One of the tests I like to do to see if a card is balanced is: What if your whole deck was that card? How good would that deck be?
To start off, let's take a look at what I might consider a Control Test:
Let's say your whole deck is Forbidden Ancient, except, we're going to make that card EVEN BETTER by making it cost (0). It's broken as a card because of it's versatility, but for the purposes of this experiment, it perfectly creates an opener where you play all your cards and use all your mana each turn and never hero power, which represents the perfect opener for an aggro deck.
What kind of result will you see?
Going first: Turn 1: 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 Turn 2: 3/3 Turn 3: 4/4 Turn 4: 5/5 And so on.
That will be our control result. They play 5 Mana worth of stuff on turn 1, and after that, whatever turn it is +1/+1. That's actually a pretty good opener.
Going first, you can play 1 on turn 1, 2 on turn 2, and 3 on turn 3, for a total of 6 cards, which you would have drawn by turn 3, then you topdeck a jade idol each turn and hero power. What does that do for you?
Turn 1: 1/1 Turn 2: 2/2 + 3/3 Turn 3: 4/4 + 5/5 + 6/6 Turn 4+: Play whatever turn it is +3/+3 (which includes the legendary 4 Mana 7/7) and Hero power.
Even if you don't hero power, you have ramped so absurdly high that you've played 21 Mana worth of stats by turn 3.
THAT"S INSANE!!!
But wait . . . Is it really insane? Let's compare it to our control perfect draw constructed aggro opener! We'll call Jades Player J and Forbidden Ancients Player F.
Let's say Jades go first.
Turn 1 Player J(30): 1/1 Turn 2 Player F(30): coin 3/3 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 Turn 3 Player J(30): 2/2+3/3 trade the 1/1 into another 1/1 Turn 4 Player F(30): 3/3 trade the 3/3 into the 2/2 and go face with the rest. Turn 5 Player J(27): 4/4 + 5/5 + 6/6 Trade 3/3 into a 1/1 Turn 6 Player F(30): Realizes his opponent will destroy his minions next turn and continually play bigger minions than him, preventing him from dealing more damage. Being nowhere close to lethal, Player F concedes.
Let's say Jades go second.
Turn 1 Player F(30): 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 Turn 2 Player J(30): coin 1/1 + 2/2 Turn 3 Player F(30): 3/3 trade 2/2 into 1/1 then face Turn 4 Player J(27): 3/3 + 4/4 trade 2/2 into 1/1 Turn 5 Player F(30): 4/4 trade 3/3 into 2/1 and go face. Turn 6 Player J(23): 5/5 + 6/6 + 7/7 Trade 4/4 into 3/1 and 3/3 into 2/1
Player J just super out-tempoed Player F, and player F can't recover and is nowhere near lethal. Player F concedes.
A constructed aggro opener with god draw didn't stand a chance.
So clearly Jade Idol is broken, and as long as it exists, Blizzard will never be able to use the 1 card deck Tavern Brawl. Maybe even 2 or 3 card deck is too busted with Jade!
Well, now we know that Jade Idol is broken, how much does it need to be nerfed in order to make it fair?
Let's try going to the next logical step and make it 2 Mana.
Turn 1: Pass Turn 2: 1/1 Turn 3: 2/2 Turn 4: 3/3 + 4/4 Turn 5: 5/5 + 6/6 Turn 6: 7/7 + 8/8 + 9/9 Turn 7+: Whatever turn it is, +3/+3 every turn, and hero power.
MAN! THAT'S INSANE TOO! But wait . . . Is that too slow for our cuntsructed aggro opener?
Let's say Jades go first.
Turn 1 Player J(30): Pass Turn 2 Player F(30): 2/2 coin 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 Turn 3 Player J(30): 1/1 Turn 4 Player F(30): 3/3 trade 2/1 into 1/1 and go face with the rest. Turn 5 Player J(27): 2/2 Turn 6 Player F(30): 4/4 trade into the 2/2 with the 3/3 and go face with the rest. Turn 7 Player J(20): 3/3 + 4/4 Turn 8 Player F(30): trade 3/1 into 3/3 then play 5/5 and go face with the rest. Turn 9 Player J(9): 5/5 + 6/6 Realizing that even with his really strong tempo play, he cannot stop lethal next turn, player J concedes.
RIP Jades.
Let's say Jades go second.
Turn 1 Player F(30): 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 Turn 2 Player J(30): Coin 1/1 Turn 3 Payer F(30): 3/3 He trades the 2/2 into the 1/1 and goes face with the rest. Turn 4 Player J(27): 2/2 Turn 5 Player F(30): 4/4 He trades the 3/3 into the 2/2 and goes face with the rest. Turn 6 Player J(22): 3/3 Turn 7 Player F(30): 5/5 He trades the 4/4 into the 3/3 and goes face with the rest. Turn 8 Player J(14): 4/4 + 5/5 Turn 9 Player F(30): Already has 7 minions so he can't play anything, and it looks like he has lethal on board so emote and go face!
