**DISCLAIMER: First of all I'll start saying that I'm not salty and/or hate the rogue's quest at all, I actually play this deck a lot and it's definitely one of those decks that's super fun to play but it absolutely sucks to play against, so my opinion doesn't come from a salty-filled pov, before any of the forum trolls just pastes the salt thread link as a response :)
So ever since The Caverns Below quest was printed on Un'goro it has proven to be one of the most powerful cards in the meta, it has always been countered the same way, aggro, but it's an absolute control killer and it has different way of obliterating combo decks as well, either by an early quest completion or just with turn to turn pressure to the point the combo from the other player is either not enough or they don't have time to play it thus they don't really have a win condition.
I say this is arguably the worst designed card ever as it has been nerfed in 2 different occasions and it just needs 1 new card to pop back in the meta... on Un'goro it was an insane powerhouse cause you almost never needed more than 4 turns to have your quest online so the only way to beat this deck was with hyper hyper aggro or an extremely lucky Dirty Rat pull, then it was nerfed, you now needed to play 5 minions with the same name so the deck became too slow to be worth and it didn't saw much play (if any) during Frozen Throne. Then came Kobolds and Sonya Shadowdancer was printed, the deckwas still too slow and it didn't really have a good comeback mechanic, it was on the edge of being playable again. After that the Witchwood arrived and brought Quest rogue's wet dream... A cheap card with both rush and lifesteal, Vicious Scalehide, this single card made Quest Rogue viable again, it was still as slow as before but now it could heal for 5 a bunch of times thanks to out little lizard and all the bounce effects the deck run, it even had a chance against aggro due to all this healing. The nerf hammer hit the deck once more, now you only get 4/4s, I'm sure a lot of people thought the deck was finally dead.
Boomsday came, Giggling Inventor is arguably the best card from the set and definitely the most played one, and guess what? It turns out that summoning 3 4/4s for 5 mana is pretty busted, specially if 2 of them have taunt and divine shield and lets not talk about how much more busted it gets if you kill the giggles while Sonya is on board.
I'm pretty sure we'll see another nerf for this deck sometime down this expansion but I honestly don't see what Blizzard could do to nerf this card even more without making it Millhouse's power level or something, they clearly want this card to be playable as they've been just making small changes that makes the card worse but still insane and they keep printing cards that make it more powerful even with all these nerfs, they think making it so you need to play more minions or downgrading the result by 1 changes the card... but it doesn't the mechanic is the same, against slow decks you have time to play 1 more minion and you don't care if you got 5/5s or 4/4s, you might be slower with the new quest but the point is that no control deck can deal with a board fload of 4/4s every turn, specially when you can go infinite with Zola. They are even making the aggro match-up better with every expansion if you think about it, it still sucks a lot but Sonya, Scalehide and Giggling for sure make it better.
So what's your opinion? Did blizzard really drop the ball on this one? this card is clearly out of control and it has been proven that it only needs 1 good card to come back into the meta as a force to be feared, even after being nerfed 2 times. The tempo this card enables after being completed is so insane that no slow deck can consistenly survive a board of 4+ 4/4s per turn and Blizz is making its vad match-ups slightly better with every expansion they release. To me it seems like the only way they can actually nerf this card is by making it literally unplayable, cause it seems like it always finds a way back and at that point what's the point of printing a card like that if it'll break the meta no matter what you do? There are cards you look and say: WTF why did they print that shit, it's ridiculous and then there's The Caverns Below that can be consistenly low Tier 1/Tier 2 a year after its release and with 2 nerfs on its back.
IMHO, the worst thing about The Caverns Below in terms of design is that, once activated, everything is the same. Whether the power-level of the deck is too strong at any given moment, the fact that it lacks variety is a little dull.
Imagine: what if The Crystal Core, once played, gave everything +2/+2 instead of becoming a 4/4? There's suddenly a difference between the various minions, and perhaps an incentive to actually play better minions, instead of just the smallest. Sonya's repeat summons aren't full-size anymore. The fact that minion stats don't matter with the quest is kinda unfortunate.
I'll also say that Demonic Project wasn't enough of a combo-breaker card to replace Dirty Rat. I definitely don't want Dirty Rat to be around forever (I don't want most of the Classic and Basic cards to still be here!) but that basic type of effect--combo breaking--is a vital aspect of a game such as Hearthstone which is designed to be mostly non-interactive.
