It feels like the only match-ups I want the card in are also the only match-ups that straight counter it. I don't think it is enjoyable to build an entire deck around a really fun flavorful card like C'thun, and have a single Hex/Polymorph/Entomb destroy the entire deck, especially when I feel like Blizzard created a tool for us that they intended to aid the deck in recovering after it had to play a desperation C'thun or the opponent just had an absurd life total/board state (Doomcaller being that tool.)
In the current iteration, Doomcaller will not shuffle a copy of your C'thun into your deck if he was eliminated in 1 of 3 ways. C'thun doesn't technically "Die" if he gets transformed into another creature (Hex/Polymorph), doesn't "die" if your opponent shuffles him into their OWN library, and doesn't "Die" if your opponent steals him (MC tech, Sylvanas, Mind Control). I propose that Blizzard re-word Doomcaller simply in a fashion that can allow a C'thun themed deck to still be based on C'thun.
I would propose that Doomcaller be re-worded to say "If your battlefield, hand, or deck do not contain a copy of C'thun, shuffle a copy of C'thun into your deck." This would allow the card to have the exact same function it has now, and still allow C'thun decks to play C'thun without just OTKing the opponent with him.
If people think that 3 classes having an ability that completely negates an archetype is justifiable, well...maybe you're right. I don't see C'thun dominating the Meta right now though, only Zoolock, Aggro Shaman, and Freeze Mage seem to be floating around the majority of the field. I don't think this "Fix" would be overpowered either, since you have to sink at least 28 mana and wait a minimum of 1 draw in order to play C'thun, Doomcaller, C'thun. Personally I think a 28 mana play that you are actually able to make before dying should win you the game.
Nah, it's okay as it is. If Patrons get wiped out, Grim Warrior is at a bad spot. If playing C'thun once doesn't win you the game, probably you didn't earn to win in the first place. In particular since you weren't able to bait out hex or polymorph. I'd say, everything is working as intended.
I would propose that Doomcaller be re-worded to say "If your battlefield, hand, or deck do not contain a copy of C'thun, shuffle a copy of C'thun into your deck." This would allow the card to have the exact same function it has now, and still allow C'thun decks to play C'thun without just OTKing the opponent with him.
So basically, give non-C'Thun decks a way to run C'Thun? Since you dont actually have to play the card anymore.
Honestly, I think the wording on the current Doomcaller is fine. It's alright for a card to have counters you know.
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CDC #34, #3.07, #3.08 and Mini Competition #1 Finalist --- Click on the images below to check out my different custom card threads!
Welcome to Hearthstone! The game you build your deck around an interesting card or 2 (or even 4 in grim patron/berserker) and they can be countered/removed or destroyed in a way that ruins your deck.
With a C'Thun deck, the general idea is C'Thun SHOULD finish your opponent off if he is your main threat. If he doesn't do the job, then you will probably lose that game (unless you have a spell or something else that will finish the job post C'Thun). With my yogg deck, if I can't finish them off with my tempo and spells to the face, then I may have to rely on Yogg to pull off something special and finish off the opponent- or at worse, give me a hand to have a chance at winning over the next turn or two. It helps to have multiple methods in which your deck wins the game. If you're singularly relying on C'Thun doing 20 or more damage to the face, you may need to rethink your strategy (Just my opinion but if you're running into issues winning with C'Thun, you may need an alternate way to finish the game.
