It's sort of like a poor man's Coldlight Oracle with a bit more health.
Grove Tender is actually fairly useful against aggro because it allows you to turn OFF the card draw, as the extra mana crystal to aggro is not as good as the extra card. It's also one of those cards that's a solid beta in the deck. That is, it's really good at helping you win, and taking it out reduces your win rate, but its only good because of the synergy with everything else.
Shooting your personal draw is one of the ways that you lose because you want to keep a decently full hand most of the game, as the objective is to outlast the opponent, not mill them like a rogue deck does.
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I'm not saying Grove Tender is bad. I'm saying it's not necessary. Coldlight Oracle is far more necessary. Grove Tenders give 2 cards max per player. Coldlight Oracles give 4. This doesn't count combos. But you would combo with Coldlight because it's twice as efficient. If you were to run a deck with just one, it would be Coldlight. Etc.
Yes, I realize you can run both. But missing an extra 2 mutual card draw at most isn't necessarily game breaking, particularly if you have cards to combo with coldlight. It does improve consistency a bit. But that's all. I think the discover mechanic could become a better alternative to draw in a lot of cases, particularly if it is just single draw.
As far as the aggro match up, that is something that Grove Tender doesn't help with. It either gives them cards or it gives them a crystal to put more on the board faster. You could argue that the crystal is better to give than the card. But they are both not good for you. Honestly, you would be better off running just one of the two versus aggro as opposed to both. And if you run just one, it of course should be Coldlight for reasons explained above.
I made a bit of changes in my list, soon I'll post it guys!
We could thing about a 'Card Choice' guide, what about?!
You should consider Starfire and Force of Nature, as the latter is basically "deal 2 damage to 3 targets".
You may also want to consider dropping a Keeper of the Grove for an Ironbeak Owl to help with the Reno Jackson synergy.
Wild Pyromancer also is effective against hunters, and certain mage builds.
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I don't have Mulch and Tree of Life =/
Could I still play Druid or should I focus then on rogue?
Do not go gentle into that good fight
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With Starfire, Starfall, and Force of Nature, yeah they are all expensive, however, two combo well with Poison Seeds, while all can be used as an alternative to Mulch and Naturalize, while using Starfall for the single target is less good. The same is true for Force of Nature to a lesser extent.
However, Starfire stands out from the other two because of the asymmetric draw, which is something that is actually necessary, and one of the reasons why I tend to like Grove Tender, as being able to sift through your deck, while also drawing down the opponent, is very helpful.
To be quite honest though, Fatigue Druid (prior to LoE) is in a state very similar to Beast Druid prior to LoE. While there's been many cards with strong potential to improve Fatigue Druid in LoE, I think another expansion with cards specifically designed for fatigue/mill need to be included before it becomes anything more than a novelty deck.
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Following the discussion here I got really tempted to test some cards, besides the ones I already mentioned. Right now Im running 2x Doomsayer and other stuff, but this are my current concerns.
- I dont really know if Pyro is that great in Druid Mill. Besides Wrath we have no other low cost spells to combo it with (Naturalize cant be played wherever we want to), and the majority of other spells are AoE that could be buffed just as fine by Thalnos.
- Im not so sure on cutting a Tree of Life for Thaurissan. The Emperor is great, and in an archetype where we sit with quite some cards in hand its assured to have great value, but overall he doesnt add so much to our game plan while ToL if played well win games.
- I really want to try Deathlord, but cant find the slots.
Heres the list
Concerning Deathlord and Pyromancer: I switched. Deathlord by it's own is a wall for aggro decks and it's a really better target for Healing Touch than using it on Pyromancer as it won't stay long on board anyway with 1 health. I also dropped one copy of Brewmaster since Brann already has a very simmilar effect - even better if you have ways to keep it safe from trades, like playing it behind a Deathlord. In it's place Tree of LIfe came back.
So, right now it's basically the same as the list above with this adjustments:
+ 2x Deathlord
+ 1x Tree of Life
- 2x Wild Pyromancer
- 1x Youthful Brewmaster
I'm still tempted to test Thalnos as it works very well with Swipe and Starfall, but the list seems pretty tight right now and I can't find any slot.
Problem is that Brann isn't destined to stay for too long on board. Most of times you'll just trigger him once or twice before it gets removed. Sure, the dream is to make crazy combos after reducing the cost of some combo pieces with a well placed Thaurissan, but sometimes you just use it as a 3 mana Brewmaster which baits a lot of removal/trading etc.
I may try cutting a Healing Bot for the inclusion of Thalnos. It helps slightly with Reno as you said too.
Actually seeing how Brann doesn't work with Grove Tender I got a bit disappointed. Sure, best fatigue scenario is to Brann + Oracle + Oracle which usually seal the deal, but I still see the needing for an 1 of Youthful Brewmaster, which we can combo earlier/with Grove Tender.
It's funny how many Reno Jackson's lists are being so popular and some even reaching competitive play, while it fits the better in Mill Druid but the archetype isn't either popular nor really competitive at the moment.
Mill strategy is naturally a bad match up for Control and with the proper survival package we can hold the initial aggression from Aggro as well, I have good winrate against both Handlock AND Face Hunter. What you guys believe that is missing? A different approach? More Mill cards? Survivability cards?
Druids really do need a version of Excavated Evil, or another board clear that can be used early on in the game. Swipe and Starfall, while good tools, don't do nearly enough, as we don't have a mechanic similar to freeze to work with (like the mages do), or Sap and Vanish like the rogues do.
While Poison Seeds is useful, it's not that good on it's own.
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