That said, The Caverns Below will rotate. It'll be out of standard and gone-forever for most HS players before too long. Let it live out it's last gasp, and then relegate it to wild, where I'd guess it's mostly unplayed. But that's for the Wild players to figure out.
Some control killer cards is a necessary evil in any card game. In general, decks that kills controls are weak to aggro and aggro decks are weak to control and so on. So, in my opinion, the best way to “nerf” quest rogue is to print good aggro cards to be used in odd rogues, zoos, odd paladins and so on. Better aggro tools are the mist efficient way to deal with “unfair” decks. In other words, quest rogue has a place in this meta because the game created lots of good anti-aggro cards and the two bests aggro decks in meta (odds rogue and paly) didn’t get anything really good in boomsday. Now, about your question, i think kingsbane is, by far, the worst design card in the history of card games.
Then their are some rare cases of wonderfully designed cards like Tirion Fordring, Corpsetaker, and Wild Pyromancer that are good and have straightforward effects aren't an auto include in every archetype and often reward good play and deck building.
Caverns has already been nerfed twice, I highly doubt you'll see a third. If anything Giggling might see a nerf because suddenly this little guy is having an azure drake type of effect on the meta. He's the kind of great 5 drop that can simply fit in any deck and get value. THOSE are the types of card blizzard grows weary of (see: RagnarosDrake/Sylvanas). Cards that are so great they don't have to do with any theme or strategy your decks trying to pull off, but they're so good it doesn't matter. Play them and they'll get value.
Once Blizzard realizes Giggling fits that category (remember, they have to wait for the numbers first) then they'll probably do something about him. Probably nerf in his mana cost though as anything else nerfed wouldn't make much sense and/or destroy the cards identity otherwise.
Viscious is only powerful in this deck really so they won't touch this critter. On it's one its just a little beast that sees little play else were at best,
Just my two cents but my point is don't expect Blizzard to nerf Caverns a third time, won't happen. I love the card so I'm hoping really hard it won't happen personally but Giggling is the more logical/realistic choice for the next batch of nerfs.
I dont like kingsbane and Quest rogue. Personally I thing the problem card is preparation in both deck's. The card need to be made the next spell that cost 3 or less is free. the tempo gain by playing vanish for 3, quest for 2, blade flurry for 1 or sprint for 4 is big and it allow for other plays in the same turn.
The card is fine. It’s hard countered by aggro, which everyone plays beCause they are easier to play. You actually need to pilot it well or you need to have a solid mulligan to have any chance against remotely fast decks. As one poster said earlier, it is a necessary evil.
Short answer: yes, it is one of the worst designs in Hearthstone history and, rightfully so, one of the most hated.
There are some easy changes that would make it more "fair", in my opinion. Blizzard could change it so the aura only applies to the cards in your deck (not hand/board). Or they could change it from an aura to a normal buff, so it can be silenced.
Or they could address one of the main problems with the deck: infinite Zola the Gorgon via Death's Shadow. Simply change Zolas text so she only targets "other" cards (i.e. she cannot target herself).
Overall, I think Hearthstone should avoid extreme match-up disparities like the plague and Quest Rogue creates some of the worst examples.
Caverns has already been nerfed twice, I highly doubt you'll see a third. If anything Giggling might see a nerf because suddenly this little guy is having an azure drake type of effect on the meta. He's the kind of great 5 drop that can simply fit in any deck and get value. THOSE are the types of card blizzard grows weary of (see: RagnarosDrake/Sylvanas). Cards that are so great they don't have to do with any theme or strategy your decks trying to pull off, but they're so good it doesn't matter. Play them and they'll get value.
Once Blizzard realizes Giggling fits that category (remember, they have to wait for the numbers first) then they'll probably do something about him. Probably nerf in his mana cost though as anything else nerfed wouldn't make much sense and/or destroy the cards identity otherwise.
Viscious is only powerful in this deck really so they won't touch this critter. On it's one its just a little beast that sees little play else were at best,
Just my two cents but my point is don't expect Blizzard to nerf Caverns a third time, won't happen. I love the card so I'm hoping really hard it won't happen personally but Giggling is the more logical/realistic choice for the next batch of nerfs.