I think that what OP means is that the intention of Doomcaller seems to be that you can include it in your deck for inevitability and as a mirror breaker (the way Elise works) and you're already paying a pretty big price by including him which is that he's a pretty bad and clunky creature that messes up your curve and sacrifices some of your early game (which suffers already). With stuff like Hex and Polymorph in the format Doomcaller doesn't give you that inevitability that you are paying him to give you which makes him a lot less cool than what he could have been.And I completely agree. Golden Monkey would not spawn new cool decks if the effect was a Deathrattle. Doomcaller just seems like a missed opportunity from a design perspective
I think that what OP means is that the intention of Doomcaller seems to be that you can include it in your deck for inevitability and as a mirror breaker (the way Elise works) and you're already paying a pretty big price by including him which is that he's a pretty bad and clunky creature that messes up your curve and sacrifices some of your early game (which suffers already). With stuff like Hex and Polymorph in the format Doomcaller doesn't give you that inevitability that you are paying him to give you which makes him a lot less cool than what he could have been.And I completely agree. Golden Monkey would not spawn new cool decks if the effect was a Deathrattle. Doomcaller just seems like a missed opportunity from a design perspective
8 mana 7/9 is pretty vanilla (but good stat distribution) as are all the other C'thun buffers. There are worse 8 mana minions. And if you want to play a greedy deck, you have to sacrifice something. if you can't manage to cope with three cards in the game, then maybe you should not play a C'thun deck. Doomcaller does what he is intended to. If you don't like Doomcaller, don't play him, if you want to play him, cope with what he does.
I think that what OP means is that the intention of Doomcaller seems to be that you can include it in your deck for inevitability and as a mirror breaker (the way Elise works) and you're already paying a pretty big price by including him which is that he's a pretty bad and clunky creature that messes up your curve and sacrifices some of your early game (which suffers already). With stuff like Hex and Polymorph in the format Doomcaller doesn't give you that inevitability that you are paying him to give you which makes him a lot less cool than what he could have been.And I completely agree. Golden Monkey would not spawn new cool decks if the effect was a Deathrattle. Doomcaller just seems like a missed opportunity from a design perspective
8 mana 7/9 is pretty vanilla (but good stat distribution) as are all the other C'thun buffers. There are worse 8 mana minions. And if you want to play a greedy deck, you have to sacrifice something. if you can't manage to cope with three cards in the game, then maybe you should not play a C'thun deck. Doomcaller does what he is intended to. If you don't like Doomcaller, don't play him, if you want to play him, cope with what he does.
Obviously. I only fooled around with C'Thun in the beginning and haven't played with him since. Still, you're aloud to voice your opinion on cards form a design perspective. We disagree on whether Doomcaller is underpowered, that's fair. But don't tell me what to or what not to do.
I just think it gets to a comical point when everyone complains about everything (and I don't mean you specifically but the combination of all the "nerf this" "meta is shit that" threads; this here is another one). And if people make it sound like something (in my opinion) pretty balanced is unfairly diminished in value, I just have the urge to give some counterstatements. Usually I can fight it, this time not.
No, this is not a nerf thread. This is a buff thread. But equally unnecessary. The card Dommcaller does exactly what is written on it. If your C'thun is transformed into a sheep and dies, a sheep died. Working as intended.
This card is balanced completely fine as it is. Shuffling it in if it was transformed would be stupid broken and if you don't realize that then you're probably not considering all the angles. Cards need to die to removal.
This card is balanced completely fine as it is. Shuffling it in if it was transformed would be stupid broken and if you don't realize that then you're probably not considering all the angles. Cards need to die to removal.
I agree that cards need to die to removal. Shield Slam, Execute, Big Game Hunter, any number of other hard removal spells can kill C'thun, and Doomcaller does not return him to the battlefield, it shuffles him back into the deck.
I admit that the re-wording I suggested would open up scenarios where decks not playing C'thun would be able to put him in the deck, however a 10 mana 6/6 C'thun that does not enable the other cards in the deck does not sound very threatening in my opinion.
You say that shuffling it in if it was transformed would be broken, I fail to see the difference between 1 hard removal spell and another. I am simply pointing out that as it stands Doomcaller was meant to be this really cool card that is flavorful and can give a way to outmaneuver opponents in heavy control matches. The Idea that C'thun is an immortal that keeps coming back when you kill him, that's what Doomcaller suggests to me. I mean, lvl 10 mages in WoW had Polymorph. I doubt he would have been a potent raid boss back in the day if that was all it took to do him in ;P
So you want the card that is alredy very hard to counter ( i played yesterday a sylvanas after cthun so i can take 15 dmg to the face but deny doomcaller, then stole him in a 50/50 scenario) to be impossible to counter??
And dont give me the "you can poly, entomb or hex it" since there are 6 other classes in the game.
Also, its already hard to counter cthun since you might just die as he shows up.
God plz just ask blizz to make you auto-win once the card is drawn.