Even the Golems are dead on turn 5 to constructed aggro whether going first or second. That is of course assuming that Jade Golem costs 2.
BUT IT DOESN"T!
This brings me to a secondary question: Is this really the power level we need our decks to be at? I mean just look at these games. There was minimal decision making, and for an experienced player, there was no decision making. Decks that are that strong just aren't fun to play. Really, are we in a game where whoever plays their hand out the fastest while using all of their mana will automatically win? If that's the case, it really is just all luck. You have to see if you can use all your mana crystals while playing all the cards in your hand.
But I guess that's why they don't let you put more than 2 of the same card in your deck. Because if they could, It would be very obvious which cards were bad.
I mean, in this example, If your deck is Jade Idol at 2 Mana, it only loses to super aggressive decks. In the mid game it has a huge tempo push, and has infinite late game(And GOOD late game at that!). I still feel like it's kinda too strong. IDK man. Jade Idol is like a combo card, but It combos with itself.
Idk what I was even trying to prove with this research. There's no point in telling them to stop making broken cards, because they released Un'goro. And I guess there's no point in saying Jade Idol is Overpowered, because you already knew that.
SO I GUESS THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS POINTLESS! Thanks for wasting your timeGGWP ME!
By your logic, Mind Blast would be imbalanced. But it isn't... :)
See, Mind Blast IS overpowered! Only slightly but still. Fair amounts are cost 1 and deal 3 or cost 3 and deal 6. at 2 Mana, deal 4 is slightly underpowered and deal 5 is slightly over. But I mean, for simplicity's sake they don't make a card that says (2): Deal 5 to enemy hero deal 1 to yours. Even though that's still pretty simple.
You sound like the that "full minion rebalance" guy. Yes, if every card were jade idol then it would be busted. But not every card is. You can't make evaluations in a vacuum, especially theoretical ones.
Jade Druid is a tier 2 deck. If it were really that broken it would be played more and win more. A great card in a mediocre deck does not need to be nerfed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Jade druid's only current purpose is to make aggro shaman and pirate warrior stronger by 1) being a good matchup for those 2 decks (both aggro shaman and pirate warrior are pretty favored vs jade druid, even after the nerfs) and 2) cockblocking any meaningful control deck from getting played.
One of the tests I like to do to see if a card is balanced is: What if your whole deck was that card? How good would that deck be?
To start off, let's take a look at what I might consider a Control Test:
Let's say your whole deck is Forbidden Ancient, except, we're going to make that card EVEN BETTER by making it cost (0). It's broken as a card because of it's versatility, but for the purposes of this experiment, it perfectly creates an opener where you play all your cards and use all your mana each turn and never hero power, which represents the perfect opener for an aggro deck.
What kind of result will you see?
Going first:
Turn 1: 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1
Turn 2: 3/3
Turn 3: 4/4
Turn 4: 5/5
And so on.
That will be our control result. They play 5 Mana worth of stuff on turn 1, and after that, whatever turn it is +1/+1. That's actually a pretty good opener.
Let's Now consider Jade Idol.
Going first, you can play 1 on turn 1, 2 on turn 2, and 3 on turn 3, for a total of 6 cards, which you would have drawn by turn 3, then you topdeck a jade idol each turn and hero power. What does that do for you?
Turn 1: 1/1
Turn 2: 2/2 + 3/3
Turn 3: 4/4 + 5/5 + 6/6
Turn 4+: Play whatever turn it is +3/+3 (which includes the legendary 4 Mana 7/7) and Hero power.
Even if you don't hero power, you have ramped so absurdly high that you've played 21 Mana worth of stats by turn 3.
THAT"S INSANE!!!
But wait . . . Is it really insane? Let's compare it to our control perfect draw constructed aggro opener! We'll call Jades Player J and Forbidden Ancients Player F.
Let's say Jades go first.
Turn 1 Player J(30): 1/1
Turn 2 Player F(30): coin 3/3 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1
Turn 3 Player J(30): 2/2+3/3 trade the 1/1 into another 1/1
Turn 4 Player F(30): 3/3 trade the 3/3 into the 2/2 and go face with the rest.
Turn 5 Player J(27): 4/4 + 5/5 + 6/6 Trade 3/3 into a 1/1
Turn 6 Player F(30): Realizes his opponent will destroy his minions next turn and continually play bigger minions than him, preventing him from dealing more damage. Being nowhere close to lethal, Player F concedes.
Let's say Jades go second.
Turn 1 Player F(30): 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1
Turn 2 Player J(30): coin 1/1 + 2/2
Turn 3 Player F(30): 3/3 trade 2/2 into 1/1 then face
Turn 4 Player J(27): 3/3 + 4/4 trade 2/2 into 1/1
Turn 5 Player F(30): 4/4 trade 3/3 into 2/1 and go face.
Turn 6 Player J(23): 5/5 + 6/6 + 7/7 Trade 4/4 into 3/1 and 3/3 into 2/1
Player J just super out-tempoed Player F, and player F can't recover and is nowhere near lethal. Player F concedes.