I'm more optimistic that Blizzard will nerf it. Ixxar (Balance Team, not sure on the spelling) was on Thijs' stream recently and he implied they were looking at it.
Some control killer cards is a necessary evil in any card game. In general, decks that kills controls are weak to aggro and aggro decks are weak to control and so on. So, in my opinion, the best way to “nerf” quest rogue is to print good aggro cards to be used in odd rogues, zoos, odd paladins and so on. Better aggro tools are the mist efficient way to deal with “unfair” decks. In other words, quest rogue has a place in this meta because the game created lots of good anti-aggro cards and the two bests aggro decks in meta (odds rogue and paly) didn’t get anything really good in boomsday. Now, about your question, i think kingsbane is, by far, the worst design card in the history of card games.
Do you realize that you're being very contradictory on the 6 lines you wrote? First you say it's a necessary evil (Which I would kinda agree) then you say that QRogue kills control and control beats aggro and aggro kills QRogue, so you pretty much say that it's an infinite circle right? And then you say the solution is to print a bunch of "good" aggro card that can easily punish QRogue... At that point what difference does it make? If blizzard makes aggro insane then control with heavy early anti-aggro tech will rise a lot, which means combo decks get a lot better as well and then QRogue will once again be really good to stop those decks. That's definitely not the answer lol.
I would not go as far as to say it is the worst card ever designed, Quest Rogue is a very fun deck to play even if it is absolutely miserable from the other end. It's certainly up there though, decks that specifically target an archetype are good for the game, but Quest Rogue specifically has practically no counterplay. I would say the worst designed card would be something like pre-nerf Undertaker which universally takes away from the ability to play the game.
I'm not speaking from a card design view or a logistical view. Rather this is just my personal opinion.
The Caverns Below Rogue was/is my most HATED deck to ever play against and I've played this game for a while.
I've braved through the Flamewaker from Mech Mage, battled the Mysterious Challenger from the infamous Secret Paladin, charged forward from the disgusting play-style of Grim Patron Warrior, took it like a MAN when Shadowreaper Anduin machine-gunned by face to oblivion, and cried many, MANY tears as Jade Idol proceeded to single-handedly destroy me.
But, nothing... NOTHING made me more salty than when I lost to Quest Rogue. While I would agree that Jade Idol is the more poorly designed card, I still wanted to play more games after I lost to it. The Caverns Below Rogue is the only deck that actually made me stop playing for a while.
**DISCLAIMER: First of all I'll start saying that I'm not salty and/or hate the rogue's quest at all, I actually play this deck a lot and it's definitely one of those decks that's super fun to play but it absolutely sucks to play against, so my opinion doesn't come from a salty-filled pov, before any of the forum trolls just pastes the salt thread link as a response :)
So ever since The Caverns Below quest was printed on Un'goro it has proven to be one of the most powerful cards in the meta, it has always been countered the same way, aggro, but it's an absolute control killer and it has different way of obliterating combo decks as well, either by an early quest completion or just with turn to turn pressure to the point the combo from the other player is either not enough or they don't have time to play it thus they don't really have a win condition.
I say this is arguably the worst designed card ever as it has been nerfed in 2 different occasions and it just needs 1 new card to pop back in the meta... on Un'goro it was an insane powerhouse cause you almost never needed more than 4 turns to have your quest online so the only way to beat this deck was with hyper hyper aggro or an extremely lucky Dirty Rat pull, then it was nerfed, you now needed to play 5 minions with the same name so the deck became too slow to be worth and it didn't saw much play (if any) during Frozen Throne. Then came Kobolds and Sonya Shadowdancer was printed, the deckwas still too slow and it didn't really have a good comeback mechanic, it was on the edge of being playable again. After that the Witchwood arrived and brought Quest rogue's wet dream... A cheap card with both rush and lifesteal, Vicious Scalehide, this single card made Quest Rogue viable again, it was still as slow as before but now it could heal for 5 a bunch of times thanks to out little lizard and all the bounce effects the deck run, it even had a chance against aggro due to all this healing. The nerf hammer hit the deck once more, now you only get 4/4s, I'm sure a lot of people thought the deck was finally dead.
Boomsday came, Giggling Inventor is arguably the best card from the set and definitely the most played one, and guess what? It turns out that summoning 3 4/4s for 5 mana is pretty busted, specially if 2 of them have taunt and divine shield and lets not talk about how much more busted it gets if you kill the giggles while Sonya is on board.