This card is balanced completely fine as it is. Shuffling it in if it was transformed would be stupid broken and if you don't realize that then you're probably not considering all the angles. Cards need to die to removal.
I agree that cards need to die to removal. Shield Slam, Execute, Big Game Hunter, any number of other hard removal spells can kill C'thun, and Doomcaller does not return him to the battlefield, it shuffles him back into the deck.
I admit that the re-wording I suggested would open up scenarios where decks not playing C'thun would be able to put him in the deck, however a 10 mana 6/6 C'thun that does not enable the other cards in the deck does not sound very threatening in my opinion.
You say that shuffling it in if it was transformed would be broken, I fail to see the difference between 1 hard removal spell and another. I am simply pointing out that as it stands Doomcaller was meant to be this really cool card that is flavorful and can give a way to outmaneuver opponents in heavy control matches. The Idea that C'thun is an immortal that keeps coming back when you kill him, that's what Doomcaller suggests to me. I mean, lvl 10 mages in WoW had Polymorph. I doubt he would have been a potent raid boss back in the day if that was all it took to do him in ;P
I am unsure whether you know how C'thun works. The buffs won't go away when he dies. The buffs will stay and if you draw him a second time, he will still be the big threat (plus the buff from Doomcaller ). But that's fine, if you manage to pull him a second time. Equally, it is fine if you can't pull him a second time, because he didn't die.
On the other Hand, I can tell you the difference of hex/polymorph and shield slam: The first removal removes the minion from the game and replaces it with something else. The second removes it from the board and sets a marker that it has died (for a couple of Cards like Resurrect or Doomcaller). And it's perfectly fine that way. Just because it is a counter to your game plan, doesn't mean it is unfair.
And the bs comparison with wow: This is hearthstone. Different game, you know? It would also be unlikely that a bearded dwarf joins the raid and oneshots the old god in his sight with his blunderbuss... In hearthstone he can do so.
How do you fail to see the diffrence between removal spells?? When you poly or entomb tirion isnt it diffrent then shieldslaming his divine shield??
I mean is interacting with c'thun is the first time you ever played hs?
I suspect that my implications were not rationalized completely. When I said I failed to see the difference between removal spells I was regarding the concept of something "dying" in the game in general vs. transformations and shuffle into library effects. It was merely a commentary on how there is an entire archetype of decks that Blizzard went to great lengths to build into the game, and that archetype is a very slow building deck that can be outraced by virtually all decks if the pilots so chose to build their deck in the manner to do so.
As a long time MTG player, my preferred decks of choice were always decks that had a form of inevitability to them; if you let the deck get to the late game it was unbeatable, navigating to that stage of the game was the greatest challenge and most enjoyable part. In Hearthstone I've been playing Fatigue Warrior to multiple times Legend because currently fatigue is the only inevitable win con in this game. I imagined that C'thun would be a similar archetype.
It feels like the only match-ups I want the card in are also the only match-ups that straight counter it. I don't think it is enjoyable to build an entire deck around a really fun flavorful card like C'thun, and have a single Hex/Polymorph/Entomb destroy the entire deck, especially when I feel like Blizzard created a tool for us that they intended to aid the deck in recovering after it had to play a desperation C'thun or the opponent just had an absurd life total/board state (Doomcaller being that tool.)
In the current iteration, Doomcaller will not shuffle a copy of your C'thun into your deck if he was eliminated in 1 of 3 ways. C'thun doesn't technically "Die" if he gets transformed into another creature (Hex/Polymorph), doesn't "die" if your opponent shuffles him into their OWN library, and doesn't "Die" if your opponent steals him (MC tech, Sylvanas, Mind Control). I propose that Blizzard re-word Doomcaller simply in a fashion that can allow a C'thun themed deck to still be based on C'thun.
I would propose that Doomcaller be re-worded to say "If your battlefield, hand, or deck do not contain a copy of C'thun, shuffle a copy of C'thun into your deck." This would allow the card to have the exact same function it has now, and still allow C'thun decks to play C'thun without just OTKing the opponent with him.