A constructed aggro opener with god draw didn't stand a chance.
So clearly Jade Idol is broken, and as long as it exists, Blizzard will never be able to use the 1 card deck Tavern Brawl. Maybe even 2 or 3 card deck is too busted with Jade!
Well, now we know that Jade Idol is broken, how much does it need to be nerfed in order to make it fair?
Let's try going to the next logical step and make it 2 Mana.
Turn 1: Pass
Turn 2: 1/1
Turn 3: 2/2
Turn 4: 3/3 + 4/4
Turn 5: 5/5 + 6/6
Turn 6: 7/7 + 8/8 + 9/9
Turn 7+: Whatever turn it is, +3/+3 every turn, and hero power.
MAN! THAT'S INSANE TOO! But wait . . . Is that too slow for our cuntsructed aggro opener?
Let's say Jades go first.
Turn 1 Player J(30): Pass
Turn 2 Player F(30): 2/2 coin 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1
Turn 3 Player J(30): 1/1
Turn 4 Player F(30): 3/3 trade 2/1 into 1/1 and go face with the rest.
Turn 5 Player J(27): 2/2
Turn 6 Player F(30): 4/4 trade into the 2/2 with the 3/3 and go face with the rest.
Turn 7 Player J(20): 3/3 + 4/4
Turn 8 Player F(30): trade 3/1 into 3/3 then play 5/5 and go face with the rest.
Turn 9 Player J(9): 5/5 + 6/6 Realizing that even with his really strong tempo play, he cannot stop lethal next turn, player J concedes.
RIP Jades.
Let's say Jades go second.
Turn 1 Player F(30): 2/2 + 1/1 + 1/1 + 1/1
Turn 2 Player J(30): Coin 1/1
Turn 3 Payer F(30): 3/3 He trades the 2/2 into the 1/1 and goes face with the rest.
Turn 4 Player J(27): 2/2
Turn 5 Player F(30): 4/4 He trades the 3/3 into the 2/2 and goes face with the rest.
Turn 6 Player J(22): 3/3
Turn 7 Player F(30): 5/5 He trades the 4/4 into the 3/3 and goes face with the rest.
Turn 8 Player J(14): 4/4 + 5/5
Turn 9 Player F(30): Already has 7 minions so he can't play anything, and it looks like he has lethal on board so emote and go face!
Even the Golems are dead on turn 5 to constructed aggro whether going first or second. That is of course assuming that Jade Golem costs 2.
BUT IT DOESN"T!
This brings me to a secondary question: Is this really the power level we need our decks to be at? I mean just look at these games. There was minimal decision making, and for an experienced player, there was no decision making. Decks that are that strong just aren't fun to play. Really, are we in a game where whoever plays their hand out the fastest while using all of their mana will automatically win? If that's the case, it really is just all luck. You have to see if you can use all your mana crystals while playing all the cards in your hand.
But I guess that's why they don't let you put more than 2 of the same card in your deck. Because if they could, It would be very obvious which cards were bad.
I mean, in this example, If your deck is Jade Idol at 2 Mana, it only loses to super aggressive decks. In the mid game it has a huge tempo push, and has infinite late game(And GOOD late game at that!). I still feel like it's kinda too strong. IDK man. Jade Idol is like a combo card, but It combos with itself.
Idk what I was even trying to prove with this research. There's no point in telling them to stop making broken cards, because they released Un'goro. And I guess there's no point in saying Jade Idol is Overpowered, because you already knew that.
SO I GUESS THIS WHOLE THREAD WAS POINTLESS! Thanks for wasting your timeGGWP ME!
I like to make cards and discuss game balance.
I enjoy when "No similar decks were found."
My latest deck: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1366184-scholomance-charge-rez-priest-wild
By your logic, Mind Blast would be imbalanced. But it isn't... :)
That'll do, Huffer. That'll do.
I'll take 30 Patches.
I like to make cards and discuss game balance.
I enjoy when "No similar decks were found."
My latest deck: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/1366184-scholomance-charge-rez-priest-wild
You sound like the that "full minion rebalance" guy. Yes, if every card were jade idol then it would be busted. But not every card is. You can't make evaluations in a vacuum, especially theoretical ones.
Jade Druid is a tier 2 deck. If it were really that broken it would be played more and win more. A great card in a mediocre deck does not need to be nerfed.
Anger is the punishment we give ourselves for someone else's mistake.
Jade druid's only current purpose is to make aggro shaman and pirate warrior stronger by 1) being a good matchup for those 2 decks (both aggro shaman and pirate warrior are pretty favored vs jade druid, even after the nerfs) and 2) cockblocking any meaningful control deck from getting played.
S39 Legend - Quest Rogue, S38 Legend - Murloc Paladin, S37 Legend - Miracle Rogue, S36 Top 200 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S35 - Finished Rank 51 Legend - Aggro Shaman, S34 Legend - Aggro Shaman