I'm pretty sure we'll see another nerf for this deck sometime down this expansion but I honestly don't see what Blizzard could do to nerf this card even more without making it Millhouse's power level or something, they clearly want this card to be playable as they've been just making small changes that makes the card worse but still insane and they keep printing cards that make it more powerful even with all these nerfs, they think making it so you need to play more minions or downgrading the result by 1 changes the card... but it doesn't the mechanic is the same, against slow decks you have time to play 1 more minion and you don't care if you got 5/5s or 4/4s, you might be slower with the new quest but the point is that no control deck can deal with a board fload of 4/4s every turn, specially when you can go infinite with Zola. They are even making the aggro match-up better with every expansion if you think about it, it still sucks a lot but Sonya, Scalehide and Giggling for sure make it better.
So what's your opinion? Did blizzard really drop the ball on this one? this card is clearly out of control and it has been proven that it only needs 1 good card to come back into the meta as a force to be feared, even after being nerfed 2 times. The tempo this card enables after being completed is so insane that no slow deck can consistenly survive a board of 4+ 4/4s per turn and Blizz is making its vad match-ups slightly better with every expansion they release. To me it seems like the only way they can actually nerf this card is by making it literally unplayable, cause it seems like it always finds a way back and at that point what's the point of printing a card like that if it'll break the meta no matter what you do? There are cards you look and say: WTF why did they print that shit, it's ridiculous and then there's The Caverns Below that can be consistenly low Tier 1/Tier 2 a year after its release and with 2 nerfs on its back.
just nerf this card to trash... they did it with so many other cards too, dont know why they hesitate so much. kingsbane is already cancer enough
it is a horrible design. Just as Jade Idol, Pogo Hopper.
From a big fan of rogue class, this is the worst card ever made in this game.
Don't need a nerf anymore, need to be completely removed from the game and release a new quest for rogue.
Agree with OP. This is a card that shouldn't have been printed.
Not only Rogue has nothing to do with 4/4 or 5/5, but also it's a boring effect to say the least.
So yeah, terribad design.
Developers' inability to balance is one thing; players choosing to abuse it is another.
Kingsbane is worse. But yes, not the best idea from blizzard.
IMHO, the worst thing about The Caverns Below in terms of design is that, once activated, everything is the same. Whether the power-level of the deck is too strong at any given moment, the fact that it lacks variety is a little dull.
Imagine: what if The Crystal Core, once played, gave everything +2/+2 instead of becoming a 4/4? There's suddenly a difference between the various minions, and perhaps an incentive to actually play better minions, instead of just the smallest. Sonya's repeat summons aren't full-size anymore. The fact that minion stats don't matter with the quest is kinda unfortunate.
I'll also say that Demonic Project wasn't enough of a combo-breaker card to replace Dirty Rat. I definitely don't want Dirty Rat to be around forever (I don't want most of the Classic and Basic cards to still be here!) but that basic type of effect--combo breaking--is a vital aspect of a game such as Hearthstone which is designed to be mostly non-interactive.
That said, The Caverns Below will rotate. It'll be out of standard and gone-forever for most HS players before too long. Let it live out it's last gasp, and then relegate it to wild, where I'd guess it's mostly unplayed. But that's for the Wild players to figure out.
Some control killer cards is a necessary evil in any card game. In general, decks that kills controls are weak to aggro and aggro decks are weak to control and so on. So, in my opinion, the best way to “nerf” quest rogue is to print good aggro cards to be used in odd rogues, zoos, odd paladins and so on. Better aggro tools are the mist efficient way to deal with “unfair” decks. In other words, quest rogue has a place in this meta because the game created lots of good anti-aggro cards and the two bests aggro decks in meta (odds rogue and paly) didn’t get anything really good in boomsday. Now, about your question, i think kingsbane is, by far, the worst design card in the history of card games.
Jade Idol is definitely the worst designed card ever.
But as you may have noticed their are plenty of terribly bad designed cards for example The Caverns Below, Ice Block, Kingsbane ect.
Then their are some rare cases of wonderfully designed cards like Tirion Fordring, Corpsetaker, and Wild Pyromancer that are good and have straightforward effects aren't an auto include in every archetype and often reward good play and deck building.