If people think that 3 classes having an ability that completely negates an archetype is justifiable, well...maybe you're right. I don't see C'thun dominating the Meta right now though, only Zoolock, Aggro Shaman, and Freeze Mage seem to be floating around the majority of the field. I don't think this "Fix" would be overpowered either, since you have to sink at least 28 mana and wait a minimum of 1 draw in order to play C'thun, Doomcaller, C'thun. Personally I think a 28 mana play that you are actually able to make before dying should win you the game.
My Fatigue List I made legend with : http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/359140-s20-legend-reno-true-fatigue-warrior
Don't forget about Molten Giant. After reading Molten Giant's effect, I never topdeck'd Fireball ever again...
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Nah, it's okay as it is. If Patrons get wiped out, Grim Warrior is at a bad spot. If playing C'thun once doesn't win you the game, probably you didn't earn to win in the first place. In particular since you weren't able to bait out hex or polymorph. I'd say, everything is working as intended.
CDC #34, #3.07, #3.08 and Mini Competition #1 Finalist ---
Click on the images below to check out my different custom card threads!
Welcome to Hearthstone! The game you build your deck around an interesting card or 2 (or even 4 in grim patron/berserker) and they can be countered/removed or destroyed in a way that ruins your deck.
With a C'Thun deck, the general idea is C'Thun SHOULD finish your opponent off if he is your main threat. If he doesn't do the job, then you will probably lose that game (unless you have a spell or something else that will finish the job post C'Thun). With my yogg deck, if I can't finish them off with my tempo and spells to the face, then I may have to rely on Yogg to pull off something special and finish off the opponent- or at worse, give me a hand to have a chance at winning over the next turn or two. It helps to have multiple methods in which your deck wins the game. If you're singularly relying on C'Thun doing 20 or more damage to the face, you may need to rethink your strategy (Just my opinion but if you're running into issues winning with C'Thun, you may need an alternate way to finish the game.
why not just change cthun to a 0 mana 1/1 with battlecry: you win that you can have 30 copies of?
I think that what OP means is that the intention of Doomcaller seems to be that you can include it in your deck for inevitability and as a mirror breaker (the way Elise works) and you're already paying a pretty big price by including him which is that he's a pretty bad and clunky creature that messes up your curve and sacrifices some of your early game (which suffers already). With stuff like Hex and Polymorph in the format Doomcaller doesn't give you that inevitability that you are paying him to give you which makes him a lot less cool than what he could have been.And I completely agree. Golden Monkey would not spawn new cool decks if the effect was a Deathrattle. Doomcaller just seems like a missed opportunity from a design perspective
Fair enough.
I just think it gets to a comical point when everyone complains about everything (and I don't mean you specifically but the combination of all the "nerf this" "meta is shit that" threads; this here is another one). And if people make it sound like something (in my opinion) pretty balanced is unfairly diminished in value, I just have the urge to give some counterstatements. Usually I can fight it, this time not.
No, this is not a nerf thread. This is a buff thread. But equally unnecessary. The card Dommcaller does exactly what is written on it. If your C'thun is transformed into a sheep and dies, a sheep died. Working as intended.
This card is balanced completely fine as it is. Shuffling it in if it was transformed would be stupid broken and if you don't realize that then you're probably not considering all the angles. Cards need to die to removal.
My Fatigue List I made legend with : http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/359140-s20-legend-reno-true-fatigue-warrior
How about simply:
"Put C'Thun into your deck (wherever he is)"
...just pay me over paypal, blizzard.
So you want the card that is alredy very hard to counter ( i played yesterday a sylvanas after cthun so i can take 15 dmg to the face but deny doomcaller, then stole him in a 50/50 scenario) to be impossible to counter??
And dont give me the "you can poly, entomb or hex it" since there are 6 other classes in the game.
Also, its already hard to counter cthun since you might just die as he shows up.
God plz just ask blizz to make you auto-win once the card is drawn.
How do you fail to see the diffrence between removal spells?? When you poly or entomb tirion isnt it diffrent then shieldslaming his divine shield??
I mean is interacting with c'thun is the first time you ever played hs?
My Fatigue List I made legend with : http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/359140-s20-legend-reno-true-fatigue-warrior