Caverns has already been nerfed twice, I highly doubt you'll see a third. If anything Giggling might see a nerf because suddenly this little guy is having an azure drake type of effect on the meta. He's the kind of great 5 drop that can simply fit in any deck and get value. THOSE are the types of card blizzard grows weary of (see: RagnarosDrake/Sylvanas). Cards that are so great they don't have to do with any theme or strategy your decks trying to pull off, but they're so good it doesn't matter. Play them and they'll get value.
Once Blizzard realizes Giggling fits that category (remember, they have to wait for the numbers first) then they'll probably do something about him. Probably nerf in his mana cost though as anything else nerfed wouldn't make much sense and/or destroy the cards identity otherwise.
Viscious is only powerful in this deck really so they won't touch this critter. On it's one its just a little beast that sees little play else were at best,
Just my two cents but my point is don't expect Blizzard to nerf Caverns a third time, won't happen. I love the card so I'm hoping really hard it won't happen personally but Giggling is the more logical/realistic choice for the next batch of nerfs.
I dont like kingsbane and Quest rogue. Personally I thing the problem card is preparation in both deck's. The card need to be made the next spell that cost 3 or less is free. the tempo gain by playing vanish for 3, quest for 2, blade flurry for 1 or sprint for 4 is big and it allow for other plays in the same turn.
The card is fine. It’s hard countered by aggro, which everyone plays beCause they are easier to play. You actually need to pilot it well or you need to have a solid mulligan to have any chance against remotely fast decks. As one poster said earlier, it is a necessary evil.
I hate the fact that if you Polymorph or Hex a minion after quest is played, they're 4/4...it's just stupid imo.
Also, playing Sonya at any point in the game is a back-breaking move for every opponent basically.
You can't stop the signal.
Short answer: yes, it is one of the worst designs in Hearthstone history and, rightfully so, one of the most hated.
There are some easy changes that would make it more "fair", in my opinion. Blizzard could change it so the aura only applies to the cards in your deck (not hand/board). Or they could change it from an aura to a normal buff, so it can be silenced.
Or they could address one of the main problems with the deck: infinite Zola the Gorgon via Death's Shadow. Simply change Zolas text so she only targets "other" cards (i.e. she cannot target herself).
Overall, I think Hearthstone should avoid extreme match-up disparities like the plague and Quest Rogue creates some of the worst examples.
I'm more optimistic that Blizzard will nerf it. Ixxar (Balance Team, not sure on the spelling) was on Thijs' stream recently and he implied they were looking at it.
Do you realize that you're being very contradictory on the 6 lines you wrote? First you say it's a necessary evil (Which I would kinda agree) then you say that QRogue kills control and control beats aggro and aggro kills QRogue, so you pretty much say that it's an infinite circle right? And then you say the solution is to print a bunch of "good" aggro card that can easily punish QRogue... At that point what difference does it make? If blizzard makes aggro insane then control with heavy early anti-aggro tech will rise a lot, which means combo decks get a lot better as well and then QRogue will once again be really good to stop those decks. That's definitely not the answer lol.
I would not go as far as to say it is the worst card ever designed, Quest Rogue is a very fun deck to play even if it is absolutely miserable from the other end. It's certainly up there though, decks that specifically target an archetype are good for the game, but Quest Rogue specifically has practically no counterplay. I would say the worst designed card would be something like pre-nerf Undertaker which universally takes away from the ability to play the game.
I'm not speaking from a card design view or a logistical view. Rather this is just my personal opinion.
The Caverns Below Rogue was/is my most HATED deck to ever play against and I've played this game for a while.
I've braved through the Flamewaker from Mech Mage, battled the Mysterious Challenger from the infamous Secret Paladin, charged forward from the disgusting play-style of Grim Patron Warrior, took it like a MAN when Shadowreaper Anduin machine-gunned by face to oblivion, and cried many, MANY tears as Jade Idol proceeded to single-handedly destroy me.
But, nothing... NOTHING made me more salty than when I lost to Quest Rogue. While I would agree that Jade Idol is the more poorly designed card, I still wanted to play more games after I lost to it. The Caverns Below Rogue is the only deck that actually made me stop playing for a while.
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Together with Jade Idol and Ice Block, yes it is.